My current framing of the MJ vs LeBron debate

[Stakesarehigh]

We all saw how important Draymond was in 2020 when Curry and Klay were injured and Durant was gone; worst record in the conference.

Again, Klay has inferior metrics to Hornacek and Hawkins, who aren't Hall of Famers. He's not getting in on his own merit just like Frank Ramsey, Satch Sanders and Toni Kukoc. He's getting in because he just happened to be on a good team. Why not lower the standard even further and induct Bruce Bowen and Mario Elie? Again, not all HOFers are created equally.

Wow dude. What fucking metrics exactly? Jeff Hornacek was 34 (2 years from retiring) and averaged 10 points a game in the 98 playoffs

Hersey Hawkins shot 34 percent from 3 and average 12 a game.

Even adjusting for pace and scoring they don't sniff Klays output.

In your world 31 year old Tony Parker is a geriatric but 34 year old Jeff Hornacek is in prime condition.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Matter of fact to make this take even dumber how good was the 93 Sixers who had prime Hawkins and Hornacek together

26 and 56 anyone? Lol.

 

[tlance]

We all saw how important Draymond was in 2020 when Curry and Klay were injured and Durant was gone; worst record in the conference.

Again, Klay has inferior metrics to Hornacek and Hawkins, who aren't Hall of Famers. He's not getting in on his own merit just like Frank Ramsey, Satch Sanders and Toni Kukoc. He's getting in because he just happened to be on a good team. Why not lower the standard even further and induct Bruce Bowen and Mario Elie? Again, not all HOFers are created equally.

You are out of control.

Satch Sanders?

Klay Thompson was all NBA twice and 5 time all star. Draymond Green was a 4 time all star, 8 time all defense team and a DPOY.

Are these HOF resumes with 0 titles?

No, probably not. But they are still very good players.

Hornacek and Hawkins made all star teams once each and had no other significant individual accolades

Those are terrible comparisons.

You either:

Are lying to make your case look stronger

Or don’t know WTF you are talking about.

Either way, really takes the legs out from under you.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Klay and Dray are probably first ballot hall of famers you goober. Thanks for saving me the trouble of reading the rest of your bullshit

Klay no question, Dray, no

 

[tlance]

Klay no question, Dray, no

Dray no question about it

4 rings
4x all star
8x all defense (4 first team)
1 time 2nd team all NBA
DPOY

And represented USA in 2016 Olympics

On top of all this, he has a likely future in TV when he is done playing.

Easy first ballot HOF

 

[UK Cowboy]

Dray no question about it

4 rings
4x all star
8x all defense (4 first team)
1 time 2nd team all NBA
DPOY

And represented USA in 2016 Olympics

On top of all this, he has a likely future in TV when he is down playing.

Easy first ballot HOF

Draymond Green
8X All Defense
4 Rings
4X All Star
DPOY
8.7 ppg
6.9 rpg
5.6 apg

You're probably right that Green gets in, but only because the basketball HOF is far easier to get in to than MLB or the NFL HOF. His main claim to fame is the rings, but had he played for the Wizards or Jazz he wouldn't have any of those. Even so, I don't think he will be first ballot as some of the voters aren't going to be fans of the scumbag

 

[tlance]

Draymond Green
8X All Defense
4 Rings
4X All Star
DPOY
8.7 ppg
6.9 rpg
5.6 apg

You're probably right that Green gets in, but only because the basketball HOF is far easier to get in to than MLB or the NFL HOF. His main claim to fame is the rings, but had he played for the Wizards or Jazz he wouldn't have any of those. Even so, I don't think he will be first ballot as some of the voters aren't going to be fans of the scumbag

Not disagreeing about most of this. But you have to look at the resume as a whole.

Without Draymond, Klay and Curry probably don’t have any rings either.

Maybe LeBron has like 6 or 7 and there isn’t even a GOAT debate

 

[UK Cowboy]

Not disagreeing about most of this. But you have to look at the resume as a whole.

Without Draymond, Klay and Curry probably don’t have any rings either.

Maybe LeBron has like 6 or 7 and there isn’t even a GOAT debate

I completely disagree about Klay and Steph not getting any. That's absurd. In fact, with a decent replacement they probably get more. Is it that hard to find a 9/6 guy that plays good D? What if they had a food not great defender and he averaged 16/8? What if the replacement was a strong offensive player? Draymond is HOF for the same reason Michael Cooper is. To me, Draymond is a very poor man's Bobby Jones

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Not disagreeing about most of this. But you have to look at the resume as a whole.

Without Draymond, Klay and Curry probably don’t have any rings either.

Maybe LeBron has like 6 or 7 and there isn’t even a GOAT debate

Idk i think that KD team probably still gets a title without Dray.

Also agree he gets in as a first ballot because the NBA is a bit easier to enter

 

[tlance]

Idk i think that KD team probably still gets a title without Dray.

