My current framing of the MJ vs LeBron debate

[UK Cowboy]

Cmon man.

He started his Laker career in his age 34 season. Added AD at 35.

Jordan had already retired by then.

And no, Jordan does not score 45 a game.

That is silly.

In today's game? With today's defensive rules and the EFFORT given today? He might score 50 a night, literally lol. That just shows that you don't realize what the guy was Bro. Go team to team on a nightly basis and tell me who is guarding him lol. No one could guard him back then when you could place your hand on a defender and ride him, and what is today a flagrant 2 was just a common foul anytime he drove the lane. It would be an absolute joke today.
Take Steph in the Finals the year the refs really let them get physical with Steph. Steph couldn't do shit. I'm not knocking Steph, I think he is fucking awesome, but it's a different world when you can be hand checked and banged and you're not allowed a free landing on threes. It just is

 

[UK Cowboy]

Yea I think hes a very good comp to MJ

Its tough because Lebron and Jordan are two different type of players. Lebron is more Magic and MJ is more Kobe obviously. They both do different things better than the other.

If I have a team (like Magic) with a Kareem type player id rather have Lebron


If i need an ultra alpha with strong comp pieces i want MJ.

Yeah im not knocking LBJ by saying he isn't as good as MJ. That's like saying I'm insulting Mahomes for saying he isn't Brady. LBJ is great. I equate it to the simplest terms. Give me equal teams in the Finals, take both guys in their prime and put one on each team and MJ is kicking his ass and getting the Ring. I personally don't even think it's a question. The real question to me is, does LBJ beat Magic, Larry or Kobe in the same scenario? Maybe but IDK

 

[tlance]

In today's game? With today's defensive rules and the EFFORT given today? He might score 50 a night, literally lol. That just shows that you don't realize what the guy was Bro. Go team to team on a nightly basis and tell me who is guarding him lol. No one could guard him back then when you could place your hand on a defender and ride him, and what is today a flagrant 2 was just a common foul anytime he drove the lane. It would be an absolute joke today.
Take Steph in the Finals the year the refs really let them get physical with Steph. Steph couldn't do shit. I'm not knocking Steph, I think he is fucking awesome, but it's a different world when you can be hand checked and banged and you're not allowed a free landing on threes. It just is

I watched almost every game MJ played. WGN every night.

Your take is wrong and it shows that you don’t understand the current structure of the league.

Claiming MJ would get 45 to 50 a game is absurd.

Nobody can guard him today just like nobody could guard him during his era.

The year “they let the Cavs be physical with Steph” was the year he suffered a major injury in the playoffs, missed an entire series + and rushed back.

 

[UK Cowboy]

I watched almost every game MJ played. WGN every night.

Your take is wrong and it shows that you don’t understand the current structure of the league.

Claiming MJ would get 45 to 50 a game is absurd.

Im from Dallas, I'm a Mavs fan. Luka Doncic scored 34 a night last year my man. It would have been nearly 36 a game had he shot the same 85% from the line that MJ did(Luka was 78%) the majority of his career. And you don't think Jordan could score 45 a night? Ok my man, you're welcome to your opinion

 

[tlance]

Im from Dallas, I'm a Mavs fan. Luka Doncic scored 34 a night last year my man. It would have been nearly 36 a game had he shot the same 85% from the line that MJ did(Luka was 78%) the majority of his career. And you don't think Jordan could score 45 a night? Ok my man, you're welcome to your opinion

No I don’t.

Luka made 4 3s a game which are shots that are harder to take away than shots in the paint. More than makes up for the free throw disparity.

MJ obviously a much better player than Luka overall.

But he isn’t that much better of a scorer than today’s best scorers. Not to average 10-15 more points a game.

Averaging 45 is just not a realistic number over an 82 game regular season. Again, unless his team is prioritizing his scoring over more important team goals.

 

[UK Cowboy]

No I don’t.

Luka made 4 3s a game which are shots that are harder to take away than shots in the paint. More than makes up for the free throw disparity.

MJ obviously a much better player than Luka overall.

But he isn’t that much better of a scorer than today’s best scorers. Not to average 10-15 more points a game.

Averaging 45 is just not a realistic number over an 82 game regular season. Again, unless his team is prioritizing his scoring over more important team goals.

He didn't place scoring over team goals when he was scoring as many as 35-37 a game and on his way to going 6-0 in the Finals Lol. Most nights in the NBA today, the defensive effort is nothing short of laughable. MJ didn't load manage, so he would have had lots of games against even bigger scrub defenders than there are now anyway. And with today's rules? Again man, we just don't see this one the same. Respect your opinion but totally disagree

 

[tlance]

He didn't place scoring over team goals when he was scoring as many as 35-37 a game and on his way to going 6-0 in the Finals Lol. Most nights in the NBA today, the defensive effort is nothing short of laughable. MJ didn't load manage, so he would have had lots of games against even bigger scrub defenders than there are now anyway. And with today's rules? Again man, we just don't see this one the same. Respect your opinion but totally disagree

In the Finals. Small sample size where he is going to play a lot more minutes.

