My Top 25 Current NBA Players

[thunderc]

You can say good things about Westbrook. Just don't try to overhype him. He is a legit superstar. Still not a great team player and not as good as LeBron, KD or Kawhi.

Thanks for your permission, I'm sure the whole board appreciates it.

 

[trojanfan12]

I agree.

But, the MVP award doesn't go to the best player. It goes to the guy who had the most outstanding season. That is why Russ won this year. I don't necessarily agree with how the award is given, but it has been pretty consistent over the last 20 years or so.

^^^This^^^

It's why, imo, there should be 2 awards...Most Valuable Player and Most Outstanding (Best) Player.

The most valuable player this past season, imo, was Westbrook. Without him, the Thunder are fighting the Lakers and Sixers for lottery picks instead for a playoff spot.

However, the Most Outstanding (Best) Player would be Lebron, KD or Kawhi.

 

[msgkings322]

Thanks for your permission, I'm sure the whole board appreciates it.

 

[wildturkey]

Best episode of Full House ever. Couldn't believe they got that past the censors

 

[LogicMan]

Boards a little salty on this subject. If Westbrook shot closer to .380 from 3pt area AND played more D per possesion I think we could see him break the top 3. And BTW there is no reason he could not get there with the right team and system

 

[tlance]

Boards a little salty on this subject. If Westbrook shot closer to .380 from 3pt area AND played more D per possesion I think we could see him break the top 3. And BTW there is no reason he could not get there with the right team and system

He played with Durant and Ibaka when Ibaka was good. It is more than percentages and defense, it is decision making, which leads to bad percentages. It is an awful talk order passing the 3 who are ahead of him too.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

That is just it though.

I have not seen one single person with an opinion I respect say that Russ is better than either KD or Kawhi. Not 1.

In fact, most basketball people rate Curry higher than Russ because of his ability to play with others. That one is more debatable though.

I actually think that asking someone to list the best 3 players in the league today is a pretty good way to assess their knowledge. It is more clear today than ever before because there is a wide gap between those top 3 and the next best, but there are also players like Russ who post gaudy stats on the outside looking in.

It is so close to unanimous in the basketball world that it really is that proof you say doesn't exist.

Well then, maybe your opinion isn't actually God's gift to the whole world like you think it is.

I'll leave my explanations for when my full list is done.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

Don't dare say anything good about Russell Westbrook around here, opinions don't matter.

DING DING DING

Apparently a player has to chase titles to have full "praising" privileges on here.

 

[tlance]

DING DING DING

Apparently a player has to chase titles to have full "praising" privileges on here.

No. KD is just a better player.

But, now your list makes more sense. You must have given Russ extra points for "loyalty".

 

[tlance]

Well then, maybe your opinion isn't actually God's gift to the whole world like you think it is.

I'll leave my explanations for when my full list is done.

Ok.

How about this. Take KD out of the equation for a minute because I know you won't be able to be objective there.

What exactly does Westbrook do better than Kawhi aside from pile up stats?

He is a better playmaker, but really that is it. The rebounding difference gets exaggerated because Russ plays more minutes and he hunts defensive boards. Russ isn't necessarily better there, but again, some overrate him because of the stat sheet.

 

[flyerhawk]

He is a better playmaker, but really that is it. The rebounding difference gets exaggerated because Russ plays more minutes and he hunts defensive boards. Russ isn't necessarily better there, but again, some overrate him because of the stat sheet.

I agree that Westbrook is probably on the outside of the top 3 but your argument here isn't compelling. Kawhi and RW average nearly the same offensive rebounds per 36 whereas RW nearly doubles Kawhi's defensive rebounds per 36.

Kawhi is a better defensive player by quite a margin, IMO, but I think that RW is probably a better offensive player, but not by the same margin as Kawhi is on D.

 

[tlance]

I agree that Westbrook is probably on the outside of the top 3 but your argument here isn't compelling. Kawhi and RW average nearly the same offensive rebounds per 36 whereas RW nearly doubles Kawhi's defensive rebounds per 36.

Kawhi is a better defensive player by quite a margin, IMO, but I think that RW is probably a better offensive player, but not by the same margin as Kawhi is on D.

Kawhi averages fewer rebounds because of his role. He is almost always guarding the other team's best perimeter player, which often leaves him at the 3 point line when the shot goes up. While Russ leaves his responsibility to chase boards, Leonard stays connected to an often very dangerous shooter and allows teammates to rebound. Russ' role allows him to rebound.

Here are some stats:

First off, for his career, Kawhi averages 7.3 rebounds per 36 minutes. Russ averages 6.6.

