Is Sandy Koufax a Top 3 Pitcher of All-Time, Based on Actual Results

[broncosmitty]

No I didn't. I said that Roger Clemens, the guy that is the greatest pitcher of all time, is first on the list. That's all I said. Show me where I gave it as the reason, let alone the sole reason, I rank Clemens first.

Go back two pages.

Got another reason for Clemens being the best pitcher ever?

 

[Omar 382]

Go back two pages.

Got another reason for Clemens being the best pitcher ever?

Sure, among pitchers with 3,000 IP, he's first all time in FIP-, 4th in K/9, 11th in K/BB, and had a great BB/9 and HR/9 that is low on the all-time list because of deadballers pitching in a different era, all while throwing nearly ~5,000 innings, being 16th behind a bunch of guys who started every other day.

The most important stats for a pitcher are walks, hit-by-pitches, strikeouts, home runs. Those are the only things a pitcher can largely control. Anything else is on the defense or offense. That's why I love FIP. And I like FIP- even more because it takes into account different leagues throughout baseball, comparing 1900 to 1990. And Roger Clemens is first in FIP-.

 

[Omar 382]

Go back two pages.

Got another reason for Clemens being the best pitcher ever?

Honestly, I know your position on the subject and understand you're probably not going to change it, but your crusade against statistics is ill-conceived, and bordering on creepy. Do you really want to be on the same side of history as the Catholic Church in regards to the earth and the sun, or the Klan in regards to Civil Rights? An improvement in knowledge in an area is a good thing, not a bad thing.

It's a shame, you probably know the most about the all of the players in MLB history on these boards, more than even me. If you paired that with even a basic understanding and acceptance of advanced statistics, you'd be a beast. As it is, you're middle-tier. Definitely smarter than the retards, AKA @UK Cowboy, @The Oldtimer, @Guns N Guitars, and many others, but not as smart as the likes of me, @navamind, @There is A Moose at 3rd, or @StanMarsh51.

 

[broncosmitty]

Sure, among pitchers with 3,000 IP, he's first all time in FIP-, 4th in K/9, 11th in K/BB, and had a great BB/9 and HR/9 that is low on the all-time list because of deadballers pitching in a different era, all while throwing nearly ~5,000 innings, being 16th behind a bunch of guys who started every other day.

The most important stats for a pitcher are walks, hit-by-pitches, strikeouts, home runs. Those are the only things a pitcher can largely control. Anything else is on the defense or offense. That's why I love FIP. And I like FIP- even more because it takes into account different leagues throughout baseball, comparing 1900 to 1990. And Roger Clemens is first in FIP-.

Deadball guys didn't start all that much more than any era up to the five man rotation. They went longer into games and pitched in relief on days off. Even Cy Young never started 50 games in a season.

My boy Rube only started 40 or more once.

It's a team sport, no need to pretend that doesn't have an impact

 

[Omar 382]

Deadball guys didn't start all that much more than any era up to the five man rotation. They went longer into games and pitched in relief on days off. Even Cy Young never started 50 games in a season.

My boy Rube only started 40 or more once.

It's a team sport, no need to pretend that doesn't have an impact

Interesting, never realized that. Still far more GS than pitchers today.

See what I mean? You've got the intricacies and context down pat. Now just go read Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract

 

[broncosmitty]

Honestly, I know your position on the subject and understand you're probably not going to change it, but your crusade against statistics is ill-conceived, and bordering on creepy. Do you really want to be on the same side of history as the Catholic Church in regards to the earth and the sun, or the Klan in regards to Civil Rights? An improvement in knowledge in an area is a good thing, not a bad thing.

It's a shame, you probably know the most about the all of the players in MLB history on these boards, more than even me. If you paired that with even a basic understanding and acceptance of advanced statistics, you'd be a beast. As it is, you're middle-tier. Definitely smarter than the retards, AKA @UK Cowboy, @The Oldtimer, @Guns N Guitars, and many others, but not as smart as the likes of me, @navamind, @There is A Moose at 3rd, or @StanMarsh51.

Suck a dick kid.

 

[Omar 382]

Deadball guys didn't start all that much more than any era up to the five man rotation. They went longer into games and pitched in relief on days off. Even Cy Young never started 50 games in a season.

My boy Rube only started 40 or more once.

It's a team sport, no need to pretend that doesn't have an impact

We're measuring individual player performance. Players do indeed play on teams, that's why we try our best to isolate them from their team performances. Is Tom Glavine better than Mike Mussina because he had Andruw Jones in center field?

 

[Omar 382]

Suck a dick kid.

I don't know what I did to upset you. I was complimenting you. If I came off patronizing, I apologize, it wasn't my intention.

 

[williewilliejuan]

Immediately disqualified because of his misguided affiliation with the Dodgers.

 

[broncosmitty]

We're measuring individual player performance. Players do indeed play on teams, that's why we try our best to isolate them from their team performances. Is Tom Glavine better than Mike Mussina because he had Andruw Jones in center field?

You're making shit up and pretending it's reality.

You can't isolate everything. Baseball is governed by discretion calls. A strike is called a ball, it extends an inning. An out is ruled safe, inning is extended. Errors, wind, day, night, home, away, all have an impact. Things are not uniform, or fair. Your plus stats are make believe and you think other people are the ones with a problem?