Also agree he gets in as a first ballot because the NBA is a bit easier to enter

I don’t think they get KD without Dray though

 

[tlance]

I completely disagree about Klay and Steph not getting any. That's absurd. In fact, with a decent replacement they probably get more. Is it that hard to find a 9/6 guy that plays good D? What if they had a food not great defender and he averaged 16/8? What if the replacement was a strong offensive player? Draymond is HOF for the same reason Michael Cooper is. To me, Draymond is a very poor man's Bobby Jones

You underrate Draymond.

But the biggest reason I have for making that claim is that I’m not sure they get Durant without Draymond.

Without Dray they don’t win in 2015, they don’t get to the Finals in 2016 (Steph missed an entire 2nd round series).

OKC probably comes out of the West that year and KD probably stays.

After that, GS is just another good team that is a piece or 2 away from a title.

Draymond today is replaceable. Peak Draymond was a very high level Swiss Army knife and I am not sure we have ever seen another player quite like him.

 

[msgkings322]

Klay no question, Dray, no

Dray might be more of a lock. Hall of fame for sure. You guys are too focused on points per game. He’s every bit as good a player as Rodman. Less rebounds, more points and assists

 

[broncosmitty]

… BIG player of the year, All American, National player of the year…

Dude is a lock for the HOF. There’s no use hating.

 

[UK Cowboy]

You underrate Draymond.

But the biggest reason I have for making that claim is that I’m not sure they get Durant without Draymond.

Without Dray they don’t win in 2015, they don’t get to the Finals in 2016 (Steph missed an entire 2nd round series).

OKC probably comes out of the West that year and KD probably stays.

After that, GS is just another good team that is a piece or 2 away from a title.

Draymond today is replaceable. Peak Draymond was a very high level Swiss Army knife and I am not sure we have ever seen another player quite like him.

Yeah man we just disagree. You're not factoring in the fact that someone else would have been in Draymonds spot making Draymonds money. And nobody guarded Draymond for about 10 years. Not literally, but everyone designed their defense around stopping and helping on Steph and Klay.
We also disagree on your comment on helping get LBJ to 6-7 rings and make the GOAT debate mute. Its already mute to me. I hear every year tte Lakers can't get it done because they don't have pieces around LBJ. FFS, he's had Anthony freaking Davis the entire time. That would be like MJ having Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan instead of Stottie...OK lol! Plus, if MJ played today, no handchecking, no forearm in the back, no knocked to the ground on drives, no Jordan rules...he scores 45 a night easy

 

[Stakesarehigh]

I don’t think they get KD without Dray though

Fair

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Yeah man we just disagree. You're not factoring in the fact that someone else would have been in Draymonds spot making Draymonds money. And nobody guarded Draymond for about 10 years. Not literally, but everyone designed their defense around stopping and helping on Steph and Klay.
We also disagree on your comment on helping get LBJ to 6-7 rings and make the GOAT debate mute. Its already mute to me. I hear every year tte Lakers can't get it done because they don't have pieces around LBJ. FFS, he's had Anthony freaking Davis the entire time. That would be like MJ having Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan instead of Stottie...OK lol! Plus, if MJ played today, no handchecking, no forearm in the back, no knocked to the ground on drives, no Jordan rules...he scores 45 a night easy

I think it would be roughly a wash with the ability to zone MJ. League not as physical for sure but its also overlooked that you can D up athletic guards differently

MJ would have still been GOAT A or B in any era though.

 

[tlance]

Dray might be more of a lock. Hall of fame for sure. You guys are too focused on points per game. He’s every bit as good a player as Rodman. Less rebounds, more points and assists

Better than Rodman.

And somehow probably less of a locker room headache too

 

[tlance]

Yeah man we just disagree. You're not factoring in the fact that someone else would have been in Draymonds spot making Draymonds money. And nobody guarded Draymond for about 10 years. Not literally, but everyone designed their defense around stopping and helping on Steph and Klay.
We also disagree on your comment on helping get LBJ to 6-7 rings and make the GOAT debate mute. Its already mute to me. I hear every year tte Lakers can't get it done because they don't have pieces around LBJ. FFS, he's had Anthony freaking Davis the entire time. That would be like MJ having Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan instead of Stottie...OK lol! Plus, if MJ played today, no handchecking, no forearm in the back, no knocked to the ground on drives, no Jordan rules...he scores 45 a night easy

Cmon man.

He started his Laker career in his age 34 season. Added AD at 35.

Jordan had already retired by then.

And no, Jordan does not score 45 a game today.

That is silly.

 

[tlance]

I think it would be roughly a wash with the ability to zone MJ. League not as physical for sure but its also overlooked that you can D up athletic guards differently

MJ would have still been GOAT A or B in any era though.

Yep.

Watch how SGA plays.

Jordan would be a better version of that.

Best player, best scorer.

But not getting 45 a game unless the team is prioritizing his scoring over winning.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Yep.

Watch how SGA plays.

Jordan would be a better version of that.

Best player, best scorer.

But not getting 45 a game unless the team is prioritizing his scoring over winning.

Yea I think hes a very good comp to MJ

Its tough because Lebron and Jordan are two different type of players. Lebron is more Magic and MJ is more Kobe obviously. They both do different things better than the other.

If I have a team (like Magic) with a Kareem type player id rather have Lebron


If i need an ultra alpha with strong comp pieces i want MJ.