Is Luka for AD the most shocking trade of all time

[UK Cowboy]

I get the point you were trying to make..I really do. But QB to OLB (and an OLB who has never even won a playoff game)?

Yeah it's maybe a little off but that's literally how warped I see the deal.
I think most here are in agreement the Mavs window is 3 years, and certainly not as a favorite, but as a defender. IMO, the Lakers ALWAYS attract FA's who just want to play in LA, and now having Luka there will make it even more appealing. They will win Titles, no question in my mind

 

[tc1]

Right. And chose Iverson over Lebron because it suited your argument better.

James is a much better player than Doncic. At least as good offensively, and miles better defensively. James had 2 MVPs by 25. Also, James went to the Finals at 22, not 25. Iverson is the closer comparison.

Oh I see you are one of those who thinks that being dickish is an effective debate tactic.

While you think resorting to childish name-calling helps your case, when really, it just reveals how far out over your skis you've found yourself.

 

[flyerhawk]

James is a much better player than Doncic. At least as good offensively, and miles better defensively. James had 2 MVPs by 25. Also, James went to the Finals at 22, not 25. Iverson is the closer comparison.

Lebron James is one of the 3 greatest players of all time. Arguing that there is a huge difference between getting to the finals at 22 and 25 is pretty LOL silly. Like I said, you want the comparison to be Iverson because of how his career turned out.

While you think resorting to childish name-calling helps your case, when really, it just reveals how far out over your skis you've found yourself.

Name calling? What name did I call you?

 

[UK Cowboy]

James is a much better player than Doncic. At least as good offensively, and miles better defensively. James had 2 MVPs by 25. Also, James went to the Finals at 22, not 25. Iverson is the closer comparison.



While you think resorting to childish name-calling helps your case, when really, it just reveals how far out over your skis you've found yourself.

I think the clear comparison statistically as well as style is Larry Bird. If Luka gets in shape and makes a defensive effort, he is right there with Larry Legend. That's a top 10 all time player which makes your ongoing Luka bash even more ridiculous

 

[tc1]

You are creating a bunch of straw men here.

Absolutely NO ONE is saying that having Doncic guarantees a franchise will be a contender for a decade.

Those exact words have been written in several articles on the topic.

But, in the NBA, if you don't have an MVP caliber player on your roster, your odds of winning an actual title are essentially zero.

There are only 8 MVPs in the league, and 3 of them have yet to win a title.

Who is the MVP-caliber player on Boston? Tatum? He's never sniffed one.

Luka Doncic is an MVP caliber player. AD was an MVP caliber player but not at this point in his career realistically. And certainly not in 3 years .

Teams don't trade MVP caliber players unless the player forces them to ala Kawhi in San Antonio.

If you are interpreting "MVP caliber" that loosely, then there are a ton of such players around the league, so yeah, you're likely to find one on each champion. Neither of those guys have come very close to winning an MVP award.

How many teams, right now, have zero "MVP caliber" players, in your estimation?

 

[tc1]

Lebron James is one of the 3 greatest players of all time.

And Doncic is not. Hence my point.

Arguing that there is a huge difference between getting to the finals at 22 and 25 is pretty LOL silly.

There is a huge difference between being sufficiently good to lead a team to the Finals at just 22, and doing so at 25.

Very few players have even been starters on Finals teams at 22, never mind leading those teams.

 

[tc1]

I think the clear comparison statistically as well as style is Larry Bird. If Luka gets in shape and makes a defensive effort, he is right there with Larry Legend. That's a top 10 all time player which makes your ongoing Luka bash even more ridiculous

Bird is not a top 10 player all-time, but that's a thread for another day.

I am not "bashing" Doncic -- I have said repeatedly that he is a very good player. What I am doing is explaining to people that many of the comments made about Doncic since the trade broke are not well-supported by facts. In particular, the idea that he automatically makes a team a serious contender. Before last April, uttering such a remark with a straight face would have been unthinkable.

For the record, a lot of nonsense has been written about Davis, too. Some people are claiming that he's a player who will bring Dallas to a championship-level because he's paired with Irving. Neither of those guys has ever won a damn thing when not carried around by LeBron James, so what makes anyone imagine they will be far better together is difficult to guess.

There seems to be a critical inability by many to process the scope of players' careers. People are expecting Doncic to always play like he did for the best two months of his life last spring. That's highly unlikely. People are expecting Davis to be Bubble Davis when that run constitutes only a blip on his lengthy career. Again, probably not going to happen.

 

[msgkings322]

I think the clear comparison statistically as well as style is Larry Bird. If Luka gets in shape and makes a defensive effort, he is right there with Larry Legend. That's a top 10 all time player which makes your ongoing Luka bash even more ridiculous

 

[UK Cowboy]

Not really. I mean, for all this bullcrap about Luka being out of shape, guess who led the NBA in minutes last season? And he averaged 34 a game doing it lol. Anthony Edwards was second, and when the Mavs played the Wolves in the WCF, Luka lit their ass up and Edwards looked like he was about to have a stroke lol. If he decides to follow LBJ's fitness routine I think there's probably an even higher level he will achieve, but it's not like he is Zion out there

 

[jontaejones]

Not really. I mean, for all this bullcrap about Luka being out of shape, guess who led the NBA in minutes last season? And he averaged 34 a game doing it lol. Anthony Edwards was second, and when the Mavs played the Wolves in the WCF, Luka lit their ass up and Edwards looked like he was about to have a stroke lol. If he decides to follow LBJ's fitness routine I think there's probably an even higher level he will achieve, but it's not like he is Zion out there

I think the conditioning thing is a cover the more I think about it.

