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HurricaneDij's Annual Top 50 NBA Players List (Year 15)

BigKen

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The first 5 listed aren't Celtics?
Did I say anything even close to that?

I have zero problem with 1 and 3. 2 doesn't even play 50%. 4 finally had a decent year and is out of the playoffs. I'm ambivalent on 5.

You're the one who mentioned Celtics in defense of Lebron, not me.
 

Shanemansj13

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And likewise, I'm not one to pretend those guys aren't in the league anymore.

Same goes for Kawhi and Jamal Murray.

Downgrade, sure. But really the only exception I made to this rule was last year when I left Klay on honorable mention after he had not played in two years.
Fair enough
 

trojanfan12

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Did I say anything even close to that?

I have zero problem with 1 and 3. 2 doesn't even play 50%. 4 finally had a decent year and is out of the playoffs. I'm ambivalent on 5.

You're the one who mentioned Celtics in defense of Lebron, not me.

That's funny, I didn't mention Lebron.
 

Shanemansj13

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Did I say anything even close to that?

I have zero problem with 1 and 3. 2 doesn't even play 50%. 4 finally had a decent year and is out of the playoffs. I'm ambivalent on 5.

You're the one who mentioned Celtics in defense of Lebron, not me.
Everything you said IS false, that's hard to do lol.

Lebron missed 26 games and he averaged 30, 8 and 6 on 53% FG and 36% from 3.

Embiid led the league in scoring, I would say that is decent and he is only out for 2 games.

KD missed 27 games and he has a towel boy as a head coach, a flat earth teammate and the other teammate has mental issues and has no ability to shoot past 8 feet. He also averaged 30, 7 and 7 on 52% FG and 38% from 3.

All 3 of those players are top 5 players as of right now, I don't even think it is debatable.
 

fightinfunbags

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Everything you said IS false, that's hard to do lol.

Lebron missed 26 games and he averaged 30, 8 and 6 on 53% FG and 36% from 3.

Embiid led the league in scoring, I would say that is decent and he is only out for 2 games.

KD missed 27 games and he has a towel boy as a head coach, a flat earth teammate and the other teammate has mental issues and has no ability to shoot past 8 feet. He also averaged 30, 7 and 7 on 52% FG and 38% from 3.

All 3 of those players are top 5 players as of right now, I don't even think it is debatable.
You already lost because you engaged in non-baseball sports talk with a Mass Hole. Those guys really do know their baseball. But that’s the only sport they can talk. They don’t know shit about basketball football or baseball.
 

CitySushi

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I'd be interested in seeing where you'd put him. Lot of talent, but 0-2 in play-in games, blown out both times, got his coach fired, had a nice -35 plus/minus against the Pacers of all teams in one of those games...

Let's hear it.

If you're going off individual talent and what is required of them for their team to win, I actually don't see an argument for Klay or Middleton being above Lamelo. I'd have him somewhere likely in the mid to late 20's. Early 30's tops.
 

CitySushi

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On the contrary, I think he gets more hype because he was a Laker. CJ, on the other hand, came over from Portland after being Dame's afterthought sidekick.

His leadership was the difference in them being 15 games under .500 before the deadline and having a winning record after it, and that's why he gets the ranking. @CitySushi

Ingram was out for 14 games prior to McCollum being acquired. In those games he was out the Pelicans were 2-12.

In the games Ingram played, prior to McCollum playing a game, the Pelicans were 20-20 for a .500 record.

Record with Ingram and McCollum: 9-6.
Record for McCollum, without Ingram: 5-8.

So who's really more important here?
 

HurricaneDij39

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Ingram was out for 14 games prior to McCollum being acquired. In those games he was out the Pelicans were 2-12.

In the games Ingram played, prior to McCollum playing a game, the Pelicans were 20-20 for a .500 record.

Record with Ingram and McCollum: 9-6.
Record for McCollum, without Ingram: 5-8.

So who's really more important here?
Playing the "injury absence" card actually lessens Ingram's case, not greatens it.

Culture matters, and the Pelicans had none before McCollum's arrival, especially without Zion. Of course your team's going to suck when Valanciunas and Devonte' Graham (who's going to be a buster contract very soon, though not quite as bad as Bertans) are literally your two best available players.

I guess you're just going to gloss right over the fact that Ingram shot 32 percent from three this season, well below his career norm. If you want to argue that Ingram has more raw talent than McCollum, then I won't disagree with you. That said, I value leadership and culture more.

