If we are being honest about it, DeVonta Smith is going to establish himself as the best WR in the league within the next 3 years.

[returnofjakedog]

Thats the general hope when you draft a WR top, idk if he will be top 3 or not because I cant see the future, but if he does then cool.

He didn't say top 3. That would give him better odds though.

The statement is THE BEST in the league in 3 years. Numero uno.

It is possible, but the odds are against that lofty goal.

 

[jarntt]

There is no satirical basis to back that up. It's just a perception by you that doesn't have any factual backing.

Actually there is a shit ton of satirical basis to back that up on this board...

 

[RememberTheKoy]

Yes, that is why sports like boxing and MMA don't have weight classes: because smaller guys can directly compete against larger guys on an even scale with no increased odds of getting hurt.
<yes, sarcasm. no, I will not use green font for it>

I'm not trying to be an ass about it. It is common knowledge, common sense, and basic physics. Now, as I noted, individuals can overcome this but generally speaking it is true.

If a 170 lb WR gets lit up by a 250 lb LB, the WR is going to get the worst of it and have the greater chance of injury.

PS: you are correct in that there is no "satirical basis". I assume you mean scientific? Statisical?

No, that isn't why there are different weight classes in boxing. It's about fairness of competition. A welterweight boxer will not be able to compete with a heavy weight boxer. It has 0.0 to do with potential injury.


There is nothing scientific to back up your claim, no statistical backing. Just your ignorant belief.

Literally nothing at all showing that smaller players get injured more than larger players. None. Zilch. Nada. If that was the case than massive players like Gronk wouldn't have to deal with constant injury issues throughout their career.

 

[returnofjakedog]

No, that isn't why there are different weight classes in boxing. It's about fairness of competition. A welterweight boxer will not be able to compete with a heavy weight boxer. It has 0.0 to do with potential injury.


There is nothing scientific to back up your claim, no statistical backing. Just your ignorant belief.

Literally nothing at all showing that smaller players get injured more than larger players. None. Zilch. Nada. If that was the case than massive players like Gronk wouldn't have to deal with constant injury issues throughout their career.

You are just plain wrong about that.

All NFL players are going to be exposed to injury risk regardless of size. It is the nature of the sport.

If all other aspects are equal, smaller players will be at greater risk to injury when impacting against larger players. Of course, as I noted, individual attributes will have to be accounted for and different people will have different factors.

But there is tons of evidence out there. Look at the history of contact sports. Study physics (I know you already understand this).

You keep going on about "no evidence" of this, but what there is no evidence of is that a smaller player is NOT more prone to be injured when being impacted by a larger player. What evidence do you have to back up your theory?

It is simple: a 150 lb man jumps onto a 250 lb man. The force of impact against the larger man is significantly less than if the larger man jumps on the smaller man.

You are correct in that boxing or MMA divides into weight classes out of fairness and competition. But part of the fairness and competition is having weight classes so the smaller guys reduce the potential risk to be destroyed and injured.
There are exceptions. Individuals can overcome this. But there are 1000 who can't for every Royce Gracie out there.

It is simple physics.

 

[RememberTheKoy]

You are just plain wrong about that.

All NFL players are going to be exposed to injury risk regardless of size. It is the nature of the sport.

If all other aspects are equal, smaller players will be at greater risk to injury when impacting against larger players. Of course, as I noted, individual attributes will have to be accounted for and different people will have different factors.

But there is tons of evidence out there. Look at the history of contact sports. Study physics (I know you already understand this).

You keep going on about "no evidence" of this, but what there is no evidence of is that a smaller player is NOT more prone to be injured when being impacted by a larger player. What evidence do you have to back up your theory?

It is simple: a 150 lb man jumps onto a 250 lb man. The force of impact against the larger man is significantly less than if the larger man jumps on the smaller man.

You are correct in that boxing or MMA divides into weight classes out of fairness and competition. But part of the fairness and competition is having weight classes so the smaller guys reduce the potential risk to be destroyed and injured.
There are exceptions. Individuals can overcome this. But there are 1000 who can't for every Royce Gracie out there.

It is simple physics.

Okay, where is your backup for smaller players get injured more than larger players due to contact? Bring something, anything at all to actually back up this claim. I will be waiting. You can't because you have nothing. You just have this assumption drilled into your brain and you are being challenged on it to actually back it up but you can't.

