i'm all for trading wentz now

[_phiLLies_]

I support Foles.

I think Wentz is the better option long term for the team, and it is not even that close eaither. And the 'some of you seem to be doing the exact same thing with Wentz' trope (assuming you compare it to your adulation of Foles) trope you tout seems to be a straw man / figment of your imagination.

I have seen a lot of people here openly stating that there are issues with Wentz' play this year that need to be addressed, and harsh criticism during games. I do not see you do anything remotely similar to what Foles did; for you, Foles is basically three/three-and-a-half games last season (Rams, NFCCG, SB and 2nd half Atlanta), and three games this season (end of regular season) and the '27-2 stat'; you completely ignore how he played badly to outright stunk for much of the game against the Saints, the end of the last regular season, and even for parts of the 27-2 run under Kelly (with stats massively inflated by the Kelly system which had not been figured out yet).

By your logic, the Baltimore fans should have venerated Trent Dilfer after winning the Ravens their first SB.

I support Foles. I am also realistic about what he is: a high variance player within games and within a season, with extremely high highs, but also almost Sanchize level lows. And that, long term, is NOT a winning formula.

You seem to be less consistent in the application of standards (and taking context into account) than the majority of the Wentz over Foles individuals on this board.

see, that's the thing that's kind of bugging me here. i can't say it enough, it's nothing but a business decision. i don't know players personally, nor do i care what happens to them or what goes on with them. i have no praise for nick foles other than i think the combination of him and wentz' trade value is a better setup for the team moving forward than wentz alone. i'm only interested in the teams i cheer for winning now and making sure they continue that for the future.

i'm not looking to compare wentz to foles as in what they do on a game to game basis. because, it's not a 50/50 split between them. wentz has a shit ton of value attached to him in the form of a trade return. and that's the massive swing a lot of fans (well, philly fans) keep choosing to ignore.

foles isn't wentz. he's not supposed to be as good as wentz can be. that's why his mistakes aren't viewed upon as the same as wentz. and because of this, fans are always downgrading him to.. as you say, "sanchize level lows." which in reality, happens to everyone at times.

but again, no one seemingly wants to expand on wentz and the future of the team. it simply stops at picking wentz over foles. that's something i'd expect a 7 year old to stop at.

i'll ask the big question again. what happens if he gets hurt or underachieves next year? are we signing him to the max? foles is gone and isn't coming back. it's wentz or nothing at that point. all i see is comments that wentz will be healthy, he's better than foles, he's this and that. OK.. and if he's NOT?

 

[Roy Munson]

why, did i mention ramsey a whopping 2 or 3 times already? i said "something of that caliber." it could be all types of young players on the block with various picks. obviously doesn't matter now since wentz is the starter, but the point was we could have done something along those lines if we chose to go that route.

the titans game? you mean when that hot dog vendor was caught napping and screwing up his coverage on 4th and 15th? schwartz had NOTHING in the secondary for most of the year. even the front line was getting beat up. when jalen mills is your BEST available back, you have problems beyond repair. and then he got hurt as well. there is NO scheme that can save these nobodies. however, schwartz did an amazing job limiting the damage. 15 to the bears and 20 to the saints on the road in the postseason. what, are you going to pull a PHILLYGREEN now and claim someone could do better?

foles played like a chump for 3 quarters? could have fooled me. i mean, one possession basically in the 3rd quarter alone because of the saints 5 hour drive. so right away, that knocks you down from 3 to 2. and what happened in the 4th? a no call on the tate PI in saints territory and a game winning drive that ended because of the deflection. i don't think he was a "chump" in that quarter. he didn't do anything in the 2nd quarter. but, you know, i heard the saints are a pretty good team? i also remember foles getting us a quick 14 on long drives.

So your argument that Foles didn't get the ball enough over those 3 quarters goes to the scheme that Schwartz employed that allowed the Saints to hold the ball the whole game. You can't have it both ways. Foles did nothing for 3 quarters. The D couldn't get off the field. But sure, lets keep both because one year the stars aligned. Or we could put the best players on the field and anybody whose feelings might be hurt by the ego of the better player can go cry in the corner with the other bitches...

 

[old duke]

This thread has run its course.

