NFC West

[deep9er]

Just noticed that. I don't understand why these guys - especially the first round picks and highly-paid vets - don't just call a cab or get a car service.

i agree....VERY good question.

i'm guessing its all about "showing off" in public? driving around in a dazzling SUV or luxury car? were they out alone with the guys, or on dates?

 

[Bemular]

i didn't say its the same bonus and i didn't say the roster bonus was guaranteed. so maybe you're the one confusing yourself?

and talking down to others doesn't make you any smarter, it makes you lose respect. if you're so smart you'd know that already......so grow up.....if possible?

the Rams took a calculated risk and they're STILL working on it now, the financial part. it appears they're NOT low balling Jenkins, but just protecting themselves on paying it out.

being drafted in the 2nd round isn't setting a fine, they'd ask for the same protection whether round 1, 3, or 4. the numbers would change but they'd still seek protection in how its paid out.

being drafted in round 2 doesn't clear all his past character issues, and it doesn't remove future risk. when you have a history like he does, you first have to prove yourself clean, not get paid because you SAID you're clean.

did you guys really think Jenkins wouldn't get a 'standard' 2nd round contract? that the Rams wouldn't seek any protections?

Grow-up? That's funny Deep. You chose to take as degrading my post asking you if what I said made sense. Neither my post nor my question were degrading - both were sincere.

Irrespective, of this fact YOU chose to respond mockingly - like a nine-year. So perhaps you should look in the mirror before accusing others of needing to grow-up.

I've read the posts by Three, Crimson & Bingo and there seems to be a consensus on at least the ethicality (to mention nothing of the legality) of what StL is trying to do. You disagree and think it is appropriate - that's fine.

 

[deep9er]

Grow-up? That's funny Deep. You chose to take as degrading my post asking you if what I said made sense. Neither my post nor my question were degrading - both were sincere.

Irrespective, of this fact YOU chose to respond mockingly - like a nine-year. So perhaps you should look in the mirror before accusing others of needing to grow-up.

I've read the posts by Three, Crimson & Bingo and there seems to be a consensus on at least the ethicality (to mention nothing of the legality) of what StL is trying to do. You disagree and think it is appropriate - that's fine.

i'll just let your own post talk for you, is the below sincere or 'talking down"?

Aaah, no, not one word of your response makes any sense whatsoever - not even a little. You are still confused between what a signing bonus and a roster bonus is. Good behavior does not guarantee a roster bonus so stop saying all he has to do is "stay clean" to get his roster bonus - that is just dumb.

Jenkins fell out of the first round due to his character issues, this was widely publicized; obviously, you were unaware of this. Something else you are obviously unaware of is when a player falls out of the first round due to character issues he loses a lot of money - typically millions.

This financial loss is his debt payment or his fine for his poor college bed making. What and who determines how much his debt should be is where he is eventually drafted and the team that drafts him. Thus, StL determined his fine should be 39th overall pick; but, now, they want to say, no, it actually should be something lower - fuck them!

AGAIN, if StL felt he should have paid a higher debt then they could have either A: traded back and taken him farther down the board where the signing bonus would have been much less or B: not drafted him at all.

its also compelling that you're saying i responded mockingly? if so, go ahead and re-post where i mocked you? where did i said you make no sense? that you're confused? that its just dumb? that you're obviously unaware of? go ahead......i dare you.

regarding the risk topic at hand, i said from from post 1 it IS an issue. but IMO its not as one sided against Jenkins. Jenkins has a tainted history and being drafted in round 2 doesn't erase the risk. if it was YOUR $2M, would you give all of it to him now? or would you try to protect your money over time?

 

[Bemular]

i'll just let your own post talk for you, is the below sincere or 'talking down"?

Aaah, no, not one word of your response makes any sense whatsoever - not even a little. You are still confused between what a signing bonus and a roster bonus is. Good behavior does not guarantee a roster bonus so stop saying all he has to do is "stay clean" to get his roster bonus - that is just dumb.

Jenkins fell out of the first round due to his character issues, this was widely publicized; obviously, you were unaware of this. Something else you are obviously unaware of is when a player falls out of the first round due to character issues he loses a lot of money - typically millions.

This financial loss is his debt payment or his fine for his poor college bed making. What and who determines how much his debt should be is where he is eventually drafted and the team that drafts him. Thus, StL determined his fine should be 39th overall pick; but, now, they want to say, no, it actually should be something lower - fuck them!