 

[jarntt]

Okay, where is your backup for smaller players get injured more than larger players due to contact? Bring something, anything at all to actually back up this claim. I will be waiting. You can't because you have nothing. You just have this assumption drilled into your brain and you are being challenged on it to actually back it up but you can't.

 

[returnofjakedog]

Okay, where is your backup for smaller players get injured more than larger players due to contact? Bring something, anything at all to actually back up this claim. I will be waiting. You can't because you have nothing. You just have this assumption drilled into your brain and you are being challenged on it to actually back it up but you can't.

It's simple physics. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it.

The "funny" part is that you have nothing to back up your assumption. You fall into all of the issues you claim I have when approaching this but recognize none of them, and go out of your way to deny physics.

Maybe it isn't an issue for Smith. I specifically noted individuals can overcome such issues. But the odds are a 170 lb Smith is going to be at greater risk of impact injury from a hit from a 250 lb LB than a 235 lb Metcalf. Muscular structure, bone structure, etc will not stand up as well when it has less structural strength.
Note that I am not talking about tendon or ligament damage (though those are also at higher risk if the muscle or bone structure give way), but specifically impact damage.

Simple physics. I'm actually surprised that you can't acknowledge it.

 

[RememberTheKoy]

It's simple physics. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it.

The "funny" part is that you have nothing to back up your assumption. You fall into all of the issues you claim I have when approaching this but recognize none of them, and go out of your way to deny physics.

Maybe it isn't an issue for Smith. I specifically noted individuals can overcome such issues. But the odds are a 170 lb Smith is going to be at greater risk of impact injury from a hit from a 250 lb LB than a 235 lb Metcalf. Muscular structure, bone structure, etc will not stand up as well when it has less structural strength.
Note that I am not talking about tendon or ligament damage (though those are also at higher risk if the muscle or bone structure give way), but specifically impact damage.

Simple physics. I'm actually surprised that you can't acknowledge it.

If it's simple physics then it should be something you can easily proof with examples. There must be some easy to pull studies or even examples on of your own of smaller players getting injured at a higher rate due to contact than larger players in the NFL.

 

[returnofjakedog]

If it's simple physics then it should be something you can easily proof with examples. There must be some easy to pull studies or even examples on of your own of smaller players getting injured at a higher rate due to contact than larger players in the NFL.

So go pull out a bunch of studies to show otherwise then. It should be easy for you to prove according to your theories.

 

[RememberTheKoy]

So go pull out a bunch of studies to show otherwise then. It should be easy for you to prove according to your theories.

Why would there be studies on that?


But I can look and see smaller players in the NFL and see no correlation whatsoever to them getting injured more than bigger players. If anything, bigger players tend to get injured more often.

 

[returnofjakedog]

Why would there be studies on that?


But I can look and see smaller players in the NFL and see no correlation whatsoever to them getting injured more than bigger players. If anything, bigger players tend to get injured more often.

Again, I am talking specifically about impact injuries. If a larger and smaller object have an collision with all other factors being equal, then the laws of physics dictate that the smaller object is going to be more affected by it. Can you at least admit that much is true?

 

[RememberTheKoy]

Again, I am talking specifically about impact injuries. If a larger and smaller object have an collision with all other factors being equal, then the laws of physics dictate that the smaller object is going to be more affected by it. Can you at least admit that much is true?

You're wrong though. It's based on an assumption and not reality. You can't name this large amount of smaller players that are always dealing with contact injuries. Whereas larger players often are dealing with contact injuries.

Weight and Injuries

NFL football is a violent game, and traumatic injuries are unfortunate but unavoidable. But are bigger players more likely to be hurt than their smaller peers?

www.footballoutsiders.com

Conclusions​

This preliminary analysis found that heavier players have higher injury rates after controlling for position. Because of the residual confounding by role present at least among running backs, a good next step would be to further control for usage and see if the association of higher weight with higher injury rates remains. If it does, what should teams do with this information? Fielding a team of 195-pound offensive linemen is probably unwise, but focusing on players at the lower end of the weight range for their positions may offer teams some modest advantages when it comes to injury prevention. All else equal, if a team has a choice between a 180-pound defensive back and a 210-pounder, they may want to go for the lighter guy.

 

[returnofjakedog]

You're wrong though. It's based on an assumption and not reality. You can't name this large amount of smaller players that are always dealing with contact injuries. Whereas larger players often are dealing with contact injuries.

