My Top 25 Current NBA Players

[HurricaneDij39]

How is pointing out 3 point percentage a nitpick? You're cherry picking way more than I have in my assessment of Kawhi. We're comparing two of the elite players in the NBA, but you throw in a comparison about a role player who shoots better? C'mon man, I hope you would be better than that.

So we should knock LeBron James for being a lesser three-point shooter than C.J. Miles??? If you want to nitpick with advanced stats, then fine, but we had a panel of voters agree that Westbrook was more valuable to his team than Kawhi, who greatly benefited from having arguably the greatest coach ever in his corner. And to me, the most important stat was that his team was 33-9 when he had a triple-double...14-26 when he didn't.

Also with respect to Westbrook, the guy had 1 season(JUST 1) not playing with a top 5 player in the NBA on his team. When the Warriors had 73 wins, people were still saying that OKC had the better overall roster. His game was still the exact same as it was then as it was last year. The only difference is that he didn't have to defer to anyone or share the alpha role. His numbers inflated, but his success did not.

Who the hell said the 2016 Thunder were better than GS??? To me I saw two elite players and a lot of misfits that other teams have given up on, such as Waiters and Kanter. I've said it before and I'll say it 1000 times again, to place the entire blame on Westbrook for losing those conference is like a spoiled junior high kid pointing a finger at a fellow classmate. If Dion Waiters is your third playmaker, that's not a very good recipe for a title, is it? What happened was they became extremely iso-heavy around their two superstars and their offense stagnated as the series progressed as a result. It was a roster flaw, not an individual flaw.

 

[tlance]

So who on the Spurs was better? Was it LaMarcus? He was a total non-factor in the conference finals as well as late in the regular season. Maybe Jonathan Simmons and Dwyane Dedmon? Let's see how they do with their new teams, but they scream "Pop product" to me. If anything they played their best in that Game 6 when Kawhi was out. Tony Parker - old and injury-prone. Ginobili washed up.

Point being, if you're going to bash Westbrook for not helping his teammates, you better hold other superstar players to the same damn standard.

Way to reply 2 weeks later.

It is a fact of basketball that you would understand if you had ever played basketball. But you haven't.

Guys who hold the ball like Russ are extremely difficult to play with. Kawhi is the opposite. He doesn't ever force shots. He always makes the right play. He is the consummate teammate. While that doesn't elevate teammates in the obvious way like LeBron does, it is far easier to play with a guy like Leonard than a guy like Russ. It is not something that can be explained with stats. You either have the experience to recognize it or you don't.

 

[CitySushi]

So we should knock LeBron James for being a lesser three-point shooter than C.J. Miles??? If you want to nitpick with advanced stats, then fine, but we had a panel of voters agree that Westbrook was more valuable to his team than Kawhi, who greatly benefited from having arguably the greatest coach ever in his corner. And to me, the most important stat was that his team was 33-9 when he had a triple-double...14-26 when he didn't.


Who the hell said the 2016 Thunder were better than GS??? To me I saw two elite players and a lot of misfits that other teams have given up on, such as Waiters and Kanter. I've said it before and I'll say it 1000 times again, to place the entire blame on Westbrook for losing those conference is like a spoiled junior high kid pointing a finger at a fellow classmate. If Dion Waiters is your third playmaker, that's not a very good recipe for a title, is it? What happened was they became extremely iso-heavy around their two superstars and their offense stagnated as the series progressed as a result. It was a roster flaw, not an individual flaw.

First off, what the hell are you talking about with Lebron James and CJ Miles? Dude, when you get something in your head you just keep regurgitating the same stuff without trying to comprehend what I'm saying. When you're comparing two elite players, the details matter. When you're comparing one elite player and one role player and you point out a singular thing the role player does better than the elite player and say the role player is better, it's cherry picking.

How do you not understand this? Shit why don't you just compare Dame Lillard to Tony Allen and declare Tony Allen the better player because he's such a great defender? See it doesn't work that way does it? But if you compare John Wall and Dame Lillard, defense can actually be a factor in deciding who you think might be better. Or vice versa you can include 3 point shooting as a factor in deciding.