What is the math behind him getting to 45.

You really think he is taking over 30 shots a game? There are diminishing returns there.

Maybe a 23 year old MJ playing over 40 minutes on a bad team might get there.

30 year old MJ on a good team?

Sorry, not happening.

 

[UK Cowboy]

In the Finals. Small sample size where he is going to play a lot more minutes.

What is the math behind him getting to 45.

You really think he is taking over 30 shots a game? There are diminishing returns there.

Maybe a 23 year old MJ playing over 40 minutes on a bad team might get there.

30 year old MJ on a good team?

Sorry, not happening.

He would do it for 8 years straight. 40 a night with 45 for a high. And he would rack rings

 

[tlance]

He would do it for 8 years straight. 40 a night with 45 for a high. And he would rack rings

Not realistic based on what he actually accomplished, based on minutes, FGA.

No reason to think he would take 8-10 more shot per game than he averaged for his career when he already has the second highest FGA career average than any other player in NBA history.

There are 8 players currently averaging over 20 FGA. 3 players averaging over 21 FGA and only 1 averaging more than 21.4.

And the top 2 are both on terrible teams.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Not realistic based on what he actually accomplished, based on minutes, FGA.

No reason to think he would take 8-10 more shot per game than he averaged for his career when he already has the second highest FGA career average than any other player in NBA history.

There are 8 players currently averaging over 20 FGA. 3 players averaging over 21 FGA and only 1 averaging more than 21.4.

And the top 2 are both on terrible teams.

Luka scored 34 a game last season against today's defensive effort with today's rules. Jordan once scored 37 a game for a season against the defensive effort and rules of his day. Show me the Pistons or Knicks type defenses today. There are none. And you think Jordan couldn't get 3 more points vs today's players to get to 40? 8 to get to 45? You have to be kidding lol. He isn't the only one that would get 40+. Tell me, who the Hell in today's game would guard Shaq with the current don't touch rules. He would get nearly that much on dunks

 

[tlance]

Luka scored 34 a game last season against today's defensive effort with today's rules. Jordan once scored 37 a game for a season against the defensive effort and rules of his day. Show me the Pistons or Knicks type defenses today. There are none. And you think Jordan couldn't get 3 more points vs today's players to get to 40? 8 to get to 45? You have to be kidding lol. He isn't the only one that would get 40+. Tell me, who the Hell in today's game would guard Shaq with the current don't touch rules. He would get nearly that much on dunks

Nope.

23 year old Jordan scored 37 a game on a mediocre Chicago Bulls team that finished under .500.

He took 27.8 FGA that season which was by far the highest of his career. By far.

There is a reason he didn’t do that on the title contender teams.

And by the way, in 1987 when he scored 37 a game?

Defense was not better than it is today. There were no Jordan Rules. Teams averaged 110 points per game in that season, which is 3 points less than the average score today.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Nope.

23 year old Jordan scored 37 a game on a mediocre Chicago Bulls team that finished under .500.

He took 27.8 FGA that season which was by far the highest of his career. By far.

There is a reason he didn’t do that on the title contender teams.

And by the way, in 1987 when he scored 37 a game?

Defense was not better than it is today. There were no Jordan Rules. Teams averaged 110 points per game in that season, which is 3 points less than the average score today.

Not gonna argue something neither of us will budge on. We both believe what we believe, makes it fun in the end

 

[tlance]

Not gonna argue something neither of us will budge on. We both believe what we believe, makes it fun in the end

That i can agree on.

And for the record, I think they are co Goat. Tied at the top.

I don’t think MJ would be any less great in any era.

But many (not so much you aside from the 45+ a game) try to exaggerate MJ’s greatness while simultaneously being unreasonably harsh on LeBron.

 

[UK Cowboy]

That i can agree on.

And for the record, I think they are co Goat. Tied at the top.

I don’t think MJ would be any less great in any era.

But many (not so much you aside from the 45+ a game) try to exaggerate MJ’s greatness while simultaneously being unreasonably harsh on LeBron.