Regular season stats are first, playoffs second

True Shooting
Kawhi: 61.0% 67.8%
Russ: 55.4%. 51.8%

PER- will come back to this in a minute
Kawhi: 27.0 31.5
Russ: 30.6 27.7

Assist/TO
Kawhi: 1.67 2.09
Russ: 1.93 1.8

Win Shares
Kawhi: 13.6 2.8
Russ: 13.1 .4

Usage
Kawhi: 31.6 28.5
Russ: 41.7 47


So, how is Russ a "better" offensive player? He has the ball a lot more, that is for sure. What is most telling to me is that in the playoffs, after Parker went down, Kawhi was asked to handle the ball more. His usage rate went down, while Russ' went astronomical.

Efficiency matters and Kawhi is a lot more efficient. Kawhi also got better during the playoffs, while Russ got worse. But, he got his triple doubles!

Kawhi is easy to play with. He makes good decisions. Russ is not.

 

[flyerhawk]

Kawhi averages fewer rebounds because of his role. He is almost always guarding the other team's best perimeter player, which often leaves him at the 3 point line when the shot goes up. While Russ leaves his responsibility to chase boards, Leonard stays connected to an often very dangerous shooter and allows teammates to rebound. Russ' role allows him to rebound.

Here are some stats:

First off, for his career, Kawhi averages 7.3 rebounds per 36 minutes. Russ averages 6.6.

Regular season stats are first, playoffs second

True Shooting
Kawhi: 61.0% 67.8%
Russ: 55.4%. 51.8%

PER- will come back to this in a minute
Kawhi: 27.0 31.5
Russ: 30.6 27.7

Assist/TO
Kawhi: 1.67 2.09
Russ: 1.93 1.8

Win Shares
Kawhi: 13.6 2.8
Russ: 13.1 .4

Usage
Kawhi: 31.6 28.5
Russ: 41.7 47


So, how is Russ a "better" offensive player? He has the ball a lot more, that is for sure. What is most telling to me is that in the playoffs, after Parker went down, Kawhi was asked to handle the ball more. His usage rate went down, while Russ' went astronomical.

Efficiency matters and Kawhi is a lot more efficient. Kawhi also got better during the playoffs, while Russ got worse. But, he got his triple doubles!

Kawhi is easy to play with. He makes good decisions. Russ is not.

You do some really weird mixing and matching of career stats with last year's stats here.

No question that Kawhi had a phenomenal playoffs last year. Is that going to be how we compare the two? Do previous year not count? Westbrook single handedly carried a pretty mediocre Thunder to the playoffs. And they did exactly what happens whenever a player single handedly carries a team to the playoffs. They got bounced quickly because the other team shuts down the star.

I'm not arguing that Westbrook is better than Kawhi. I do think it is reasonable to argue that Westbrook is the better offensive player. You clearly disagree. That's fine. Lots of people willing to agree with you when it comes to disparaging Westbrook.

 

[tlance]

I posted 1 career stat to illustrate rebounding. Not mixing and matching at all.

It is funny, because people were saying the exact same thing about the Spurs, that they were a 1 man team. Especially after Parker went down. I don't agree, but I am also on record saying that the Thunder others would have figured out how to play without Russ if he weren't on the team. They wouldn't have been great by any stretch, but they weren't the dumpster fire they appeared to be with Russ on the bench.

I attribute a lot of that to leadership. Russ does everything. He never empowered his teammates to play anything more than a minor support role. It is kind of like the overbearing parent that does everything for their kid. When the parent isn't around, the kid can't do anything for themself because they haven't learned how to.

Lastly, if the Rockets were doing everything they could to shut down Russ, then why in the heck was his usage rate 47%? Pass the freaking ball. The crazy thing is that I thought he played well and within himself in the first half of each game, then went full black hole mode in the second. That isn't good offense.

 

[flyerhawk]

I posted 1 career stat to illustrate rebounding. Not mixing and matching at all.

It is funny, because people were saying the exact same thing about the Spurs, that they were a 1 man team. Especially after Parker went down. I don't agree, but I am also on record saying that the Thunder others would have figured out how to play without Russ if he weren't on the team. They wouldn't have been great by any stretch, but they weren't the dumpster fire they appeared to be with Russ on the bench.

The Spurs are a one man team compared to the Warriors. In no other context could you possibly say that.

The Thunder are absolutely NOT a playoff team with RW. If you want to argue they would have 38 games instead of 32 without RW, knock yourself out.

I attribute a lot of that to leadership. Russ does everything. He never empowered his teammates to play anything more than a minor support role. It is kind of like the overbearing parent that does everything for their kid. When the parent isn't around, the kid can't do anything for themself because they haven't learned how to.