I think we can both agree that Kawhi and Westbrook are elite right? They are both top 6 players in the NBA at worst. So when you're comparing them, you need to break down how they affect their respective teams. Also the MVP award does not go to the better player. It never has, in the history of the league. So you pointing out a panel of voters who selected him as the MVP is just dumb. It's like me coming on here and declaring that Steph Curry was the best player in the NBA and more valuable to his team in his two MVP seasons than Lebron was to his. Nope...he was not.

With respects to the second part, the Thunder had two guys by the name of Steven Adams and Serge Ibaka. Those guys are pretty good, IMO. Last point, you said the team became very ISO heavy which is why they lost the game. When one of your superstars is iso heavy, and also happens to be the point guard of your team, blame is much easier to shift. I'm not saying EVERYONE was saying the Thunder were better, but there were commentators who mentioned that the Thunder had a deeper team and/or possibly more talent. The problem for the Thunder would simply be putting it together against a cohesive monster like the Warriors.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

Way to reply 2 weeks later.

It is a fact of basketball that you would understand if you had ever played basketball. But you haven't.

Guys who hold the ball like Russ are extremely difficult to play with. Kawhi is the opposite. He doesn't ever force shots. He always makes the right play. He is the consummate teammate. While that doesn't elevate teammates in the obvious way like LeBron does, it is far easier to play with a guy like Leonard than a guy like Russ. It is not something that can be explained with stats. You either have the experience to recognize it or you don't.

I'll replay whenever the fuck I feel like it. It's a message board and I'm not obligated to respond to you by a certain date and time. So Russ holds the ball...No shit sherlock. He's the PG and that's what point guards generally do...handle the ball, especially now in the modern NBA. You say he forces shots, but I'ld want him to take those shots over some of the guys they had on that roster.

33-9 when he records a triple-double. Take Russ off the Thunder and they'd compete for a top 5 pick playing in the western conference. Take Leonard off the Spurs and Pop will still find a way to make them a contender. See the Game 6 demolition in Houston.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

With respects to the second part, the Thunder had two guys by the name of Steven Adams and Serge Ibaka. Those guys are pretty good, IMO. Last point, you said the team became very ISO heavy which is why they lost the game. When one of your superstars is iso heavy, and also happens to be the point guard of your team, blame is much easier to shift. I'm not saying EVERYONE was saying the Thunder were better, but there were commentators who mentioned that the Thunder had a deeper team and/or possibly more talent. The problem for the Thunder would simply be putting it together against a cohesive monster like the Warriors.

Must have been ultra-convenient to refrain from passing any blame to your boy Durant from that series, who had shot 42% from the field and 28% from three on 24 FG attempts per game, and number that was up from 19.2 per game during the regular season. Did he NOT play a role in shooting his team out of the series???

You say you didn't want this to be a Westbrook-bashing session...A little too late for that wouldn't you say?

It's no secret from my rankings that I consider the player that's more valuable to his team to be the better player. And you can by no way argue that no one player was more valuable to his team this season than Westbrook was to the Thunder.

 

[tlance]

I'll replay whenever the fuck I feel like it. It's a message board and I'm not obligated to respond to you by a certain date and time. So Russ holds the ball...No shit sherlock. He's the PG and that's what point guards generally do...handle the ball, especially now in the modern NBA. You say he forces shots, but I'ld want him to take those shots over some of the guys they had on that roster.

33-9 when he records a triple-double. Take Russ off the Thunder and they'd compete for a top 5 pick playing in the western conference. Take Leonard off the Spurs and Pop will still find a way to make them a contender. See the Game 6 demolition in Houston.

Wrong. Contender? LMAO.

See the 20 point game 1 lead on the road against GS that evaporated and became a series sweep. The Spurs are a contender with Kawhi. Very mediocre without him.

The ONLY player in the NBA that has close to as much impact on his team is LeBron. KD would be up there too, but his team is still awesome without him.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

I'll replay whenever the fuck I feel like it. It's a message board and I'm not obligated to respond to you by a certain date and time.

 

[trojanfan12]

I'm not arguing that Westbrook is better than Kawhi. I do think it is reasonable to argue that Westbrook is the better offensive player. You clearly disagree. That's fine. Lots of people willing to agree with you when it comes to disparaging Westbrook.

Thinking that Kawhi is the better player has nothing to do with "disparaging Westbrook." I love watching Westbrook. I think he's one of the most exciting and fun players to watch in the league and was firmly on the "Westbrook for MVP" bandwagon.