 

[_phiLLies_]

So your argument that Foles didn't get the ball enough over those 3 quarters goes to the scheme that Schwartz employed that allowed the Saints to hold the ball the whole game. You can't have it both ways. Foles did nothing for 3 quarters. The D couldn't get off the field. But sure, lets keep both because one year the stars aligned. Or we could put the best players on the field and anybody whose feelings might be hurt by the ego of the better player can go cry in the corner with the other bitches...

foles and schwartz have been superb these last 2 seasons given the circumstances. that's not a game or two where the stars aligned.

 

[_phiLLies_]

This thread has run its course.

it has. but i'm still waiting on the "future plan" from all these people choosing wentz, dripping with arrogance and confidence. before we shut this down i'd like to know their thoughts on the future with carson, his deal, how we will balance the team, stay out of cap hell, etc.

 

[Roy Munson]

foles and schwartz have been superb these last 2 seasons given the circumstances. that's not a game or two where the stars aligned.

Foles was Superb in 2 games. Schwartz D in 1, maybe 2 of the Foles games.

D was non-existent in the Super Bowl, minus the sack fumble.

 

[Roy Munson]

it has. but i'm still waiting on the "future plan" from all these people choosing wentz, dripping with arrogance and confidence. before we shut this down i'd like to know their thoughts on the future with carson, his deal, how we will balance the team, stay out of cap hell, etc.

How much were you planning to pay Foles compared to Wentz?

 

[_phiLLies_]

How much were you planning to pay Foles compared to Wentz?

no one knows. but i envisioned the smart move being a 3-4 year deal while we try to find a pocket passer steal dropping in the draft. and with that guarantee of foles being a starter, maybe a significant discount could come with it. at the very least, some side action with various clauses. it doesn't take much to help the team. however, it's assumed wentz is going to max, regardless.

 

[Roy Munson]

no one knows. but i envisioned the smart move being a 3-4 year deal while we try to find a pocket passer steal dropping in the draft. and with that guarantee of foles being a starter, maybe a significant discount could come with it. at the very least, some side action with various clauses. it doesn't take much to help the team. however, it's assumed wentz is going to max, regardless.

He only comes close to max if 2019 looks like the first 13 games of 2017.

 

[PhillyGreen]

no, i'm not easily triggered. i have zero respect for supposed grownups who can't handle a difference of opinion and immediately have to resort to name calling because of it. once that happens, then you're going to hear about your own damn stupidity.

you have done next to nothing to support your schwartz comment. you've rambled on about nonsense like giving up big plays, or not stopping the other team when it's needed. and those things have easily been countered with the fact that the eagles defense suffered massive blows this year and were relying on guys that shouldn't even be in the league. those same guys who were constantly being attacked in coverage.

your argument is fucking garbage. again, 4th and 12th in points allowed these last two seasons. you're hung up on some nonsense about the front 4 being so dominate that you ignore the rest of the defense and think we should be tops in the league. the rest is mediocre at best. and with the injuries, they were even worse. yet, the defense did it's job in every game except the regular season saints matchup.

and once again, you offer no plan or solution to just firing schwartz. you haven't dropped one name to replace him. you haven't detailed the adjustment period and what setup would be best for the current players we have. what do you want? a 4-3, 3-4? you want more blitzing? more zone or man-man coverage? what's your view on how the young players will handle it? can they take on more responsibility? WHO IS REPLACING SCHWARTZ?

your shit smells. just like you will offer NOTHING when detailing wentz and the future of the team. just the boring stupidity of "wentz is better than foles."

know why? because you're a bitch fan. that's what bitch fans do. they say the most convenient thing at the time and never truly delve further into it. that's why after these hot dog vendors were blowing coverages on big plays, you just babble "fire schwartz!" because it's an obvious mark. just like "wentz is better than foles!" obvious marks.

when things backfire in the future, you'll already have the convenient excuses ready to go. because it's what bitch fans do.

Not easily triggered? Too funny

 

[DutchBird]

it has. but i'm still waiting on the "future plan" from all these people choosing wentz, dripping with arrogance and confidence. before we shut this down i'd like to know their thoughts on the future with carson, his deal, how we will balance the team, stay out of cap hell, etc.