Who are the players waiting to come out of the shadows? Oladip? Sabonis? Kanter?

Lastly, if the Rockets were doing everything they could to shut down Russ, then why in the heck was his usage rate 47%? Pass the freaking ball. The crazy thing is that I thought he played well and within himself in the first half of each game, then went full black hole mode in the second. That isn't good offense.

He went full black hole because he was asked to do everything and would run out of gas. This is hardly uncommon. Funny to see someone criticize a player who averaged 11 assists a game as being someone who won't pass the ball.

 

[tlance]

The Spurs are a one man team compared to the Warriors. In no other context could you possibly say that.

The Thunder are absolutely NOT a playoff team with RW. If you want to argue they would have 38 games instead of 32 without RW, knock yourself out.



Who are the players waiting to come out of the shadows? Oladip? Sabonis? Kanter?



He went full black hole because he was asked to do everything and would run out of gas. This is hardly uncommon. Funny to see someone criticize a player who averaged 11 assists a game as being someone who won't pass the ball.

47% usage rate. That is insane.

Almost half of the team possessions ended in a Westbrook shot or TO. That is a mind boggling number. A completely indefensible number unless the Rockets were letting him go 1 on 1 with no help (they weren't).

 

[flyerhawk]

47% usage rate. That is insane.

Almost half of the team possessions ended in a Westbrook shot or TO. That is a mind boggling number. A completely indefensible number unless the Rockets were letting him go 1 on 1 with no help (they weren't).

Sure. So are those5 games the sum total of Westbrook's career?

Westbrook also had 11 assists a game in that series.

I'm not going to defend Westbrook or the Thunder in that series. I just don't think it is reasonable to use a single series to define a career. It was ridiculous when various Cavs fans were claiming that Kyrie was the best PG after the 2016 finals. It's just as ridiculous to criticize Westbrook for his performance.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

Ok.

How about this. Take KD out of the equation for a minute because I know you won't be able to be objective there.

What exactly does Westbrook do better than Kawhi aside from pile up stats?

He is a better playmaker, but really that is it. The rebounding difference gets exaggerated because Russ plays more minutes and he hunts defensive boards. Russ isn't necessarily better there, but again, some overrate him because of the stat sheet.

I know I said I would refrain from explanations here, but I could turn around and say what does Kawhi do better than Russ outside of individual defense?

If the major argument against Russ is that he's not a team player and doesn't make others better, then I pose the question - What Spurs player has become better as a result of playing with Kawhi? Is his game not iso-heavy in itself? Is he not somewhat a product of arguably the greatest basketball coach ever?

 

[CitySushi]

Sure. So are those5 games the sum total of Westbrook's career?

Westbrook also had 11 assists a game in that series.

I'm not going to defend Westbrook or the Thunder in that series. I just don't think it is reasonable to use a single series to define a career. It was ridiculous when various Cavs fans were claiming that Kyrie was the best PG after the 2016 finals. It's just as ridiculous to criticize Westbrook for his performance.

I think the usage rate is just to illustrate how inefficient Westbrook is. There's no doubt he's an elite talent and a true superstar, but that usage rate is crazy.

FYI, here are the usage rates of Michael Jordan in his 6 championship seasons:

32.9
31.7
34.7
33.3
33.2
33.7

That's the GOAT's usage rate.

 

[CitySushi]

I know I said I would refrain from explanations here, but I could turn around and say what does Kawhi do better than Russ outside of individual defense?

If the major argument against Russ is that he's not a team player and doesn't make others better, then I pose the question - What Spurs player has become better as a result of playing with Kawhi? Is his game not iso-heavy in itself? Is he not somewhat a product of arguably the greatest basketball coach ever?

There are a few intricacies, IMO, that put a damper on Kawhi's numbers.

1) The Spurs offense isn't heavily relied upon any one person. It's a free flow offense, where the right play is often made and the right person takes the shot. Pop even said Kawhi would be great once he learns that just because a play is called for him, doesn't mean he has to score. This is where Kawhi is better than Russ.

2) Kawhi is often guarding the best perimeter player for the opposing team. As such, it draws him further away from the hoop, limiting his opportunities for rebounds. It's much like Klay Thompson, who's career rebounding numbers have been sub-par for a guy 6'7". That's because he's been tasked with guarding the best perimeter player and drawn away from the hoop. A guy like Russ who's not defending at an elite level and gambling much more can hunt for rebounds, like we saw him do this year.

3) Kawhi's outside shooting is miles and miles above Russ.

Those are really the only comparables. Russ being a PG and Kawhi being a SF limit the comparisons that can be made. But those reasons above are why IMO Kawhi is a significantly better player.