AGAIN, if StL felt he should have paid a higher debt then they could have either A: traded back and taken him farther down the board where the signing bonus would have been much less or B: not drafted him at all.

its also compelling that you're saying i responded mockingly? if so, go ahead and re-post where i mocked you? where did i said you make no sense? that you're confused? that its just dumb? that you're obviously unaware of? go ahead......i dare you.

regarding the risk topic at hand, i said from from post 1 it IS an issue. but IMO its not as one sided against Jenkins. Jenkins has a tainted history and being drafted in round 2 doesn't erase the risk. if it was YOUR $2M, would you give all of it to him now? or would you try to protect your money over time?

Why would you begin with #345 when I was referring to my post #341? The post where I provided you information and perspective according to your previous posts and questions then asked at the end of that post if what I said made sense.

The point of my asking if what I said made sense was to engage in conversation and was not at all intended as an insult or sarcasm. If you wish to review my posts prior to #341, you will see no confrontation in my responses whatsoever.

However, in your response, (#344) rather than expressing whether what I had said did or did not make sense, you instead chose to demonstrate a mocking overtone with your response about my having asked the question in the first place.

Now that we are all caught-up to where you chose to begin THIS conversation, and now that we understand the impetus behind the response you are quoting here, let's examine more closely my response to see if you have any ground upon which to make your claim that I talked down to you.

Did your response make any sense at all as you suggested it did?

No, not one bit, none whatsoever not even close – I sincerely hope that is clear. Therefore, was I talking down to you when I said it did not many any sense? Nope.

Are you confused about what a signing bonus and what a roster bonus is and the defining characteristics of each??

Based on your repeated responses in this thread I believe you are thoroughly confused by the concepts of both a signing bonus and a roster bonus. Again, not talking down to you.

Were you aware that Jenkins fell in the draft due to his character issues and that the money he lost as a result of that fall is directly tied to the punitive charges for his poor bed making in college?

Absolutely not! You continue to demonstrate an incapacity for associating these two directly linked events. Yep, no down talking here either.

So, in summary, while you may not like my response to your post and while you might take offense to it, I have expressed only the truth as YOU have demonstrated it to be.

Now, in the future if you would like me to forego trying to have a conversation with you and in the interest of saving you time just jump right to calling you an idiot so you can have something legitimate to bitch about - no problem. You just let me know what works best for you.

In a final attempt to help you understand what has been explained to you several times by several posters in this thread. I'll see if you can reveal your own inanity by answering your own question:

How would YOU protect a $2m SIGNING BONUS over time?

 

[deep9er]

Why would you begin with #345 when I was referring to my post #341? The post where I provided you information and perspective according to your previous posts and questions then asked at the end of that post if what I said made sense.

The point of my asking if what I said made sense was to engage in conversation and was not at all intended as an insult or sarcasm. If you wish to review my posts prior to #341, you will see no confrontation in my responses whatsoever.

However, in your response, (#344) rather than expressing whether what I had said did or did not make sense, you instead chose to demonstrate a mocking overtone with your response about my having asked the question in the first place.

Now that we are all caught-up to where you chose to begin THIS conversation, and now that we understand the impetus behind the response you are quoting here, let's examine more closely my response to see if you have any ground upon which to make your claim that I talked down to you.

Did your response make any sense at all as you suggested it did?

No, not one bit, none whatsoever not even close – I sincerely hope that is clear. Therefore, was I talking down to you when I said it did not many any sense? Nope.

Are you confused about what a signing bonus and what a roster bonus is and the defining characteristics of each??

Based on your repeated responses in this thread I believe you are thoroughly confused by the concepts of both a signing bonus and a roster bonus. Again, not talking down to you.

Were you aware that Jenkins fell in the draft due to his character issues and that the money he lost as a result of that fall is directly tied to the punitive charges for his poor bed making in college?

Absolutely not! You continue to demonstrate an incapacity for associating these two directly linked events. Yep, no down talking here either.

So, in summary, while you may not like my response to your post and while you might take offense to it, I have expressed only the truth as YOU have demonstrated it to be.

Now, in the future if you would like me to forego trying to have a conversation with you and in the interest of saving you time just jump right to calling you an idiot so you can have something legitimate to bitch about - no problem. You just let me know what works best for you.