The irony is rich, with you accusing others of arrogance and confidence.


The VAST majority of writers and experts agree that long term Wentz is most likely the better choice. Even those saying it should be Foles basically give two reasons:

1. Foles being let go not being received well inside in the locker room.
2. Foles being a very good fit in the system that Pederson is running tailored to him.

Not even these individuals argue that Foles is the actual more talented and better QB over Wentz.

Next season, Foles' cap hit is actually bigger than that of Wentz. And for a contract extension - especially assuming Foles does not fall apart like you argue, and the Eagles make the playoffs again - will command just as much money as Wentz would with his extension.

So overall, keeping Foles would carry a much greater risk of landing the Eagles in cap hell than keeping Wentz would.

As long as Carson learns to play a little more within the system, I would argue that the Eagles will be more dangerous with Carson than with Foles, and - arguably - would need less expensive players on offense to make it as potent as it needs to be. Money that then can be used on the O-line and the defense.

 

[_phiLLies_]

The irony is rich, with you accusing others of arrogance and confidence.


The VAST majority of writers and experts agree that long term Wentz is most likely the better choice. Even those saying it should be Foles basically give two reasons:

1. Foles being let go not being received well inside in the locker room.
2. Foles being a very good fit in the system that Pederson is running tailored to him.

Not even these individuals argue that Foles is the actual more talented and better QB over Wentz.

Next season, Foles' cap hit is actually bigger than that of Wentz. And for a contract extension - especially assuming Foles does not fall apart like you argue, and the Eagles make the playoffs again - will command just as much money as Wentz would with his extension.

So overall, keeping Foles would carry a much greater risk of landing the Eagles in cap hell than keeping Wentz would.

As long as Carson learns to play a little more within the system, I would argue that the Eagles will be more dangerous with Carson than with Foles, and - arguably - would need less expensive players on offense to make it as potent as it needs to be. Money that then can be used on the O-line and the defense.

i've stated numerous times this is my opinion, and i hope i'm wrong. i have provided many angles to that opinion of why i believe in it and why it's better for the team overall. i'm not sure how or why that labels me arrogant though. i'm interested in all opinions and have no desire to say "you're a fucking idiot" to anyone because they prefer wentz.

i don't think anybody, anywhere has argued that foles is more talented.. because he obviously isn't. wentz is the easy pick, easy answer to the question of leading the team into the future because he's younger and has that talent. but games and teams aren't built on easy questions.

as for money, it's like i was mentioning above. i think the smarter move is to keep foles for 3 or 4 years and set up the contract now. after this upcoming season, the team makes out. wentz is going to get max offers. obviously, moot point like everything else related to this now.

it appears you and many others are simply playing the hope game with wentz. and still, no one is truly answering the questions i've asked. what if carson looks like shit next year? what if he gets hurt again? are we just backing up the brinks truck for him and "hoping" some more? if he fails and can't deliever, this team is screwed for years. foles is the safer, more reliable play to me.

 

[UtahUte]

i thought this was insane after last year, but this isn't last year. if we're going to stick with pederson and this type of offensive scheme, then foles can clearly get the job done.

i love wentz and his potential, but the reality is he's already experienced several injuries and is going to command a huge contract. why pay that money when you can have a cheaper foles instead? when you can trade wentz and get some value back?

even though i dislike him, if we could get ramsey and a 1st from the jags for wentz and a future 3rd or something.. that would be a HUGE play for the eagles for these upcoming future years. it will never be a question of who is better individually, it's all about what benefits the team.

foles is only 4 years older than wentz. at this point i think we're better off getting picks/players for wentz and investing that saved money elsewhere. the difference betweeen foles and wentz will not be worth the investment in carson.

in the end it keeps coming back to the money. i don't want to be a 10-11 win team who keeps falling short because we can't bring in enough talent. you get ramsey and place him with jones, maddox and douglas. maybe draft a safety or another back early on, pick up a running back in the 3rd/4th and make foles the starter.. we're championship caliber for years.

if you have to start worrying about wentz' health and money instead? it reeks of big trouble down the line. it's already going to suck next season if foles is gone. every hit wentz takes, any time he gets up slow.. who's next in line? not some guy who will carry the team.