As much as I love Westbrook, if I had a choice, I'd much rather have Kawhi on the Lakers over Westbrook.

As tlance points out, efficiency matters and Kawhi is more efficient than Westbrook.

 

[tlance]

I'll replay whenever the fuck I feel like it. It's a message board and I'm not obligated to respond to you by a certain date and time. So Russ holds the ball...No shit sherlock. He's the PG and that's what point guards generally do...handle the ball, especially now in the modern NBA. You say he forces shots, but I'ld want him to take those shots over some of the guys they had on that roster.

33-9 when he records a triple-double. Take Russ off the Thunder and they'd compete for a top 5 pick playing in the western conference. Take Leonard off the Spurs and Pop will still find a way to make them a contender. See the Game 6 demolition in Houston.

It is ironic that you claim the '17 Thunder without Westbrook would be a bottom 5 team. Because you know who their roster looks remarkably similar too?

The current Pacers.

The difference is that Indy has a bit more offense where OKC had defenders and Indy plays in the East.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Note: My annual top 50 list will likely be out in early September.

And yes, my placing of Russell Westbrook is bound to stir up some controversy on this board, but I'm a Jerry Stackhouse fan, so that should say enough in itself.

1. LeBron James
2. Russell Westbrook
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Stephen Curry
6. James Harden
7. Giannis Antetokounmpo
8. John Wall
9. Isaiah Thomas
10. Chris Paul
11. Damian Lillard
12. Klay Thompson
13. Jimmy Butler
14. Paul George
15. Kyrie Irving
16. Anthony Davis
17. Karl-Anthony Towns
18. Draymond Green
19. Rudy Gobert
20. DeMar DeRozan
21. DeMarcus Cousins
22. Gordon Hayward
23. Nikola Jokic
24. Blake Griffin
25. Kemba Walker

id much rather have Draymond than Thompson.

Thompson trying to be a franchise leader would be a hilarious. He prob. benefits the most from playing on that team.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Note: My annual top 50 list will likely be out in early September.

And yes, my placing of Russell Westbrook is bound to stir up some controversy on this board, but I'm a Jerry Stackhouse fan, so that should say enough in itself.

1. LeBron James
2. Russell Westbrook
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Stephen Curry
6. James Harden
7. Giannis Antetokounmpo
8. John Wall
9. Isaiah Thomas
10. Chris Paul
11. Damian Lillard
12. Klay Thompson
13. Jimmy Butler
14. Paul George
15. Kyrie Irving
16. Anthony Davis
17. Karl-Anthony Towns
18. Draymond Green
19. Rudy Gobert
20. DeMar DeRozan
21. DeMarcus Cousins
22. Gordon Hayward
23. Nikola Jokic
24. Blake Griffin
25. Kemba Walker

I can buy Russ being 2nd- for the simple reason that - no one besides him or LeBron could have done what he did last year. Not Durant. Not Leonard. Not Curry.

 

[Clayton]

I get Lebron is Lebron but is it crazy to say that moving forward the paradigm is going to be that Durant is #1? You have a higher chance of Lebron regressing next year than Durant regressing.

I'd still have Lebron #2 but I think Durant is the king of the NBA right now

 

[Heatles84]

I can buy Russ being 2nd- for the simple reason that - no one besides him or LeBron could have done what he did last year. Not Durant. Not Leonard. Not Curry.

I'm pretty sure KD and Kawhi could've taken OKC to the playoffs.

 

[msgkings322]

id much rather have Draymond than Thompson.

Thompson trying to be a franchise leader would be a hilarious. He prob. benefits the most from playing on that team.

Yeah Klay is my favorite but he's not a #1 alpha dog type of player. He's a perfect #2. I suspect he knows it, so when he leaves in a couple of years he will likely go somewhere to team up with another top player.

 

[tlance]

id much rather have Draymond than Thompson.

Thompson trying to be a franchise leader would be a hilarious. He prob. benefits the most from playing on that team.

Totally agree. Draymond is much better than Tristan Thompson.

 

[CitySushi]

Must have been ultra-convenient to refrain from passing any blame to your boy Durant from that series, who had shot 42% from the field and 28% from three on 24 FG attempts per game, and number that was up from 19.2 per game during the regular season. Did he NOT play a role in shooting his team out of the series???

You say you didn't want this to be a Westbrook-bashing session...A little too late for that wouldn't you say?