Yeah the only real point we disagree on is the 45 ppg, but while you say it's unrealistic, I can post 10 NBA coaches/HOF players who have said as much and must be delusional as well.
To me, its trying to factor in the changes in the game that have made scoring so much easier than it was back then. Much like comparing NFL greatness off numbers alone. Example...Dan Marino. In his first full season as starter, Marino passed for 5084 yards and 48 TD's, which dwarfed everyone else, many QB's were throwing for 2800 and 20. He had more yards and TD's than anyone in the NFL THIS season, when you literally can't breathe on a QB without a flag(back then you could blast the shit out of them) and where receivers aren't rode like a pony off the line of scrimmage or knocked unconscious if they went over the middle(no helmet to helmet, targeting or defenseless receiver). So if Marino doubles the mean average for yards and TD's back then and Damn near does it compared to today's rules, what's he throwing for if he plays in today's game with today's rules? I would say, but you and I will start arguing again lol

 

[Think McFly Think]

I would say, but you and I will start arguing again lol

Jk, it’s been a good back and forth and civil not like some of the arguments where there’s no give and simply back and forth “you’re wrong” responses.

However, some people are wrong tbf but most of them know it and just tryna get a rise outta people.

 

[UK Cowboy]

View attachment 386813
Jk, it’s been a good back and forth and civil not like some of the arguments where there’s no give and simply back and forth “you’re wrong” responses.

However, some people are wrong tbf but most of them know it and just tryna get a rise outta people.

I always try and be respectful to people who are respectful to me, and Lance has always been that. I save the name calling for the politics side where I am a Nazi racist because of how I vote lol

 

[Think McFly Think]

I always try and be respectful to people who are respectful to me, and Lance has always been that. I save the name calling for the politics side where I am a Nazi racist because of how I vote lol

The PF is a circus but I enjoy reading it. Lol

 

[tlance]

Yeah the only real point we disagree on is the 45 ppg, but while you say it's unrealistic, I can post 10 NBA coaches/HOF players who have said as much and must be delusional as well.
To me, its trying to factor in the changes in the game that have made scoring so much easier than it was back then. Much like comparing NFL greatness off numbers alone. Example...Dan Marino. In his first full season as starter, Marino passed for 5084 yards and 48 TD's, which dwarfed everyone else, many QB's were throwing for 2800 and 20. He had more yards and TD's than anyone in the NFL THIS season, when you literally can't breathe on a QB without a flag(back then you could blast the shit out of them) and where receivers aren't rode like a pony off the line of scrimmage or knocked unconscious if they went over the middle(no helmet to helmet, targeting or defenseless receiver). So if Marino doubles the mean average for yards and TD's back then and Damn near does it compared to today's rules, what's he throwing for if he plays in today's game with today's rules? I would say, but you and I will start arguing again lol

To be fair, many of the opinions of former players/coaches are way far out there. Basketball is such a major part of their lives it is tough to be objective about it.

As for Marino?

He was playing in a more modern pass first offense in an era when opposing defenses weren’t equipped to handle it.

Maybe he matches his best year?

But there are many other factors there. And with MJ it is almost like a cliche that I think a lot of people say.

“If Luka can average 33, what would MJ get?”

But it is really a math problem and the math doesn’t support anyone averaging that many points.

Because he was the ultimate competitor. He is not going to take bad shots to his number. And modern coaches aren’t playing him over 40 minutes a game to get his number. Over 30 shots a game is a really crazy amount.

Only sniffing that total if his teammates aren’t good.

 

[Wamu]

The only thing about LeBron that's unmatched are the laundry list of excuses for his failures.

Parker was never a Top 10 player and neither was Manu, even in their prime. Both them and Duncan were dinosaurs in 2013 and 2014. Kawhi wasn't a star player in either 2013 & 14

Kidd was a dinosaur in 2011. Westbrook and Harden weren't anything close to MVP level in 2012. Klay has inferior advanced metrics than Jeff Hornacek, John Starks and Hersey Hawkins. Draymond is a walking triple single.

How many HOFers you have is irrelevant to how they're playing at that moment. Or are you gonna cite 43-year-old Robert Parish as an example of how much help Jordan had simply because Parish ultimately made the HOF even though he only played mop up duty that year? Porter in '92 and KJ in '93 were better players than Tony Parker ever was and miles better than 38-year-old Jason Kidd.

In fact that Dallas team was constructed very similarly to the late '90s Jazz. The difference is Stockton was playing at a better level in '97 and '98 than Kidd was in 2011. And the Jazz weren't fortunate enough to have Jordan average 17 PPG in the Finals.

Your hate is hilarious.

 

[Wamu]

Also, not all Hall of Famers are created equally. Or to put it another way, not all are inducted based on merit

Frank Ramsey and Satch Sanders are in the HOF, not because they earned it, but simply because they just happened to be on the '60s Celtics. Toni Kukoc would not have been in the HOF had he spent his whole career with the Grizzlies. Klay Thompson and Draymond Green will only make it because they were on the 2010s Warriors. Or do you really think Draymond would be getting in if he'd spent his whole career in Detroit or Charlotte?

In case you missed it the first time your hate of LeBron is hilarious.