If 'Bronbron had played in the 80's...

[lakersrule]

There are quite a few players from the 70's and 80's that wouldn't be good in this era of basketball. The athletic difference is just too much.

It isn't as acute as it is in football (there aren't a lot of great NFL football players from 40 years ago that could play well in this era) but it is still pretty relevant in NBA discussions.

But players from this era going back would have a much easier transition and would often be a lot better because of the athletic advantage they would have over players from past era. Lebron is freaky athletic for a man his size in today's era. If he had played in the iso-80's, there would have been no way to guard him as no one from that era had the combo of strength and speed to stick with him.

I did say the elites. Wilt would dominate now just like he did in the 60s. I think Dr. J would due just fine. There were great athletes that played in those past eras.

Athletes are more "athletic" these days not due to any evolution of the human body, but due to the advancement of training techniques, medicine, and knowledge. Those "unathletic" players from the 70's and 80's would be a lot more "athletic" in current times.

 

[GNG]

On the flip side Larry Brown has stated that MJ would average 50 with these patty cake rules today. Brown has stated that the college game is tougher today, physically speaking...

MJ invented the art of traveling with the ball which led to today's product.

 

[Mecca of the “B” Team]

MJ invented the art of traveling with the ball which led to today's product.

Hey, the Mavs are gonna let Monta and Rondo walk and steal away Deandre Jordan.

Sucks.

 

[GNG]

Hey, the Mavs are gonna let Monta and Rondo walk and steal away Deandre Jordan.

Sucks.

Rondo made a bad impression on Mavs fans so I can see him leaving.

 

[ducky]

Rondo made a bad impression on Mavs fans so I can see him leaving.

He did so poorly in Dallas that he is going to have a tough time finding a team willing to take him.

 

[GNG]

He did so poorly in Dallas that he is going to have a tough time finding a team willing to take him.

The Timberwolves are interested....

 

[ducky]

The Timberwolves are interested....

We already have a PG who can't shoot!

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

I dont need to look, I saw them play. And they were great defenders and tough, but physical strength, Lebron is overpowering them and if he doesnt he gets to the line. Go ahead hack him, he will get back up. He takes shots all game, every game, he is used to it. He has taken many to the nose (hence why he wore a mask back in the day).
I think you (older generation guys) just think Lebron is going to lay down and take it just bc these guys were physical and deserve respect bc they are great defenders.
The fact is no one in the league back then could move like Lebron and still finish while getting hit. Plus he is bigger than Rodman and Laimbeer lol

btw...Laimbeer called Lebron the greatest for a reason

Because he hates Jordan. And nobody could move like Lebron and still finish? Laughable, just laughable...

Oh and I love how you think Laimbeers word is gospel, but anyone (Phil, Larry Brown, et.al.) that says Jordan is better than LBJ doesn't know shit. Again, just laughable...

 

[Shanemansj13]

Because he hates Jordan. And nobody could move like Lebron and still finish? Laughable, just laughable...

Oh and I love how you think Laimbeers word is gospel, but anyone (Phil, Larry Brown, et.al.) that says Jordan is better than LBJ doesn't know shit. Again, just laughable...

Mkay...I never said Lebron was better than MJ lol. I just said he could compete back in the day at a high level. You really do have a hatred for Lebron...it's ok

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Mkay...I never said Lebron was better than MJ lol. I just said he could compete back in the day at a high level. You really do have a hatred for Lebron...it's ok

Sorry, so many LBJ fan bois in this thread I lost track.

But yeah, I find Lebron unlikable...

 

[SJ76]

Dominique maybe but the X man?

 

[SJ76]

MJ invented the art of traveling with the ball which led to today's product.

You mean Flying

 

[purguy12]

I'm not upset lol. I am actually looking at facts you are all opinion-based with no real argument, like always. Carry on.

I give Facts all the time u are the one that is opinion-based. I throw numbers at u all the time. LOL This is great stuff. Yes I have my opinions but we start talking numbers I back it up. In this argument it is opinion based. Nothing else. I go back what I see. I have watched the 90's, and early 2000's. Its a way different game.

 

[wildturkey]

You discount what experts say about MJ (even one that has worked with Mike, Kobe AND Lebron) and you say LBJs scoring would go UP in an era when the defenses were more physical and had fewer rules hamstringing them.

Sounds legit...

Can you not look at evidence and data for yourself and draw your own conclusions or do you just repeat what an expert says as gospel like they can never be wrong. Heck, Magic Johnson is the 2nd best player of all time but arguably the worst analyst ever. Half the time what he said didn't make sense to what was actually happening and the other half was just canned cliches. Just last month Phil Jackson made an ass of himself discrediting teams that shoot 3s despite the fact that 6 of the 8 teams in the semi-finals all heavily used 3 pointers and all 4 conference final teams were amongst lead leaders. But experts are always right. Let's not question any of their reasoning or think objectively about anything. Like I said, you already made your mind up before looking at it. There's no point for you to continue.