Use em to prognosticate what some kid may develop into. Maybe somebody will pay you? Who knows. But don't think you can rewrite history by changing reality that's already taken place.

 

[The Oldtimer]

And if someone wants to say Nolan Ryan is the 6th greatest pitcher of all time, they'd probably be wrong, but they'd be closer than someone saying Koufax is a top 3 pitcher of all time.

And again that is your opinion. You are the one that started this thread, yet you don't seem to think that everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[broncosmitty]

I don't know what I did to upset you. I was complimenting you. If I came off patronizing, I apologize, it wasn't my intention.

Your arrogance did it that time.

 

[Omar 382]

You're making shit up and pretending it's reality.

You can't isolate everything. Baseball is governed by discretion calls. A strike is called a ball, it extends an inning. An out is ruled safe, inning is extended. Errors, wind, day, night, home, away, all have an impact. Things are not uniform, or fair. Your plus stats are make believe and you think other people are the ones with a problem?

Use em to prognosticate what some kid may develop into. Maybe somebody will pay you? Who knows. But don't think you can rewrite history by changing reality that's already taken place.

There's no doubt that you can't isolate everything. You're putting words in my mouth. I specifically said "we try our best to isolate them from their team performances."

 

[Omar 382]

And again that is your opinion. You are the one that started this thread, yet you don't seem to think that everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I'm not allowed to argue my opinion? I thought that's the whole point of a sports message board.

 

[Omar 382]

Your arrogance did it that time.

I don't think I was being arrogant by saying you don't know a whole ton about stats. You openly advertise it. And I said you know the most about the game's history. Calling your knowledge of the game mid-tier, though partially tongue-in-cheek, was probable to offend in hindsight, but that's just how I see it- statistics are a vital part of the game. You're welcome to disagree, which you've been doing, but I don't see a reason to tell me to eat a dick. If you feel that way, fine, I won't lose sleep over it, but I thought the discussion was purely about baseball, and baseball knowledge, not whether we should or should not give fellatio to other guys.

 

[broncosmitty]

There's no doubt that you can't isolate everything. You're putting words in my mouth. I specifically said "we try our best to isolate them from their team performances."

You are trying your best at something that can't be done imo. Doing it at all, when you know outside factors can't be removed from anyone's pitching, does not jive with statistics.

For the reasons I stated earlier.

It's no longer a measurement of onfield play, but a creation.

 

[broncosmitty]

I don't think I was being arrogant by saying you don't know a whole ton about stats. You openly advertise it. And I said you know the most about the game's history. Calling your knowledge of the game mid-tier, though partially tongue-in-cheek, was probable to offend in hindsight, but that's just how I see it- statistics are a vital part of the game. You're welcome to disagree, which you've been doing, but I don't see a reason to tell me to eat a dick. If you feel that way, fine, I won't lose sleep over it, but I thought the discussion was purely about baseball, and baseball knowledge, not whether we should or should not give fellatio to other guys.

You can say what you want about me. I spend half my time on this looking for people to call me names. My skin is not thin.

It's your arrogance in regards to yourself. How you're right and others are retards for disagreeing. It's a shitty mindset.

I don't know half as much about baseball as people I'm around nearly everyday in real life. I don't pretend otherwise, they don't hold it against me.

 

[The Oldtimer]

I'm not allowed to argue my opinion? I thought that's the whole point of a sports message board.

Yes we all are allowed to state our opinions.

 

[mr.hockey4242]

I don't think I was being arrogant by saying you don't know a whole ton about stats. You openly advertise it. And I said you know the most about the game's history. Calling your knowledge of the game mid-tier, though partially tongue-in-cheek, was probable to offend in hindsight, but that's just how I see it- statistics are a vital part of the game. You're welcome to disagree, which you've been doing, but I don't see a reason to tell me to eat a dick. If you feel that way, fine, I won't lose sleep over it, but I thought the discussion was purely about baseball, and baseball knowledge, not whether we should or should not give fellatio to other guys.

Let's completey push aside whether or not adavanced stats are what determines baseball hierarchy.

I'm just curious if you legitamaetly believe taking the time to read advanced stats provided for you, makes you knowledgeable on baseball? That doesnt in any way mean you know the game, all it means is you can read what someone else thinks they know. Your "knowledge" is second hand.

Like me when i went to the back of the book for answers in math. I don't fucking know math, but the correct answer was provided for me.

 

[Omar 382]

You can say what you want about me. I spend half my time on this looking for people to call me names. My skin is not thin.

It's your arrogance in regards to yourself. How you're right and others are retards for disagreeing. It's a shitty mindset.

I don't know half as much about baseball as people I'm around nearly everyday in real life. I don't pretend otherwise, they don't hold it against me.

Baseball is the only area that I have such a mindset, and even then, it's very rare that I have it. I don't go around these boards calling everyone a retard. But when you know the sky is blue, you're going to tell others the sky is blue, even if the sky isn't in fact blue in actuality.

You questioned why I picked Clemens as first and then I gave my reasons. It was stupid to talk with you about it, because you think all of my reasons are fairy-tale bullshit.