My Top 25 Current NBA Players

[tlance]

Sure. So are those5 games the sum total of Westbrook's career?

Westbrook also had 11 assists a game in that series.

I'm not going to defend Westbrook or the Thunder in that series. I just don't think it is reasonable to use a single series to define a career. It was ridiculous when various Cavs fans were claiming that Kyrie was the best PG after the 2016 finals. It's just as ridiculous to criticize Westbrook for his performance.

Not what I am trying to do at all.

Many seem to be defining Westbrook by his stats last season. The playoffs were like a charicature of his entire season. I have been saying all year that the assists don't mean as much for a player who has the ball as much as he does. That playoff usage rate perfectly illustrates that.

 

[tlance]

I know I said I would refrain from explanations here, but I could turn around and say what does Kawhi do better than Russ outside of individual defense?

If the major argument against Russ is that he's not a team player and doesn't make others better, then I pose the question - What Spurs player has become better as a result of playing with Kawhi? Is his game not iso-heavy in itself? Is he not somewhat a product of arguably the greatest basketball coach ever?

Playing team basketball and trusting ball movement makes teammates better. That is what Kawhi does. He draws defensive attention and gives teammates room to operate in spaces where they are comfortable. Kawhi can create for others, but his role is to be a finisher.

Not all assist guys actually make the game easier for teammates. The more a player holds the ball, the harder things become, regardless of how many assists a guy racks up. The ball moves a lot faster than any player. Guys who play off the ball and garner attention (like Kawhi and Klay) do a lot more to help teammates than a guy who possesses the ball for half the shot clock. Nobody wants a grenade coming their way with a low shot clock.

 

[tlance]

There are a few intricacies, IMO, that put a damper on Kawhi's numbers.

1) The Spurs offense isn't heavily relied upon any one person. It's a free flow offense, where the right play is often made and the right person takes the shot. Pop even said Kawhi would be great once he learns that just because a play is called for him, doesn't mean he has to score. This is where Kawhi is better than Russ.

2) Kawhi is often guarding the best perimeter player for the opposing team. As such, it draws him further away from the hoop, limiting his opportunities for rebounds. It's much like Klay Thompson, who's career rebounding numbers have been sub-par for a guy 6'7". That's because he's been tasked with guarding the best perimeter player and drawn away from the hoop. A guy like Russ who's not defending at an elite level and gambling much more can hunt for rebounds, like we saw him do this year.

3) Kawhi's outside shooting is miles and miles above Russ.

Those are really the only comparables. Russ being a PG and Kawhi being a SF limit the comparisons that can be made. But those reasons above are why IMO Kawhi is a significantly better player.

Exactly.

Two great comments.

 

[flyerhawk]

Not what I am trying to do at all.

Many seem to be defining Westbrook by his stats last season. The playoffs were like a charicature of his entire season. I have been saying all year that the assists don't mean as much for a player who has the ball as much as he does. That playoff usage rate perfectly illustrates that.

I'm not sure I've seen anyone making that claim here. What I have see here are people disparaging Westbrook as a player and others saying that people are going way too far with it.

Westbrook's usage rate during the season was 41.7% last year. The year that KD was hurt it was 38%. Otherwise he has been in the 31-32 range for most of his career which is fairly typical for a top PG.

Do you think that Westbrook's usage rate is going to be 40+% again this year?

 

[flyerhawk]

There are a few intricacies, IMO, that put a damper on Kawhi's numbers.

1) The Spurs offense isn't heavily relied upon any one person. It's a free flow offense, where the right play is often made and the right person takes the shot. Pop even said Kawhi would be great once he learns that just because a play is called for him, doesn't mean he has to score. This is where Kawhi is better than Russ.

2) Kawhi is often guarding the best perimeter player for the opposing team. As such, it draws him further away from the hoop, limiting his opportunities for rebounds. It's much like Klay Thompson, who's career rebounding numbers have been sub-par for a guy 6'7". That's because he's been tasked with guarding the best perimeter player and drawn away from the hoop. A guy like Russ who's not defending at an elite level and gambling much more can hunt for rebounds, like we saw him do this year.

3) Kawhi's outside shooting is miles and miles above Russ.

Those are really the only comparables. Russ being a PG and Kawhi being a SF limit the comparisons that can be made. But those reasons above are why IMO Kawhi is a significantly better player.

All reasonable points. I agree that Kawhi is a better player.

 

[tlance]

I'm not sure I've seen anyone making that claim here. What I have see here are people disparaging Westbrook as a player and others saying that people are going way too far with it.