In a final attempt to help you understand what has been explained to you several times by several posters in this thread. I'll see if you can reveal your own inanity by answering your own question:

How would YOU protect a $2m SIGNING BONUS over time?

ok let me summarize:

1. you start off sincere ($341), but then you start talking down pretty quickly, being condenscening in #345.
2. i tell you "talking down" isn't necessary, cause it makes you lose respect. [btw - you've already done it to others]
3. you flat out say you weren't condescending, even accusing me of being the 9 year old.
4. i re-post the clear evidence where YOU were condenscending. it was very clear in numurous sentences.
5. you're not able to re-post where i acted like a 9 year old, so you harshly accuse me of something, but have absolutely no evidence. you flat out lied by saying i acted immaturely, like a 9 year old.
6. above you start off by saying its #341, as though #345 can now be erased, as though #345 never happened.
7. above you're answering to your own post......in detail??!! i guess talking to yourself justifies your actions....in YOUR own mind. who is the one thats insane answering his own post? think about it a little bit, why did you do it to begin with? just remember answering your own post is you talking, not me.
8. above, you're still being condenscending all the while saying you're not.
9. you keep talking about a roster bonus and signing bonus when it wasn't even mentioned in the original article. ie you made it up but worse, you keep insisting i don't understand it? a signing bonus doesn't include a roster bonus, so who's not understanding 'signing bonus' in the first place?
10. you avoid my question which is the real issue at hand? because you already know you can't answer the question, at least not honestly. my answer has been clear from post 1, so why the ploy to throw it back at me?

you're always trying to use fancy talk to make you look smart. but most people here look past the fancy words, fancy grammer, tough talk, etc.. in the end, your own posting speaks for itself.

expressing an opinion isn't "telling the truth", whereas i posted clear evidence you're condescending. so who's REALLY telling the truth?

the ironic thing is........i think you had good things to say.....until you get into this "placing yourself up on a pedestal" mode......too bad. anyways, it ends here, cause you've already convinced yourself what you said on my behalf is what i said too.

 

[MHSL82]

AMERICAN CENTURY CHAMPIONSHIP | Alex Smith reunites with college coach at celebrity golf | TahoeDailyTribune.com

Edit: This was more of an Off-season thread article or ESPN Refugee BS thread, but what the hell.

 

[MHSL82]

I ran across these numbers today and thought I would pass it along, along with my thoughts and disclaimers.

People say that Alex is not good at the deep ball. I think the following numbers show that he has potential to be much better in the future. He's obviously not a deep ball passer, as he does it so infrequently. Traditionally, he pulls the trigger when the guy is going to be open not when he's covered, which leaves potential plays on the field and also saves potential INTs. If he knows his arm, being smart about it is more fruitful. But I think he could trust it more. We have a great running team and defenses don't exactly respect our deep ball game, so when we do it, it's more surprising and therefore, more efficient. But I think we could afford to take more shots down the field without hurting our run game or alerting defenses to shut it down. Be opportunistic with a touch of aggressiveness (something we lacked last year until we needed it) and we should improve. The following quote shows the completion percentage, which is always lower for deep ball throws, yards, TD/INT ratios, and rating of 20+ passes:

THROWS OF 20-PLUS YARDS IN 2011 (includes playoff games)
(From Pro Football Focus)

AARON RODGERS, Packers (16 games): 129.1 QB rating
33 of 66, 1,264 yards, 14 TD, 1 INT