And FYI, 5-8 is not that bad a record without Ingram and Zion...
 

HurricaneDij39

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If you're going off individual talent and what is required of them for their team to win, I actually don't see an argument for Klay or Middleton being above Lamelo. I'd have him somewhere likely in the mid to late 20's. Early 30's tops.
Gotta say this is a weird take from you. Especially given all those years you and your cronies dogged Westbrook for stuffing stats on mediocre teams. And this time at the expense of your own guy (Klay)…

Klay and Middleton have championships on their resume. One is going to be in the HOF and the other may one day be argued as such.

LaMelo has done enough to make the list after being HM last year, but with my lists, I make the newbies earn their stripes. Being blown out in back-to-back play-in games isn’t it. The NBA gifted Ball and the Hornets with extra opportunities to make the postseason and both times they were a no show.
 

CitySushi

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Playing the "injury absence" card actually lessens Ingram's case, not greatens it.

Culture matters, and the Pelicans had none before McCollum's arrival, especially without Zion. Of course your team's going to suck when Valanciunas and Devonte' Graham (who's going to be a buster contract very soon, though not quite as bad as Bertans) are literally your two best available players.

I guess you're just going to gloss right over the fact that Ingram shot 32 percent from three this season, well below his career norm. If you want to argue that Ingram has more raw talent than McCollum, then I won't disagree with you. That said, I value leadership and culture more.

And FYI, 5-8 is not that bad a record without Ingram and Zion...

Honestly it takes a certain type of mental gymnastics to use those figures and determine that McCollum was better than Ingram. I don't know how you interpreted the numbers but let me show you again their records...

-When Ingram played, the Pelicans were a .500 team (20-20) without McCollum

-When McCollum played, the pelicans were .384 team (5-8) without Ingram.

If 5-8 is not a bad record without Ingram and Zion....then a 20-20 record without McCollum and Zion is a friggin masterpiece.
 

CitySushi

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Gotta say this is a weird take from you. Especially given all those years you and your cronies dogged Westbrook for stuffing stats on mediocre teams. And this time at the expense of your own guy (Klay)…

Klay and Middleton have championships on their resume. One is going to be in the HOF and the other may one day be argued as such.

LaMelo has done enough to make the list after being HM last year, but with my lists, I make the newbies earn their stripes. Being blown out in back-to-back play-in games isn’t it. The NBA gifted Ball and the Hornets with extra opportunities to make the postseason and both times they were a no show.

It's always tough when you try to put individual valuations on a big board like this. Lamelo's numbers aren't simply empty stats. He's a critical piece to his teams success and the reason they're playing the way they are. He has also changed the culture in Charlotte. All of the players on that team speak incredibly highly of him and his play motivates them to be better. He's special.

You always say these lists are not based off of past performances. So we can't take HOF careers into account. That's how you ended up with Harden at 14.

Lamelo is only getting better. He just made the all-star game in just his second year in the NBA. He's clearly the best player on his team with an above .500 record knocking on the playoffs door. You don't think he'll likely be even better next year? Also, if you're using a merit system like post-season and record, why do you have Dejounte Murray at 30?
 

WiggyRuss

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This is being posted much earlier than usual in large part because I'm not anticipating a busy offseason in the NBA (unless Utah were to hypothetically shop Donovan Mitchell)...

While some may scoff at my Gary Trent inclusion, having idolized Jerry Stackhouse I truly believe pure scorers are underappreciated in today's NBA.


(Here’s to hoping LeBron will be back in Cleveland the next time I make one these during the summer of 2023.)