Westbrook's usage rate during the season was 41.7% last year. The year that KD was hurt it was 38%. Otherwise he has been in the 31-32 range for most of his career which is fairly typical for a top PG.

Do you think that Westbrook's usage rate is going to be 40+% again this year?

No I don't. I don't think he will average a triple double either.

His usage rate has always been too high though. 31% is far too high for a second option. If he were the best scorer on the team, then fine. For example, Lillard's usage rate is 31.5%. He is the number 1 option on the team. Curry's usage rate with KD was 30.5%, but he also had a true shooting percentage of 62.4% and is a much more efficient scorer than Russ. Westbrook has always had a relatively inefficient TS% (career best 54.4% this year) yet since his second year in the league, his usage rate has never been lower than 31.6. Westbrook had a higher usage rate than KD just about every year they played together. That really isn't okay.

Yes, Curry's usage was higher than KD's this year, but again I point to the fact that Curry is a ridiculously efficient scorer too. Russ is not.

I never intended this to turn into a Westbrook bash session. The whole point is that there is a sizable gap between the three best players and the next group. I don't think you disagree with that. When people try to argue that it is close, I have to bring up this stuff to show why it isn't.

 

[shopson67]

#1 is clearly Lonzo Ball.

 

[LogicMan]

He played with Durant and Ibaka when Ibaka was good. It is more than percentages and defense, it is decision making, which leads to bad percentages. It is an awful talk order passing the 3 who are ahead of him too.

Players easily can develop their game yoy. Westbrooks year last year was to prove OKC could survive KD's departure, which I am sure he took personally. With the recognition complete on the personal level, I see him maturing his game and working for a place where he can be a big piece, but not the only. I like his upside

 

[tlance]

Players easily can develop their game yoy. Westbrooks year last year was to prove OKC could survive KD's departure, which I am sure he took personally. With the recognition complete on the personal level, I see him maturing his game and working for a place where he can be a big piece, but not the only. I like his upside

Maybe.

But until he does, he won't be as good as those guys ahead of him.

 

[StanMarsh51]

True... but I don't see how 17-11 gets you MVP. NASH was very good but literally was the reason they lost in the playoffs. He couldn't defend. Also... when I think MVP I think of someone who can take over in crunch time and carry a team. He didn't have that ability.

It's a regular season award, so what happens in the playoffs has no bearing on it. That's why the voting for MVP in sports is typically done before the playoffs begin, otherwise it would skew heavily to guys on championship teams.

 

[PhoenixEagles1]

It's a regular season award, so what happens in the playoffs has no bearing on it. That's why the voting for MVP in sports is typically done before the playoffs begin, otherwise it would skew heavily to guys on championship teams.

Ues, I understand that but it was more questioning Nash. How is the MVP a 17 and 11 guy while also being the leagues worst defender. He was a great PG and a great shooter but wasn't close to a top 3 or 4 guy.

 

[thunderc]

I don't need stats to defend Westbrook, I'll let my eyes be the judge. He does things no one else in the league is capable of doing and that is every game. He truly might be the best athlete to ever play the game, definitely in the top very few at a minimum. He can do more though, there is no reason why he shouldn't be a top defensive player as well. I expect people are going to see an improved version of him this season in regards to the criticism some have of him.

 

[tlance]

I don't need stats to defend Westbrook, I'll let my eyes be the judge. He does things no one else in the league is capable of doing and that is every game. He truly might be the best athlete to ever play the game, definitely in the top very few at a minimum. He can do more though, there is no reason why he shouldn't be a top defensive player as well. I expect people are going to see an improved version of him this season in regards to the criticism some have of him.

I can't argue with any of this. Spot on.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

2) Kawhi is often guarding the best perimeter player for the opposing team. As such, it draws him further away from the hoop, limiting his opportunities for rebounds. It's much like Klay Thompson, who's career rebounding numbers have been sub-par for a guy 6'7". That's because he's been tasked with guarding the best perimeter player and drawn away from the hoop. A guy like Russ who's not defending at an elite level and gambling much more can hunt for rebounds, like we saw him do this year.

3) Kawhi's outside shooting is miles and miles above Russ.

Those are really the only comparables. Russ being a PG and Kawhi being a SF limit the comparisons that can be made. But those reasons above are why IMO Kawhi is a significantly better player.

And C.J. Miles is a better outside shooter than LeBron James if you want to nitpick. And he happened to be employed by the Cavs the year before LeBron returned...