MATT SCHAUB, Texans (10 games): 125.3
14 of 37, 499 yards, 5 TD, 0 INT

TONY ROMO, Cowboys (16 games): 123.8
32 of 61, 1,166 yards, 13 TD, 2 INT

ALEX SMITH, 49ers (18 games): 111.4
21 of 51, 723 yards, 6 TD, 2 INT

MATTHEW STAFFORD, Lions (17 games): 107.8
34 of 83, 1,187, 12 TD, 4 INT

DREW BREES, Saints (18 games): 107.3
44 of 86, 1,187 yards, 20 TD, 6 INT

ELI MANNING, Giants (20 games): 103.2
49 of 123, 1,675 yards, 15 TD, 7 INT

CAM NEWTON, Panthers (16 games): 92.6
33 of 89, 1,149 yards, 7 TD, 4 INT

PHILIP RIVERS, Chargers (16 games): 91.4
28 of 75 935 yards, 12 TD, 6 INT

TOM BRADY, Patriots (19 games): 87.7
23 of 73, 746 yards, 10 TD, 4 INT

JOE FLACCO, Ravens (18 games): 81.8
25 of 88, 816 yards, 8 TD, 3 INT

BEN ROETHLISBERGER, Steelers (16 games): 77.5
24 of 75, 818 yards, 7 TD, 5 INT

MICHAEL VICK, Eagles (13 games): 77.2
24 of 58, 769 yards, 3 TD, 4 INT

JAY CUTLER, Bears (10 games): 77.0
14 of 37, 425 yards, 2 TD, 2 INT

MATT RYAN, Falcons (17 games): 69.3
16 of 63, 518 yards, 4 TD, 2 INT

The perception is that Alex throws short deep ball passes, but as far as YPA, shown below, he's pretty high. Again, these are with limited attempts, great running team, etc. More unpredictable down field attacks lead to more opportunities to be efficient with the ball. We could continue this and improve. Likely the TDs and INTs both go up the more we do it and the percentage may not increase much (Alex is not Rodgers) but we may have better yards per attempt (because an INT is the same number of attempts as a completion or incomplete pass, but further more efficient passes will increase the yards). I don't think we'll attempt enough passes to differ much from last year quality wise (Brees is lower because he takes more risky passes, something I doubt changes much this year with Smith), more quantity may help.

Rodgers 19.15
Romo 19.11
Stafford 14.30
Smith 14.18
Brees 13.80
E.Manning 13.62
Schaub 13.49
Newton 12.91
Rivers 12.47
Vick 11.49
Cutler 11.49
Roethlisberger 10.91
Brady 10.22
Flacco 9.27
Ryan 8.22

Alex's big plays are bigger than most QBs, it just happens so infrequently. If Alex can complete a higher percentage, these numbers may go down (as it would likely be more shorter passes), but the yards per attempt would go up (due to getting some more yards per short throw than incomplete longer throws), depending on how far we choose to throw. Efficiency again.

Rogers 38.30
Romo 36.44
Schaub 35.64
Stafford 34.91
Newton 34.82
Smith 34.43
Manning 34.18
Rivers 33.39
Flacco 32.64
Brady 32.43
Ryan 32.38
Roethlisberger 34.08
Vick 32.04
Cutler 30.36
Brees 26.98

So, I guess my point is, we have a system and complimentary players that allow Smith to not fall to where Cutler, Vick, and Ryan were last year under similar number of attempts. If Smith can grow naturally at it (not requiring a big leap) and increase our attempts, we may be on to something. Smith is still not a deep ball QB but it could be worse and people talk about it as if it were.

 

[MHSL82]

Just for completeness - Completion percentage:

Tony Romo 52.5%
Drew Brees 51.2%
Aaron Rodgers 50.0%
Michael Vick 41.4%
Alex Smith 41.2%
Matthew Stafford 40.96%
Eli Manning 39.8%
Matt Schaub 37.8%
Jay Cutler 37.8%
Phillip Rivers 37.3%
Cam Newton 37.0%
Ben Roethlesberger 32.0%
Tom Brady 31.5%
Joe Flacco 28.4%
Matt Ryan 25.4%

 

[MHSL82]

Oh, before I forget, these throws are for 20+ yards, not 20 yard completions, meaning a short slant that turns into a 30 yard gain is not considered here, only actual passes going 20 yards through the air.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Those numbers don't square with ESPN's numbers.

Alex Smith Stats, Splits - San Francisco 49ers - ESPN

According to those numbers, on passes of 20+ yards, Smith was 13 of 36 for 457 yards, 3 TDs and 1 INT. That's a completion % of 36.1% and 12.7 YPA. That's regular season, and obviously Smith had several longer throws to Davis in the playoffs, but those numbers still seem to differ a bit.

The biggest complaint about Smith's deep passing, and I have been one to level some of those, is his deep passing down the sidelines. He's great throwing the seam pass to Davis, and he does alright on comebacks and crosses. He has tended to struggle with the go route to his WRs. He rarely hits guys over the shoulder in stride.

 

[MHSL82]

Those numbers don't square with ESPN's numbers.

Alex Smith Stats, Splits - San Francisco 49ers - ESPN

According to those numbers, on passes of 20+ yards, Smith was 13 of 36 for 457 yards, 3 TDs and 1 INT. That's a completion % of 36.1% and 12.7 YPA. That's regular season, and obviously Smith had several longer throws to Davis in the playoffs, but those numbers still seem to differ a bit.