Weight and Injuries

NFL football is a violent game, and traumatic injuries are unfortunate but unavoidable. But are bigger players more likely to be hurt than their smaller peers?

www.footballoutsiders.com

Conclusions​

This preliminary analysis found that heavier players have higher injury rates after controlling for position. Because of the residual confounding by role present at least among running backs, a good next step would be to further control for usage and see if the association of higher weight with higher injury rates remains. If it does, what should teams do with this information? Fielding a team of 195-pound offensive linemen is probably unwise, but focusing on players at the lower end of the weight range for their positions may offer teams some modest advantages when it comes to injury prevention. All else equal, if a team has a choice between a 180-pound defensive back and a 210-pounder, they may want to go for the lighter guy.

All well and good but it doesn't specifically address my point on impact injuries, size differences, collisions. What it does address more than anything is that linemen get injured when they constantly battle other 300+ lb linemen all game. I am referring to a singular play where a small WR gets laid out by a LB on a crossing pattern. Then the size differential could come into play.
Nice find tthough.It is an interesting read

Regardless, best of luck to Smith and hopefully he can avoid injury. His previous injury history has been relatively minor but in key areas (hand, shoulder, hip, and knee). Myself and many others remain somewhat cautious of his ability to not be overpowered, and stay injury free at the NFL level.

 

[RememberTheKoy]

All well and good but it doesn't specifically address my point on impact injuries, size differences, collisions. What it does address more than anything is that linemen get injured when they constantly battle other 300+ lb linemen all game. I am referring to a singular play where a small WR gets laid out by a LB on a crossing pattern. Then the size differential could come into play.
Nice find tthough.It is an interesting read

Regardless, best of luck to Smith and hopefully he can avoid injury. His previous injury history has been relatively minor but in key areas (hand, shoulder, hip, and knee). Myself and many others remain somewhat cautious of his ability to not be overpowered, and stay injury free at the NFL level.

For how prevalent you think this is for smaller wide receivers getting inured at a high rate due to contact you sure can't bring up many (any!) examples. Fact is a larger wide receiver presents himself as a larger easier target to go full steam ahead into and hit so those larger receivers are going to be more prone to injury. That's why Gronk is always getting banged up. He's a big monster of a player muscle machine. But he takes a beating. Meanwhile you have a smaller slimmer WR like Marvin Harrison who was a technician of a route runner that rarely got injured and that's who Devonta compares to due to his route running and how he plays the position.

 

[tlance]

For how prevalent you think this is for smaller wide receivers getting inured at a high rate due to contact you sure can't bring up many (any!) examples. Fact is a larger wide receiver presents himself as a larger easier target to go full steam ahead into and hit so those larger receivers are going to be more prone to injury. That's why Gronk is always getting banged up. He's a big monster of a player muscle machine. But he takes a beating. Meanwhile you have a smaller slimmer WR like Marvin Harrison who was a technician of a route runner that rarely got injured and that's who Devonta compares to due to his route running and how he plays the position.

The smaller players in the NFL are also elite athletes. They wouldn’t be there if they weren’t extremely quick and agile.

Smaller players on average are more likely to avoid those big collisions in space.

I don’t remember Barry Sanders ever taking on a square hit.

Smith might not be one of those guys. He might get injured. But there is also a fairly solid chance that he is able to avoid most of those big hits if he is in fact the player that many believe him to be.

 

[returnofjakedog]

The smaller players in the NFL are also elite athletes. They wouldn’t be there if they weren’t extremely quick and agile.

Smaller players on average are more likely to avoid those big collisions in space.

I don’t remember Barry Sanders ever taking on a square hit.

Smith might not be one of those guys. He might get injured. But there is also a fairly solid chance that he is able to avoid most of those big hits if he is in fact the player that many believe him to be.

All true and something that I never denied. But avoiding a big hit while trying to make a extension catch isn't always possible.

Again, I don't want him to get injured. He seems like a good person. Best of luck to him. I, and others, feel his size is a possible issue at the NFL level. That is all.

 

[returnofjakedog]

For how prevalent you think this is for smaller wide receivers getting inured at a high rate due to contact you sure can't bring up many (any!) examples. Fact is a larger wide receiver presents himself as a larger easier target to go full steam ahead into and hit so those larger receivers are going to be more prone to injury. That's why Gronk is always getting banged up. He's a big monster of a player muscle machine. But he takes a beating. Meanwhile you have a smaller slimmer WR like Marvin Harrison who was a technician of a route runner that rarely got injured and that's who Devonta compares to due to his route running and how he plays the position.