I don't give a shit about rebounding comparisons, but you and @tlance still have not answered my question...If Russell Westbrook is such a bad team player, then what player on the Spurs has become better as a result of playing with Kawhi? Or he is more a Pop product than either of you would like to acknowledge?

Westbrook was quoted in this video below that he doesn't have a supporting cast, but rather that he's a part of one team. Not a team guy...Sure.

 

[tlance]

And C.J. Miles is a better outside shooter than LeBron James if you want to nitpick. And he happened to be employed by the Cavs the year before LeBron returned...

I don't give a shit about rebounding comparisons, but you and @tlance still have not answered my question...If Russell Westbrook is such a bad team player, then what player on the Spurs has become better as a result of playing with Kawhi? Or he is more a Pop product than either of you would like to acknowledge?

Westbrook was quoted in this video below that he doesn't have a supporting cast, but rather that he's a part of one team. Not a team guy...Sure.

No. We did answer your question.

Everyone's job is easier playing with Kawhi. He makes everyone better.

Who does Russ make better? All of his prominent teammates have career years immediately after leaving. Oladipo will be next on that list.

 

[TJL]

1. Lonzo
2. LeBron
3. Paul George
4. Kawhi
5. Durant
6. Westbrook
7. Harden
8. B. Lopez
9. B. Ingram
10. J. Randle
11. ZUBAC
12. Kobe (coming out of retirement)
13. Curry
14. Wall
15. Cousins
16-25 who cares, scrubs.

 

[tlance]

1. Lonzo
2. LeBron
3. Paul George
4. Kawhi
5. Durant
6. Westbrook
7. Harden
8. B. Lopez
9. B. Ingram
10. J. Randle
11. ZUBAC
12. Kobe (coming out of retirement)
13. Curry
14. Wall
15. Cousins
16-25 who cares, scrubs.

You forgot LaMelo ad LiAngelo.

 

[TJL]

You forgot LaMelo ad LiAngelo.

LiAngelo running the college game and LaMelo going to win Gatorade player of the year.

But if you want me to be honest, replace Angelo or Melo with Curry on the Warriors and they're NBA champs next year.

 

[CitySushi]

And C.J. Miles is a better outside shooter than LeBron James if you want to nitpick. And he happened to be employed by the Cavs the year before LeBron returned...

I don't give a shit about rebounding comparisons, but you and @tlance still have not answered my question...If Russell Westbrook is such a bad team player, then what player on the Spurs has become better as a result of playing with Kawhi? Or he is more a Pop product than either of you would like to acknowledge?

Westbrook was quoted in this video below that he doesn't have a supporting cast, but rather that he's a part of one team. Not a team guy...Sure.

How is pointing out 3 point percentage a nitpick? You're cherry picking way more than I have in my assessment of Kawhi. We're comparing two of the elite players in the NBA, but you throw in a comparison about a role player who shoots better? C'mon man, I hope you would be better than that.

I'm not trying to turn this into a Westbrook bash session. It's well known I believe Russ to be an elite player, but flawed and inefficient. Every advanced metric shows that Kawhi is a significantly better player. You can use effective field goal percentage, O/D ratings, Usage rate, Win shares/48, Value over replacement, etc, etc.

Pop's tutelage has definitely had an effect on Kawhi's growth and development, but there's nothing about his game that says he's a system player. He's an elite defender, solid rebounder, very good outside shooter and on top of that has become an elite overall scorer in the NBA.

Also with respect to Westbrook, the guy had 1 season(JUST 1) not playing with a top 5 player in the NBA on his team. When the Warriors had 73 wins, people were still saying that OKC had the better overall roster. His game was still the exact same as it was then as it was last year. The only difference is that he didn't have to defer to anyone or share the alpha role. His numbers inflated, but his success did not.

Again, I'm not trying to bash Westbrook, but it's clear to me who the superior player is. Westbrook is still probably a top 5 player in the NBA, top 6 at worst. But Lebron, KD, and Kawhi are all a cut above.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

No. We did answer your question.

Everyone's job is easier playing with Kawhi. He makes everyone better.

Who does Russ make better? All of his prominent teammates have career years immediately after leaving. Oladipo will be next on that list.

So who on the Spurs was better? Was it LaMarcus? He was a total non-factor in the conference finals as well as late in the regular season. Maybe Jonathan Simmons and Dwyane Dedmon? Let's see how they do with their new teams, but they scream "Pop product" to me. If anything they played their best in that Game 6 when Kawhi was out. Tony Parker - old and injury-prone. Ginobili washed up.

Point being, if you're going to bash Westbrook for not helping his teammates, you better hold other superstar players to the same damn standard.