*Last year’s ranking in parenthesis.
  1. Giannis Antetokounmpo, F, Milwaukee Bucks (1)
  2. LeBron James, F/G, Los Angeles Lakers (4)
  3. Nikola Jokic, C, Denver Nuggets (2)
  4. Joel Embiid, C, Philadelphia 76ers (8)
  5. Kevin Durant, F, Brooklyn Nets (3)
  6. Ja Morant, PG, Memphis Grizzlies (33)
  7. Stephen Curry, PG, Golden State Warriors (7)
  8. Luka Doncic, SG, Dallas Mavericks (9)
  9. Kawhi Leonard, F, Los Angeles Clippers (5)
  10. Trae Young, PG, Atlanta Hawks (11)
  11. Jayson Tatum, PF, Boston Celtics (13)
  12. Devin Booker, SG, Phoenix Suns (21)
  13. DeMar DeRozan, SF, Chicago Bulls (NR)
  14. James Harden, SG, Philadelphia 76ers (6)
  15. Jimmy Butler, F/G, Miami Heat (18)
  16. Damian Lillard, PG, Portland Trail Blazers (10)
  17. Karl-Anthony Towns, C, Minnesota Timberwolves (22)
  18. Paul George, F/G, Los Angeles Clippers (18)
  19. Anthony Davis, C/F, Los Angeles Lakers (12)
  20. Kyrie Irving, PG, Brooklyn Nets (20)
  21. Donovan Mitchell, SG, Utah Jazz (16)
  22. Chris Paul, PG, Phoenix Suns (17)
  23. Bradley Beal, SG, Washington Wizards (19)
  24. C.J. McCollum, SG, New Orleans Pelicans (37)
  25. Jaylen Brown, SG, Boston Celtics (24)
  26. Klay Thompson, F/G, Golden State Warriors (NR)
  27. Khris Middleton, SF, Milwaukee Bucks (25)
  28. Brandon Ingram, SF, New Orleans Pelicans (30)
  29. Bam Adebayo, C, Miami Heat (34)
  30. Dejounte Murray, PG, San Antonio Spurs (NR)
  31. DeAndre Ayton, C, Phoenix Suns (42)
  32. Zach LaVine, SG, Chicago Bulls (28)
  33. Darius Garland, PG, Cleveland Cavaliers (NR)
  34. Anthony Edwards, SG, Minnesota Timberwolves (NR)
  35. Rudy Gobert, C, Utah Jazz (23)
  36. Jrue Holiday, PG, Milwaukee Bucks (35)
  37. Pascal Siakam, PF, Toronto Raptors (31)
  38. Jamal Murray, PG, Denver Nuggets (32)
  39. Fred VanVleet, PG, Toronto Raptors (49)
  40. Tyler Herro, SG, Miami Heat (NR)
pretty decent overall. Having put together lists myself I understand how difficult it is.

I appreciate the effort ranking Kawhi, Simmons, Zion, etc.....not easy to do. Ithink you put Leonard in a good spot. I like your top 9 and the order pretty well. Not exactly what Iwould have but defendable.

10--I think Trae is too high. Id push Trae down after Tatum and Booker.

DeRozan is a hard guy to rank but I suppose he deserves his due. I would push him down though to about behind Kyrie. With how CP3 is, I would have to push him up a little bit.

I would push Gobert up a little bit. I would drop Ayton a little.

Top 20 I would go- if injuries were not a consideration:

1. Giannis
2. Durant
3. Jokic
4. Embiid
5. Morant
6. Doncic
7. Tatum
8. Booker
9. Lebron
10. Curry
11. Kawhi
12. Lillard
13. Towns
14. Kyrie
15. Davis
16. DeRozan
17. Paul
18. Young
19. Brown
20. Butler
 
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WiggyRuss

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I am very very tempted to drop LeBron under Tatum and Booker at this point.- gotta do it- results matter. Especially next year those 2 will only get better- LeBron will only continue to regress- if only slightly
 

WiggyRuss

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Booker has really turned into elite both ways. Shot maker- defender. Suns are a legit title - maybe favorite- and as good as CP3 is- Booker is the best player on that team. He will only get better. Only now entering his prime. I dont even think he is at the height of his abilities yet. Next year, in October, Booker will be 26.

Much the same with Tatum. Amazing both ways. Can take over.

at this point Ihave to take Tatum and Booker over LeBron who is going to be 38 in December and Curry who will be 35 next March. On a game-in-game out basis- or for a long playoff run- I think I have to take Booker and Tatum over curry and LeBron.

Curry, LeBron, Kawhi go 9, 10, 11--- still great talents. Can be as good as anyone on any given night, but I just dont trust those guys over a 20+ game post season or 80 game regular season.

Morant at 5 is kind of crazy- but he can carry a team at this point. Its crazy but I think he deserves it. Doncic the same way- he is not working with a whole lot in Dallas and has them in the 2nd round.

I dont like putting DeRozan so high but the guy was in the MVP race for a while and just carried the Bulls - all those 30 point games in a row- the efficiency. He earned it more than just blows me away with his talent- but performance and consistency matter.

Towns really took a step up this year. His 3 pt shooting was huge.
 

