Manning chooses Broncos

[Flyingiguana]

That's hard to do when your QB is 27th in YPG.

This is a chicken-or-egg discussion. One side argues Crabtree isn't good and the other argues Smith isn't good. And some argue that both are probably true. The reality is that we don't really know the extent to which Crabtree could flourish with a better QB, or that Smith could flourish with better WRs. I'm not willing to entirely exonerate Smith as Crabtree has produced as well or better than any WR we have had with Smith at QB. At some point, you've got to look at the QB.

well there's a reason why crabtree is now #3 on our depth charts...

 

[Flyingiguana]

See, there you go posting stupid shit again. Then you get bothered when people throw the inverse back at you with Smith. Crabtree is a decent starting WR, just as Smith is a decent QB. Neither is great. Neither is awful. Stop the sensationalism.

Crabtree was locked down because Smith won't throw into coverage. He was open enough that a QB like Manning would have hit him. His one reception is a case in point of Smith's limitations. 3rd and 5 from the 10ish. Crabtree was open and had a great chance to pick up a first down at the 5, but Smith threw above and behind him, giving his no chance to pick up the first down. Smith was not pressured, he just missed the throw. It's not all the receivers and OL. When Smith has chances to make plays, he fails to do so too often.

Anyway, I'm spending way too much time in this thread. I'm out for awhile.

it would have been nothing but 3 -5 yard pick ups had smith tried to throw to crabtree against the giants. even a linebacker closed on crabtree when he had a step.

just because smith didn't put up a big year doesn't mean crabtree is a worthy starter on any team. he would be much more effective as a #3 and even then i would be looking for an upgrade. he's not a burner, he's not a possession wr, wtf is he good for?

there isn't a team in the league where crabtree would be an upgrade as a #1 wr. smith would be an upgrade on a few teams at least. (to edit: the browns, but do they even count?)

 

[jayviabay]

it would have been nothing but 3 -5 yard pick ups had smith tried to throw to crabtree against the giants. even a linebacker closed on crabtree when he had a step.

just because smith didn't put up a big year doesn't mean crabtree is a worthy starter on any team. he would be much more effective as a #3 and even then i would be looking for an upgrade. he's not a burner, he's not a possession wr, wtf is he good for?

there isn't a team in the league where crabtree would be an upgrade as a #1 wr. smith would be an upgrade on a few teams at least. (to edit: the browns, but do they even count?)

you are horrible at supporting your opinions. you make the statement, " smith would be an upgrade on a few teams", and produce only the browns and turn around to ask, " do they even count?" Why dont you list a few teams excluding the browns?
Im not saying i dont agree with you but I would like to see you support a statement with evidence that has substance.

 

[Flyingiguana]

[/B]

you are horrible at supporting your opinions. you make the statement, " smith would be an upgrade on a few teams", and produce only the browns and turn around to ask, " do they even count?" Why dont you list a few teams excluding the browns?
Im not saying i dont agree with you but I would like to see you support a statement with evidence that has substance.

it's an opinion. outside of cleveland i don;t think crabtree would be an upgrade over what they had last year as their #1 wr.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

well there's a reason why crabtree is now #3 on our depth charts...

He is? Last I checked, there wasn't even a depth chart posted on the team site. Not that those things are particularly accurate anyway.

 

[jayviabay]

it's an opinion. outside of cleveland i don;t think crabtree would be an upgrade over what they had last year as their #1 wr.

I would say yes. I support my claim using the "viper" rule of measurement. Greg Little only had 50% of the TD output that Crabtree had. Therefore making him 100% better than Little...

 

[ViperVisor]

I would say yes. I support my claim using the "viper" rule of measurement. Greg Little only had 50% of the TD output that Crabtree had. Therefore making him 100% better than Little...

I rule using standard measures. Not feelings and BS.

 

[Flyingiguana]

I would say yes. I support my claim using the "viper" rule of measurement. Greg Little only had 50% of the TD output that Crabtree had. Therefore making him 100% better than Little...

looking at cleveland's offense i could see holmgren going richardson, tannehil and a wr with in the first couple rounds. i wouldn't be surprised to see them take another wr in the 3rd.

outside of cleveland which has basically nothing on offense crabtree wouldn't top the depth charts at wr. he could work as a #2 but an offense can't function properly having him as a #1. that became painfully obvious after the injuries we had and a reason why i was saying we needed to get lloyd or owens.

manningham and crabtree is workable for us considering we have vernon.