It's no secret from my rankings that I consider the player that's more valuable to his team to be the better player. And you can by no way argue that no one player was more valuable to his team this season than Westbrook was to the Thunder.

Kevin Durant was a major part of the problem shooting wise. I didn't deny it. What I said was when your PG is an iso-heavy player, it does affect the flow of the team. I said blame was EASIER to shift. If it came across as though I was blaming Westbrook for them losing the series I was not. I was just pointing out the argument CAN be made that Westbrook was more to blame as he is the PG for the team and responsible for putting his teammates in a position to succeed. And it's even more so the case when you have a top 2 player in the NBA that season who you're not getting better shots for. Of course blame can be shifted in any number of areas, including KD, Coaching, role players, etc, but it's EASIER to blame to the Iso-Heavy PG.

Also ultra-convenient you didn't refute any of my other stuff I posted with respects to your cherry picking of the comparison. Probably because everything I said was spot on.

 

[trojanfan12]

Must have been ultra-convenient to refrain from passing any blame to your boy Durant from that series, who had shot 42% from the field and 28% from three on 24 FG attempts per game, and number that was up from 19.2 per game during the regular season. Did he NOT play a role in shooting his team out of the series???

What you're not grasping is that it's about when Westbrook chose to go iso heavy. Late in games, when the game was still up for grabs, Westbrook would ignore that he had arguably the 2nd best player in the world on his team and try to win it by himself.

If you watched that series, in every game OKC lost, they followed the same script late in the game. Westbrook kept making out of control drives to the basket, jacking up wild 3's or just plain turning the ball over.

It's not even just that he ignored KD. That would have been fine if he were giving the ball up to guys who had better looks. It's that he was ignoring everybody.

It's like @tlance says...Westbrook is arguably the most gifted athlete in the NBA and does amazing things. But it's his poor decision making that gets him into trouble.

If Westbrooks basketball iq were anywhere close to his talent level, we'd be including him in GOAT conversations, imo.

 

[tlance]

What you're not grasping is that it's about when Westbrook chose to go iso heavy. Late in games, when the game was still up for grabs, Westbrook would ignore that he had arguably the 2nd best player in the world on his team and try to win it by himself.

If you watched that series, in every game OKC lost, they followed the same script late in the game. Westbrook kept making out of control drives to the basket, jacking up wild 3's or just plain turning the ball over.

It's not even just that he ignored KD. That would have been fine if he were giving the ball up to guys who had better looks. It's that he was ignoring everybody.

It's like @tlance says...Westbrook is arguably the most gifted athlete in the NBA and does amazing things. But it's his poor decision making that gets him into trouble.

If Westbrooks basketball iq were anywhere close to his talent level, we'd be including him in GOAT conversations, imo.

I agree. Especially with the Ball IQ comment at the end.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

Also ultra-convenient you didn't refute any of my other stuff I posted with respects to your cherry picking of the comparison. Probably because everything I said was spot on.

Or maybe it's because most of your post was rambling mumbo-jumbo...I'm just curious of what you @tlance actually expect out of Westbrook.

If you're expecting him to be Jason Kidd where his first three options are pass, pass, and pass - It's probably not realistic. It's the EXACT argument I had made during our mock draft involvement in early 2016, and it's that you need to have somewhat a scorer at the PG position to keep defenses honest.

The closest thing we have to a modern-day Jason Kidd is Ricky Rubio, and he's never even been to the playoffs.

And for a sidenote, I even saw the roster flaws of the 2016 Thunder at the time and had practically called their demise even at the time of their 3-1 lead in those WCF's - I'd like to see OKC take down GS, but...

So let's not pretend it's some abnormality on the part of Westbrook the individual that no one saw coming...

 

[HurricaneDij39]

@CitySushi @tlance Either of you remember the time during Durant's Thunder days when LeBron was jealous of KD's frequent shot attempts???
http://www.espn.com/nba/truehoop/mi...miami-heat-jealous-kevin-durant-shot-attempts
Good being king? LeBron 'jealous' of Durant
http://www.espn.com/nba/truehoop/mi...miami-heat-jealous-kevin-durant-shot-attempts
That must be quite the damper on your Westbrook ballhog theory, wouldn't you say? If a player that some consider to be the GOAT in envious of the amount of shot attempts for one of Russ' teammates...