The biggest complaint about Smith's deep passing, and I have been one to level some of those, is his deep passing down the sidelines. He's great throwing the seam pass to Davis, and he does alright on comebacks and crosses. He has tended to struggle with the go route to his WRs. He rarely hits guys over the shoulder in stride.

Hmm. I got these numbers from someone else, so my fault. I don't know where the guy got it, what his criteria is, I quoted him because it said it was from Pro-football Focus.

I take it back if the numbers are wrong.

 

[MHSL82]

I looked at Rodgers to see if those numbers would align with what I quoted, but they didn't.

If you guys haven't already done so, completely disregard what I posted. I shouldn't quote blindly on supposed PFF stats. Could a moderator delete the posts so that no one mis-takes it as true? I suppose no one's looking at it, but this is how bad stuff gets spread.

Maybe the slants that do go 30 yards do count, here. Which this wouldn't say anything about deep ball passes, just over all efficiency of the good plays. But it then wouldn't include short passes that go for short yards of INC for short. Arghh! Not reliable at all. Sorry guys.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Whatever, no sense in deleting it altogether. But I think there's a good chance it's all 20+ yard completions rather than 20+ in the air.

 

[MHSL82]

Whatever, no sense in deleting it altogether. But I think there's a good chance it's all 20+ yard completions rather than 20+ in the air.

:SMH: @ myself. I'm pretty sure it did include short passes that went 20+ yards. That person is now on my "do not quote list" and I will also fact check a bit more. FWIW, ESPN says he had a 100.5 rating on the 20+ in the air passes. I won't do other players because the point is still the same. I think we can get better and while people like the guy I quoted exaggerate how good he was, people exaggerate how poor he was with the deep ball. There were some games where he was struggling with the sideline pass even more than usual and we don't do it often, but it's not as bad as some make it out to be. Seams are his thing and Davis is king. I wouldn't have brought it up out of the blue if the false numbers hadn't surprised me.

 

[BINGO]

2012 Rams season begins; Rams fans slowly thawing out | Preseason

 

[MHSL82]

Great Joe Montana reference.

And a little off tipic, but I believe there is (or was with the previous CBA) that if a player holds out on a contract, the team can try to recoup some of the signing bonuses they were given. THis happened when Ricky Williams retired from the Dolphins, and also I think Detroit went after some of Rogers' bonus (the Michigan St. Wide receiver.. I can't think of his first name). I don't know if the new CBA changed this or not, but there is precedence to go ofter some of the money these guys have already been paid.

Given the argument over signing bonus and roster bonus and the addition of your post (to the other thread), I wanted to add the following link. It doesn't change anything anyone's said so I'm not arguing with anyone here. This has nothing to do with protections teams put in contracts, because if they could reclaim it, what's the point of lowering a contract to punish bad bed making in college? If something happens, just reclaim it. (Of course, the contract has to allow that, but isn't that standard?)

Q: Please explain what is meant by the term "guaranteed." Does guaranteed mean unconditionally guaranteed, conditionally guaranteed, or a combination of both conditions? (Mark Walsh)

In my world, guaranteed means guaranteed. But in recent years, that meaning has become a lot more hazy when it comes to NFL contracts.

Each contract can be different. Typically, a signing bonus is fully guaranteed (unless the player does something out of the ordinary to prompt the team to reclaim a portion of it). And when a high-profile player signs a multi-year deal, the first year or two of base salaries might also be guaranteed.

Most contracts now can contain guarantees for skill, cap, or injury. Some of these deals use the term "total guarantee" even though some of that money is not guaranteed at all.

49ers Mailbag: Who's in line for extension?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/07/23/training-camp-battles-nfc-west/

 

[MHSL82]

Good Overseas Perspective on Harbaugh and the Niners of the Last Ten Years.

 

[threelittleturds]

Good Overseas Perspective on Harbaugh and the Niners of the Last Ten Years.

Damn impressive that someone from England remained a 49ers fan through all that crap and only 3 good years up until last year. Most young fans would have bailed in 99 when the wheels came off.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

However, after an extremely short coaching search, and drama to rival The Bachelor (incidentally, our most successful coach in the time I’ve been watching before Harbaugh, Steve Mariucci, was reportedly fired while watching this show), a new hope was hired.

I found this interesting. I would have gone with, "Incidentally, former Bachelor Jesse Palmer made a brief appearance on the team in 2005," personally.