 

[Flyingiguana]

He is? Last I checked, there wasn't even a depth chart posted on the team site. Not that those things are particularly accurate anyway.

so do u think crabtree is better than manningham?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

it would have been nothing but 3 -5 yard pick ups had smith tried to throw to crabtree against the giants. even a linebacker closed on crabtree when he had a step.

just because smith didn't put up a big year doesn't mean crabtree is a worthy starter on any team. he would be much more effective as a #3 and even then i would be looking for an upgrade. he's not a burner, he's not a possession wr, wtf is he good for?

there isn't a team in the league where crabtree would be an upgrade as a #1 wr. smith would be an upgrade on a few teams at least. (to edit: the browns, but do they even count?)

We needed five yards when Smith threw above and behind Crabtree, limiting him to three yards.

3-5 yards isn't great. It's better than a sack or an incompletion, though.

Today, Crabtree would be an upgrade on the Jags, Browns, Seahawks, and Rams. He would have upgraded the Bears last year, and would upgrade Miami now. And again, you keep jumping from he's not a #1 - which he isn't at present - to he's not a starter. That's simply false.

As for not being a burner or a possession receiver, again, we could as easily say Smith can't throw the deep ball and lacks accuracy and touch short. Virtually all your critiques of Crabtree could be turned around and leveled at Smith.

 

[jayviabay]

I rule using standard measures. Not feelings and BS.

LOL... OK

 

[Crimsoncrew]

so do u think crabtree is better than manningham?

I think Crabtree has more physical ability. I haven't seen enough of Manningham recently to have a strong sense of where the two of them stand right now, though. I'm also not certain Moss is capable of being an every-down WR at this point in his career. I think our WR corps is very unsettled, and I'm sure there will be competition for starting spots.

But you have said Manningham is already ahead of Crabtree. Do you have any support for that claim?

 

[Flyingiguana]

We needed five yards when Smith threw above and behind Crabtree, limiting him to three yards.

3-5 yards isn't great. It's better than a sack or an incompletion, though.

Today, Crabtree would be an upgrade on the Jags, Browns, Seahawks, and Rams. He would have upgraded the Bears last year, and would upgrade Miami now. And again, you keep jumping from he's not a #1 - which he isn't at present - to he's not a starter. That's simply false.

As for not being a burner or a possession receiver, again, we could as easily say Smith can't throw the deep ball and lacks accuracy and touch short. Virtually all your critiques of Crabtree could be turned around and leveled at Smith.

vernon did hold a record for tds until last year. saying smith can't throw a deep ball is just coming up with stupid crap. smith does lack touch on his passes and doesn't have the arm strength for an out. however, he's shown this past year that he is good enough to be a quality starter in the league. having some actual targets like moss and manningham will only help smith progress further.

my analysis of crabtree won't change with a different qb. he cannot get seperation, it's a basic requirement for any wr in the nfl. this was a question mark going into the draft and i'm assuming crabtree would have done badly at the combine had he not been injured.

if crabtree can be 100% healthy and get his ass into camp to work on his route running. maybe, just maybe he will turn things around. if i had to choose between morgan and crabtree, i would have taken morgan anyday of the week. morgan looked like he was about to have a solid season last year.

 

[Flyingiguana]

I think Crabtree has more physical ability. I haven't seen enough of Manningham recently to have a strong sense of where the two of them stand right now, though. I'm also not certain Moss is capable of being an every-down WR at this point in his career. I think our WR corps is very unsettled, and I'm sure there will be competition for starting spots.

But you have said Manningham is already ahead of Crabtree. Do you have any support for that claim?

how the hell am i suppose to have support to say manningham is ahead of crabtree? manningham has the ability to seperate and stretch the d. i believe manningham ran 4.4? not many defensive backs are gonna close on him once he gets a step.

the speed is gonna be the difference between the two once camp opens. manningham will only help crabtree since crabtree will not be getting covered by the other teams top corner most of the time.