Whaaaat? A first round pick for Wentz. GTFO! He’s broken man.

 

[skinzfan]

Wentz doesn't look the same as he did a couple years ago. The ACL/LCL injury changed that. I wouldn't guarantee 80 million dollars to anyone with an injury background like his.

 

[Rey]

Wentz injury takes "at least" a year to fully recover from. He came back much too early and his "regular" mobility (which is a big part of his game) was not there. Yes, he was healthy enough to take the field, but when your style of play is hampered ... you are not the same player. Because he could not move around and escape how he is accustomed to he began to press and lost some confidence is what he was able to do naturally "prior" to the injury. Next season the mobility should be back to normal (no brace) and unlike this past season he will not have a protected training camp / pre-season ... so he will be ready come game 1.

 

[eaglesnut]

LOL..

set the shrine up for Foles.
set the shrine up for Foles.
set the shrine up for Foles.
set the shrine up for Foles.
set the shrine up for Foles.

what's in carson's locker, a "GET WELL SOON" card? to act like NO ONE would come to his defense (especially after the eagles said he was their guy) is just fucking absurd. every single player on the team could like him for all we know. it wouldn't change the possible attitude and flaws he may have shown along the way that have supposedly taken place. what about the players who didn't respond? do we just automatically assume they hate wentz or something?

as for an "obvious dislike for wentz." again, this is why i prefer not to waste my time amongst my 'own' fans. 95% are blind homers who live week to week and pop up off the couch after the game for their superior observations. most fans refuse to look at the big picture, which obviously involves a ridiculous amount of business decisions that need to be seperated from personal views and feelings. you, like many others, still cannot comprehend it's about a shit ton of things like value, picks, payroll, etc. has absolutely nothing to do with "liking" a player.

at the very least, the blind homerism goes right out the window when you talk with fans of other teams. and it's no surprise they are WAY more at ease with the eagles keeping foles and exploring a wentz trade.

Don't be such a stupid fuck that you forget that no one has been better in this offense than Wentz was.

Foles threw 7 picks in 5 games.

Get a grip.

He threw 2 picks in both playoff games completing only 60% of his passes.

You're clueless.

 

[eaglesnut]

Wentz injury takes "at least" a year to fully recover from. He came back much too early and his "regular" mobility (which is a big part of his game) was not there. Yes, he was healthy enough to take the field, but when your style of play is hampered ... you are not the same player. Because he could not move around and escape how he is accustomed to he began to press and lost some confidence is what he was able to do naturally "prior" to the injury. Next season the mobility should be back to normal (no brace) and unlike this past season he will not have a protected training camp / pre-season ... so he will be ready come game 1.

Even without being physically healthy he produced.

His per game numbers over 16 games would be 4471 yards, 69.2%, and 31 TDs with only 7 picks.

He increased his comp % a lot. Next year he can work on the sacks and fumbles. He is right on track to developing into a top 5 QB every year.

Already the bolded numbers would have been:
5th in comp%
6th in yards
9th in TDs

 

[eaglesnut]

Even without being physically healthy he produced.

His per game numbers over 16 games would be 4471 yards, 69.2%, and 31 TDs with only 7 picks.

He increased his comp % a lot. Next year he can work on the sacks and fumbles. He is right on track to developing into a top 5 QB every year.

Already the bolded numbers would have been:
5th in comp%
6th in yards
9th in TDs

Sorry, ten picks.

 

[PhillyGreen]

Even without being physically healthy he produced.

His per game numbers over 16 games would be 4471 yards, 69.2%, and 31 TDs with only 7 picks.

He increased his comp % a lot. Next year he can work on the sacks and fumbles. He is right on track to developing into a top 5 QB every year.

Already the bolded numbers would have been:
5th in comp%
6th in yards
9th in TDs

I posted something like this early on in this thread but someone.....who shall not be named because he is easily triggered ignored it. There have been a few people here that put facts like up but they were ignored because it made the original argument look dumb.

 

[Roy Munson]

I posted something like this early on in this thread but someone.....who shall not be named because he is easily triggered ignored it. There have been a few people here that put facts like up but they were ignored because it made the original argument look dumb.

but but but Foles is a legend.