Is Luka for AD the most shocking trade of all time

[msgkings322]

Maybe. You might be right. But maybe not. Moving to Vegas wouldn't devalue the franchise for a family that owned the Sands. Moving means new Jersey money, a new stadium, new endorsement deals in a town they are totally plugged into. If you're right, Nico is an incompetent dimwit who didn't open up the Luka bidding to a league that would have had multiple teams give up half their players and draft picks out the ass for Luka instead of a 32 year old and a 2 year Title window. I don't think Nico is that stupid, so I think this is the only thing that makes sense. Saying a 25 year old who just led a team, that other than himself, had maybe the 7th or 8th most talent in the West all the way to the Finals will never be able to win you one because he drinks beer after the game? No way IMO

Might be wrong about Luka but I’m definitely right about the Mavs not moving to Vegas.

 

[msgkings322]

Also...smart doesn't trade Luka....

As a Dallas fan you will understandably have trouble viewing this objectively

 

[tc1]

Tatum was 4th and 6th and 6th the past 3 seasons.

Doncic was 3rd in voting last year.

Doncic was 3rd... with 4 first place votes. Compared to 79 for Jokic, and 15 even for Gilgeous-Alexander. So no, he was no where close. Tatum had zero first place votes (in both referenced seasons), and finished behind Brunson.

Off the top of my head..

Brooklyn
Raptors
Knicks
Pacers
Pistons
Bulls
Heat
Magic
Hawks
Hornets
Wizards
Blazers
Jazz
Kings
Grizzlies
Rockets

So Brunson ( who has been 5th ) is not MVP caliber, but Edwards ( 7th ) is? But Morant ( 7th ) is not, either? And not Sabonis ( also 7th )? Which Pelican is MVP caliber? None have ever received a vote. Seems to be a lot of randomness applied here.

More to the point, you just reduced your statement from "You must have an MVP caliber player to win a title" to just about "You must be in the top half of the league to win a title". Which is almost, but not completely, a meaningless tautology.

 

[UK Cowboy]

As a Dallas fan you will understandably have trouble viewing this objectively

Are the other 29 franchises non objective Mavs fans too? Because they all think it was nuts as well

 

[flyerhawk]

Doncic was 3rd... with 4 first place votes. Compared to 79 for Jokic, and 15 even for Gilgeous-Alexander. So no, he was no where close. Tatum had zero first place votes (in both referenced seasons), and finished behind Brunson.



So Brunson ( who has been 5th ) is not MVP caliber, but Edwards ( 7th ) is? But Morant ( 7th ) is not, either? And not Sabonis ( also 7th )? Which Pelican is MVP caliber? None have ever received a vote. Seems to be a lot of randomness applied here.

More to the point, you just reduced your statement from "You must have an MVP caliber player to win a title" to just about "You must be in the top half of the league to win a title". Which is almost, but not completely, a meaningless tautology.

You are being way too literal here. The MVP votes are a general indication. If it makes you feel better use All-NBA first team awards as a metric. That's basically Top 5 in the league.

Seems like you want to argue for the sake of arguing. How you got "you must be in the top half of the league to win a title" from anything I said is truly bizarre.

If you think that Sabonis and Morant are on the same level as Doncic and Tatum then there is no point with further discussion.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Which articles?



Tatum was 4th and 6th and 6th the past 3 seasons.



Doncic was 3rd in voting last year.



Off the top of my head..

Brooklyn
Raptors
Knicks
Pacers
Pistons
Bulls
Heat
Magic
Hawks
Hornets
Wizards
Blazers
Jazz
Kings
Grizzlies
Rockets

Those are the pretty easy ones. That's half the league right out of the gate. After that you have the teams that either have a player that WAS an MVP level player but isn't anymore(Warriors, Mavs) or have a player who isn't quite MVP level yet but could become that(Twolves, Spurs)

So there are about 10 teams that can reach this threshold.

Is is possible that one of the above teams could win a title despite the lack of a marquee MVP level player? Sure. But it's pretty rare and requires a really stacked team.

So on point. Every team in the League would have wanted Luka. Ive listened to reporters plugged into different teams all day talk about what their squads would have given up for Luka and its sickening to hear as a Mavs fan

 

[msgkings322]

Are the other 29 franchises non objective Mavs fans too? Because they all think it was nuts as well

Also an exaggeration.

I've said many times, LA got the better player especially for the future. But Dallas did get back enough to not call this the worst trade ever. They wanted to move off Luka and not pay him. That's a gamble they took. They got plenty back. A bidding war maybe gets more back but that would have been an even bigger PR nightmare and more disrespectful to Luka and the fans.

 

[dtgold88]

I think the clear comparison statistically as well as style is Larry Bird. If Luka gets in shape and makes a defensive effort, he is right there with Larry Legend. That's a top 10 all time player which makes your ongoing Luka bash even more ridiculous

Think you could even make a case he's better than Bird. I think Luka would win titles with the type of talent Bird had around him.

I don't say this to diminish Bird as he was amazing and one of my all time favorites.

 

[tc1]

You are being way too literal here. The MVP votes are a general indication. If it makes you feel better use All-NBA first team awards as a metric. That's basically Top 5 in the league.

All-NBA is worse, since it is position dependent except for last year. The 2 best players in the league could play the same position -- in fact, this has often been the case.