WiggyRuss

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that McCollum, Ingram battle is interesting.

ingram is more talented- but there is something to be said for McCollum who is absolutely a great leader, and brings a team together. Ingram is still young and has never had a guy like that to learn from and lead. If I had to pick 1- id take Ingram because of his talent, but McCollum is a valuable guy

id rather the Cavs have dealt for McCollum then have LeVert and Sexton I think. His leadership and shotmaking would be huge.
 

WiggyRuss

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It's always tough when you try to put individual valuations on a big board like this. Lamelo's numbers aren't simply empty stats. He's a critical piece to his teams success and the reason they're playing the way they are. He has also changed the culture in Charlotte. All of the players on that team speak incredibly highly of him and his play motivates them to be better. He's special.

You always say these lists are not based off of past performances. So we can't take HOF careers into account. That's how you ended up with Harden at 14.

Lamelo is only getting better. He just made the all-star game in just his second year in the NBA. He's clearly the best player on his team with an above .500 record knocking on the playoffs door. You don't think he'll likely be even better next year? Also, if you're using a merit system like post-season and record, why do you have Dejounte Murray at 30?
ya know what- i like this post a lot

I think that this is true.

it makes me want to push guys like Ball, Garland, VanFleet, SGA up my list.....it makes me want to push down guys like Klay, Middleton down my list.

I am kind of souring on Beal.

honestly- at this point- I kinda want to rank Ball, Garland, SGA, and VanFleet over Beal.

Id really drop Ayton.

considering what Davis has been through- do the Raptors, Hornets, Cavs trade VanFleet, Ball or Garland for him? I kind of dont think so. I think at the very least its a debate.

basically- if I am getting your argument right- you have to give guys credit for being a lead guy- and you have to give guys credit who should only improve- especially when ranking them against guys that are 2nd or 3rd guys- that are more likely to decline.
 

WiggyRuss

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1. Giannis
2. Durant
3. Jokic
4. Embiid
5. Morant
6. Doncic
7. Tatum
8. Booker
9. Lebron
10. Curry
11. Kawhi
12. Lillard
13. Towns
14. Kyrie
15. Davis
16. DeRozan
17. Paul
18. Young
19. Brown
20. Butler
21. George
22. Mitchell
23. Garland
24. Ball
25. Van Fleet
26. Ingram
27. Edwards
28. SGA
29. Beale
30. Siakam
31. Bam
32. JJJ
33. Gobert
34. Murray
35. Edwards
36. Simmons
37. Holliday
38. McCollum
39. Klay
40. Haliburton
41. Zion
42. Smart
43. Middleton
44. Murray
45. Green
46. Cunningham
47. Mobley
48. Barnes
49. Sabonis
50. Allen

forgot Harden

Hon. Mention: Fox, Brunson, Randle, Maxey, Ayton, Herro, Bridges, Bridges, Porter Jr., Porzingis, Trent Jr., Harris, Wiggins, RW, Bane
 

Shanemansj13

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I am very very tempted to drop LeBron under Tatum and Booker at this point.- gotta do it- results matter. Especially next year those 2 will only get better- LeBron will only continue to regress- if only slightly
I get why you would say that but if Lebron was playing in the postseason you probably wouldn't be thinking that at the moment. He isn't the defender that those two are for 48 mins but he can be for long stretches. Offensively it's closer than people think though. When Booker is on his game, he is a top 5 offensive player in the NBA imo
 

Shanemansj13

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that McCollum, Ingram battle is interesting.

ingram is more talented- but there is something to be said for McCollum who is absolutely a great leader, and brings a team together. Ingram is still young and has never had a guy like that to learn from and lead. If I had to pick 1- id take Ingram because of his talent, but McCollum is a valuable guy

id rather the Cavs have dealt for McCollum then have LeVert and Sexton I think. His leadership and shotmaking would be huge.
@WiggyRuss Do you think the Cavs go all-in on a big name (if one comes available) with the pieces they have to offer?
 

Shanemansj13

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Honestly it takes a certain type of mental gymnastics to use those figures and determine that McCollum was better than Ingram. I don't know how you interpreted the numbers but let me show you again their records...

-When Ingram played, the Pelicans were a .500 team (20-20) without McCollum

-When McCollum played, the pelicans were .384 team (5-8) without Ingram.

If 5-8 is not a bad record without Ingram and Zion....then a 20-20 record without McCollum and Zion is a friggin masterpiece.
It's really not close man. Ingram is the superior player, I'm not shitting on CJ bc he is a really good player but he isn't a #1 on a playoff team. For stretches, I've seen it.
 
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