 

[ViperVisor]

LOL... OK

QB Rating. A 90+ one.

Name the QBs who started there career before 1998 who ended their career with that.

It is 2. Montana and Young.

Take it down to 85. Add Marino and Favre.

90 isn't great anymore but it is still very good.

Alex Smith had a very good year.

 

[MHSL82]

We needed five yards when Smith threw above and behind Crabtree, limiting him to three yards.

3-5 yards isn't great. It's better than a sack or an incompletion, though.

Today, Crabtree would be an upgrade on the Jags, Browns, Seahawks, and Rams. He would have upgraded the Bears last year, and would upgrade Miami now. And again, you keep jumping from he's not a #1 - which he isn't at present - to he's not a starter. That's simply false.

As for not being a burner or a possession receiver, again, we could as easily say Smith can't throw the deep ball and lacks accuracy and touch short. Virtually all your critiques of Crabtree could be turned around and leveled at Smith.

But it isn't better than an interception - but then again, it appears Alex has a different definition of what is risky/covered than we do. I'll defer to him because he plays and I don't, but I think he could defer to Manning, who throws to covered players for gains regularly.

 

[zman1527]

As for not being a burner or a possession receiver, again, we could as easily say Smith can't throw the deep ball and lacks accuracy and touch short. Virtually all your critiques of Crabtree could be turned around and leveled at Smith.

You want to run that opinion past Vernon? How is that Alex could complete several perfect long balls to Vernon in the last 2 games yet basically none to Crabs all year? Alex showed he can make the throws. Did Crabs ever show that he can get open?

 

[jjoshi]

Don't take it personally you guys. Yall is still better then they are.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

vernon did hold a record for tds until last year. saying smith can't throw a deep ball is just coming up with stupid crap.

Smith throws the deep seam pass well. It's the only deep ball he throws well. He is very poor throwing deep along the sidelines. You know, where WRs run most of their deeper routes.

smith does lack touch on his passes and doesn't have the arm strength for an out. however, he's shown this past year that he is good enough to be a quality starter in the league. having some actual targets like moss and manningham will only help smith progress further.

I agree Smith has shown he's good enough to be a quality starter in the league. The quality is about average, but that's fine. Let's not overstate his abilities, though, or understate the talent around him.

my analysis of crabtree won't change with a different qb. he cannot get seperation, it's a basic requirement for any wr in the nfl. this was a question mark going into the draft and i'm assuming crabtree would have done badly at the combine had he not been injured.

Manningham was a third receiver playing with a QB who routinely throws into tight spaces. Part of why Manningham had some great grabs was because Manningham doesn't get great separation. I'll be very interested to see what he does with Smith at QB, but I'm skeptical that he beats out Crabtree.

if crabtree can be 100% healthy and get his ass into camp to work on his route running. maybe, just maybe he will turn things around. if i had to choose between morgan and crabtree, i would have taken morgan anyday of the week. morgan looked like he was about to have a solid season last year.

And the FO disagreed with you. They repeatedly placed Crabtree above Morgan, including refusing to extend Morgan for a pretty reasonable rate. It's easy to say Morgan looked like he was about to have a solid season. He didn't. Crabtree put up more yards than any other WR has had with Smith at QB.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

how the hell am i suppose to have support to say manningham is ahead of crabtree? manningham has the ability to seperate and stretch the d. i believe manningham ran 4.4? not many defensive backs are gonna close on him once he gets a step.

the speed is gonna be the difference between the two once camp opens. manningham will only help crabtree since crabtree will not be getting covered by the other teams top corner most of the time.

Then why did you say it? This is precisely the kind of BS I'm taking about.

As for Manningham, he ran a 4.59 at the combine. He ran a 4.42 at his pro day, but I'm skeptical of any difference that big. His three-cone and short shuttle were also pretty poor. If you're expecting him to stretch the field, I think you'll be disappointed. Getting separation deep is not his game. He's a better route-runner than Crabtree right now, but I think they're fairly similar players. Although Manningham is quite a bit smaller.

I'm skeptical than Manningham is much more than a third receiver, and very skeptical he can be a #1.