Seems like you want to argue for the sake of arguing. How you got "you must be in the top half of the league to win a title" from anything I said is truly bizarre.

Holy cow, it is very simple. You started with "Must have an MVP caliber player". Then you stated that half of the league fits that bill, and those teams are almost exclusively in the top half of the league.

If you think that Sabonis and Morant are on the same level as Doncic and Tatum then there is no point with further discussion.

I'm trying to pin down this concept you have of "MVP caliber" players, since it is apparently essential to being a contender, according to you. It does not appear that you actually have any precision on that concept.

 

[msgkings322]

You are being way too literal here. The MVP votes are a general indication. If it makes you feel better use All-NBA first team awards as a metric. That's basically Top 5 in the league.

Seems like you want to argue for the sake of arguing. How you got "you must be in the top half of the league to win a title" from anything I said is truly bizarre.

If you think that Sabonis and Morant are on the same level as Doncic and Tatum then there is no point with further discussion.

Just figuring that out? This guy is the real deal internet asshole LOL. Makes dtgold look like a piker.

 

[dtgold88]

And they are smart so they won't devalue the franchise moving to a lesser market.

agree....and not like you need to be in Vegas to build a casino.

 

[msgkings322]

All-NBA is worse, since it is position dependent except for last year. The 2 best players in the league could play the same position -- in fact, this has often been the case.



Holy cow, it is very simple. You started with "Must have an MVP caliber player". Then you stated that half of the league fits that bill, and those teams are almost exclusively in the top half of the league.




I'm trying to pin down this concept you have of "MVP caliber" players, since it is apparently essential to being a contender, according to you. It does not appear that you actually have any precision on that concept.

Not everything needs laser precision to make sense in good natured internet sports arguments. Most people who post in places like this have some heuristics for categorizing players and 'MVP type/MVP caliber' is an imprecise but generally understood term. The last team to win a title without one was the 2004 Pistons (one reason I call Larry Brown GOAT basketball (not just NBA) coach)

You like doing things your way, good for you. But you're undercutting some good arguments with your dickish attitude.

 

[dtgold88]

So on point. Every team in the League would have wanted Luka. Ive listened to reporters plugged into different teams all day talk about what their squads would have given up for Luka and its sickening to hear as a Mavs fan

You listened to what guys who have no say guessed what teams would give up to be fair.

 

[flyerhawk]

Just figuring that out? This guy is the real deal internet asshole LOL. Makes dtgold look like a piker.

I haven't been posting as much here given the state of my team and how depressing this season has been. So I wasn't really aware of him until this discussion. But yeah, he's clearly one of those types that likes to dance around a topic and use tangential points to "win" the argument.

 

[tlance]

I think he will. The thing I love about this kid is his competitiveness. Go back and watch him talking shit to fans and players trying to guard him im the playoffs last season. Nico insulted the shot out of him on the way out. He has been playing hurt all season and still averages 28 a game lol. I know this, I'm taking the over on Luka points anytime the Lakers play the Mavs. He's going to light their ass up like a Christmas tree

Ironically…

Because of the way his Dallas tenure ended combined with him partnering with LeBron?

This may just light a fire under Luka’s ass to start really investing in his body and getting in shape.

 

[msgkings322]

I haven't been posting as much here given the state of my team and how depressing this season has been. So I wasn't really aware of him until this discussion. But yeah, he's clearly one of those types that likes to dance around a topic and use tangential points to "win" the argument.

He actually just showed up when the trade happened I think. I like him, new blood, knows his stuff, and plenty of assholery to get things going here. Our asshole quotient was low after funbags left (and came back, and then left again).

 

[dtgold88]

Just figuring that out? This guy is the real deal internet asshole LOL. Makes dtgold look like a piker.

Haha....in fact, while I believe he has one of the all time foolish points I've seen in SportsHoopla I happen to agree with a lot of his comments in this thread.

Because, you know, post over poster. Hopefully others will consider what he's saying and not just assume because they don't care for him his points must be off base.....and, yes, he could stand to listen more to what others have to say.

 

[msgkings322]

Ironically…

Because of the way his Dallas tenure ended combined with him partnering with LeBron?

This may just light a fire under Luka’s ass to start really investing in his body and getting in shape.

Yep, Dallas maybe ran out of things to try...a trade like this + LeBron might end up making Luka reach his potential (he's already great)

In a few years, I may look back and think I undervalued him, it's part of the fun of sports. For now Dallas took a big risk based on their own info, risks sometimes work and sometimes not.

 

[tlance]

No, I searched for players who match the provided criteria -- led team to 1 Finals before 25, average 30ppg in the playoffs, etcetera. Iverson is the closest match that I have yet found.



I excluded that Finals run. Please read better, or don't waste my time.



I am saying that Iverson was vastly better on that end.



Demonstrably not, as you just evidenced above.

Iverson was not a good defender by any modern metrics.

He received accolades back when writers only knew how to count stats like steals and blocks.

He gambled a lot, was out of position as a result and was small enough that most players could get their shots over him.

 

[flyerhawk]

You listened to what guys who have no say guessed what teams would give up to be fair.

What players do you think that their respective teams would not have been willing to trade for Luka?

Wemby, Giannis, and Jokic are probably the only 2 players I would say that the teams would say no immediately to. SGA and Tatum would probably be no as well after a little thought more because of the chemistry of their teams than a belief that they are better than Luka.

Who else after that?