Here is a complete breakdown of the results of the same study you used:

Understanding Injuries in the NFL Part 1

A look at what really correlates with injuries in the NFL using analysis from Football Outsiders

www.hogshaven.com

Understanding Injuries in the NFL Part 2

A look at what really correlates with injuries in the NFL using analysis from Football Outsiders

www.hogshaven.com

Understanding Injuries in the NFL Part 3

A look at what really correlates with injuries in the NFL using analysis from Football Outsiders

www.google.com

Remember, the same study you quoted, and here are relevant results.

• “Mobile” positions (LB, DB, WR, RB) are more likely to be involved in big collisions with high momentum, and hence more likely to be injured. That is less true for QB, OL, and DL, and so they are less likely to be injured. (Note:WRs have about a 13% increased injury compared to the overall)
• WR shows a strong correlation between increased size and increased rate of injury, although the very smallest weight category of WR also had an increased rate of injury. (That is the catagory Smith falls in)

So it appears the results showing the size correlation to injury in Smith's catagory do exist afterall.

 

[RememberTheKoy]

Here is a complete breakdown of the results of the same study you used:

Understanding Injuries in the NFL Part 1

A look at what really correlates with injuries in the NFL using analysis from Football Outsiders

www.hogshaven.com

Understanding Injuries in the NFL Part 2

A look at what really correlates with injuries in the NFL using analysis from Football Outsiders

www.hogshaven.com

Understanding Injuries in the NFL Part 3

A look at what really correlates with injuries in the NFL using analysis from Football Outsiders

www.google.com

Remember, the same study you quoted, and here are relevant results.

• “Mobile” positions (LB, DB, WR, RB) are more likely to be involved in big collisions with high momentum, and hence more likely to be injured. That is less true for QB, OL, and DL, and so they are less likely to be injured. (Note:WRs have about a 13% increased injury compared to the overall)
• WR shows a strong correlation between increased size and increased rate of injury, although the very smallest weight category of WR also had an increased rate of injury. (That is the catagory Smith falls in)

So it appears the results showing the size correlation to injury in Smith's catagory do exist afterall.

Doesn't specify the type of injury. I'd imagine most of the injuries for the lowest weight group are related to hamstring injuries and other non-contact related injuries since most of the receivers int aht weight class tend to be sprinting speedsters that are more prone to those type of non-contact related injuries.

 

[Cincyfan78]

One thing to point out - not all injuries are the same. The graph above shows injuries by group, but does not dive into the specifics that make it applicable to this argument.

It would make sense that heavier WR's would have more muscle/ACL type injuries as they would, in theory, be putting more torque on those areas when compared to smaller/lighter WR's.

Conversely, it would be not unexpected if smaller WR ended up with more injuries such as chest contusions or other impact related injuries when compared to bigger WR.

While the injury graph shows some good info - it is vastly incomplete as it really doesn't break down the type of injury or body type of the WR. It would be very interesting to see type of injury broken down by group and then body type to see if you can really make a definitive conclusion one way, or another.

 

[RememberTheKoy]

One thing to point out - not all injuries are the same. The graph above shows injuries by group, but does not dive into the specifics that make it applicable to this argument.

It would make sense that heavier WR's would have more muscle/ACL type injuries as they would, in theory, be putting more torque on those areas when compared to smaller/lighter WR's.

Conversely, it would be not unexpected if smaller WR ended up with more injuries such as chest contusions or other impact related injuries when compared to bigger WR.

While the injury graph shows some good info - it is vastly incomplete as it really doesn't break down the type of injury or body type of the WR. It would be very interesting to see type of injury broken down by group and then body type to see if you can really make a definitive conclusion one way, or another.

Who are these smaller WRs getting chest contusion injuries? Why can't anyone bring any examples to the table with apparently how prevalent it is?


If we are being real, based on the physical nature that Jamar Chase plays the position and how he will try to take on contact to power through a player I see him as a far higher risk for a physical contact injury than Devonta Smith. Likewise with Jaylen Waddle and how a lot of his game is based on his all world speed I see him as a higher risk for injury with his hamstring and such than Devonta Smith at the next level.

Yet of the 3 people only talk of injury risk for Smith despite injuries not being any issue for him in college.