It was a reason perhaps, but not THE reason.

 

[UK Cowboy]

I think the conditioning thing is a cover the more I think about it.

It was a reason perhaps, but not THE reason.

My personal opinion...Mark Cuban and his free spending, Luka loving ways isn't running the team anymore. The new ownership group wants to move the team to Vegas in a few years. They didn't want to pay Luka $350 Million this summer, and told Nico to get rid of him. They knew they could get more if they opened up the bidding league wide, but the knew Mavs fans would absolutely lose their shit if it were even discussed, so they told Nick to get what he could on the lowdown, and then they made up the bullshit about trading a guy who just led the league in minutes, scored 34 a game and carried you to the Finals being to fat to ever win anything. Horseshit

 

[flyerhawk]

Those exact words have been written in several articles on the topic.

Which articles?

There are only 8 MVPs in the league, and 3 of them have yet to win a title.

Who is the MVP-caliber player on Boston? Tatum? He's never sniffed one.

Tatum was 4th and 6th and 6th the past 3 seasons.

If you are interpreting "MVP caliber" that loosely, then there are a ton of such players around the league, so yeah, you're likely to find one on each champion. Neither of those guys have come very close to winning an MVP award.

Doncic was 3rd in voting last year.

How many teams, right now, have zero "MVP caliber" players, in your estimation?

Off the top of my head..

Brooklyn
Raptors
Knicks
Pacers
Pistons
Bulls
Heat
Magic
Hawks
Hornets
Wizards
Blazers
Jazz
Kings
Grizzlies
Rockets

Those are the pretty easy ones. That's half the league right out of the gate. After that you have the teams that either have a player that WAS an MVP level player but isn't anymore(Warriors, Mavs) or have a player who isn't quite MVP level yet but could become that(Twolves, Spurs)

So there are about 10 teams that can reach this threshold.

Is is possible that one of the above teams could win a title despite the lack of a marquee MVP level player? Sure. But it's pretty rare and requires a really stacked team.

 

[flyerhawk]

My personal opinion...Mark Cuban and his free spending, Luka loving ways isn't running the team anymore. The new ownership group wants to move the team to Vegas in a few years. They didn't want to pay Luka $350 Million this summer, and told Nico to get rid of him. They knew they could get more if they opened up the bidding league wide, but the knew Mavs fans would absolutely lose their shit if it were even discussed, so they told Nick to get what he could on the lowdown, and then they made up the bullshit about trading a guy who just led the league in minutes, scored 34 a game and carried you to the Finals being to fat to ever win anything. Horseshit

That makes a ton of sense.

I don't understand why the Mavs ownership would want to leave Dallas for Vegas. That is a big step down.

 

[msgkings322]

Not really. I mean, for all this bullcrap about Luka being out of shape, guess who led the NBA in minutes last season? And he averaged 34 a game doing it lol. Anthony Edwards was second, and when the Mavs played the Wolves in the WCF, Luka lit their ass up and Edwards looked like he was about to have a stroke lol. If he decides to follow LBJ's fitness routine I think there's probably an even higher level he will achieve, but it's not like he is Zion out there

Again, all I'm saying is "that's a big IF", same as when you said 'if' he does xyz he can be Larry Bird.

Luka's a terrific talent but has some inefficiencies. LA got the better part of the deal no doubt, but for the next 2-3 years Dallas did just fine and clearly did not want to pay the supermax to him and risk his conditioning being a problem. They went all in on the Kyrie/AD timeline and will tear it down after.

 

[msgkings322]

I think the conditioning thing is a cover the more I think about it.

It was a reason perhaps, but not THE reason.

Surely not the only reason but a big one. Conditioning, not wanting to pay the supermax, short term gain, etc.

 

[msgkings322]

My personal opinion...Mark Cuban and his free spending, Luka loving ways isn't running the team anymore. The new ownership group wants to move the team to Vegas in a few years. They didn't want to pay Luka $350 Million this summer, and told Nico to get rid of him. They knew they could get more if they opened up the bidding league wide, but the knew Mavs fans would absolutely lose their shit if it were even discussed, so they told Nick to get what he could on the lowdown, and then they made up the bullshit about trading a guy who just led the league in minutes, scored 34 a game and carried you to the Finals being to fat to ever win anything. Horseshit

Some good points here, although I don't see them moving the franchise. Vegas will be getting an expansion one along with Seattle.

 

[UK Cowboy]

That makes a ton of sense.

I don't understand why the Mavs ownership would want to leave Dallas for Vegas. That is a big step down.

The Adelson Family made their money in....the Casino business....

 

[msgkings322]

The Adelson Family made their money in....the Casino business....

And they are smart so they won't devalue the franchise moving to a lesser market.

 

[UK Cowboy]

And they are smart so they won't devalue the franchise moving to a lesser market.

Maybe. You might be right. But maybe not. Moving to Vegas wouldn't devalue the franchise for a family that owned the Sands. Moving means new Jersey money, a new stadium, new endorsement deals in a town they are totally plugged into. If you're right, Nico is an incompetent dimwit who didn't open up the Luka bidding to a league that would have had multiple teams give up half their players and draft picks out the ass for Luka instead of a 32 year old and a 2 year Title window. I don't think Nico is that stupid, so I think this is the only thing that makes sense. Saying a 25 year old who just led a team, that other than himself, had maybe the 7th or 8th most talent in the West all the way to the Finals will never be able to win you one because he drinks beer after the game? No way IMO

 

[UK Cowboy]

And they are smart so they won't devalue the franchise moving to a lesser market.

Also...smart doesn't trade Luka....