My response was not directed at the discussion about Jordan getting 50pts a game...although no one would actually seriously think he would avg that...but merely an exaggerated suggestion to emphasis there point about handchecking.

What irritates me is the misconception that the elimination of illegal defense negates the curtailing of handchecking or that the defense of today is harder because of this reason even without hand checking.

Getting rid of handchecking is such a benefit for perimeter players and Lebron.

If you are a guard, and you are fast....there is nothing a perimeter defender can do to give you any resistance at all. Now it requires a whole team to stop a guard. And guess what that does? it opens up the court for your shooters who stand in the 3pt line waiting for a kick out. So you can imagine the margin of error for the team is very little..as any miscommunication or wrong guesses (i.e. weak side defender thinks theres a kickout and does not help)....the offensive guard has an easy drive to the basket.

With handcheck...you can have defenders, who maybe slow...but still able to provide some resistance of guard penetration till help arrives. You know how tiring that becomes for guards who continually penetrate but have the defenders hands in there hips providing some resistance? That's why a lot of players in those days had there backs to the basket.

Also don't have the misconception that prior to the elimination of the illegal defense, everyone stuck to there man like glue. You were allowed to sag of your man. The only difference was that you cannot double team a player unless he had the ball. Once a player has the ball, you could ALWAYS double/triple team him.

Tell me why would Lebron improve offensively? You say the lane wasn't clogged then? you have it all wrong...80's and 90's were all played in the post and ruled by the big men.

Defensively I could see Lebron dominate tho.

You're right about how a handcheck works. But I never said that negating the illegal defense made it harder today. I don't think anyone did so I'm not sure where you got that. What I said was people don't take into account these changes as well. They assume that no handchecking means defense today is just the same as it was but without physicality so someone like Jordan could average 50 (like HC2G up there thinks he could). But it doesn't work that way. Players can free roam and help off other guys. That clogs up the the paint area making it harder to score there. That's "harder to score there" as in those kinds of shots, not harder to score period. Yes, no handcheck frees up the player to move more easily around the perimeter but its not as if he has little to no resistance.

Players under the old rules could sag off their man, but the sag was no more than a couple of feet. If you posted up a player and all 4 guys moved to the other side of the court, their defenders had to go with them. That's a lot of real estate for the guy with the ball to work with. He also had no 5 second back to the basket rule so he could take his time. For guards (like Jordan), their quick step could get them to the paint. A team would move its players around the court to give the guard the space to work with. If the other players get their positions right, he wouldn't meet resistance until he got to the rim, when the post player's defensive man could sag off and challenge the shot. But if he never got to the paint, all the guard had to do was beat his man off the dribble and feast on the midrange shot.

As for why Lebron would improve, go back and read my post from earlier. I laid it out pretty well. But you have it wrong on the part I bolded. If the lane was clogged because everyone played in the post like you said, how then, did Jordan ever score as much as he did and become the GOAT? James has that skillset + like 50 extra pounds of muscle. There's no reason to think that would harm him.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Can you not look at evidence and data for yourself and draw your own conclusions or do you just repeat what an expert says as gospel like they can never be wrong. Heck, Magic Johnson is the 2nd best player of all time but arguably the worst analyst ever. Half the time what he said didn't make sense to what was actually happening and the other half was just canned cliches. Just last month Phil Jackson made an ass of himself discrediting teams that shoot 3s despite the fact that 6 of the 8 teams in the semi-finals all heavily used 3 pointers and all 4 conference final teams were amongst lead leaders. But experts are always right. Let's not question any of their reasoning or think objectively about anything. Like I said, you already made your mind up before looking at it. There's no point for you to continue.



You're right about how a handcheck works. But I never said that negating the illegal defense made it harder today. I don't think anyone did so I'm not sure where you got that. What I said was people don't take into account these changes as well. They assume that no handchecking means defense today is just the same as it was but without physicality so someone like Jordan could average 50 (like HC2G up there thinks he could). But it doesn't work that way. Players can free roam and help off other guys. That clogs up the the paint area making it harder to score there. That's "harder to score there" as in those kinds of shots, not harder to score period. Yes, no handcheck frees up the player to move more easily around the perimeter but its not as if he has little to no resistance.

Players under the old rules could sag off their man, but the sag was no more than a couple of feet. If you posted up a player and all 4 guys moved to the other side of the court, their defenders had to go with them. That's a lot of real estate for the guy with the ball to work with. He also had no 5 second back to the basket rule so he could take his time. For guards (like Jordan), their quick step could get them to the paint. A team would move its players around the court to give the guard the space to work with. If the other players get their positions right, he wouldn't meet resistance until he got to the rim, when the post player's defensive man could sag off and challenge the shot. But if he never got to the paint, all the guard had to do was beat his man off the dribble and feast on the midrange shot.

As for why Lebron would improve, go back and read my post from earlier. I laid it out pretty well. But you have it wrong on the part I bolded. If the lane was clogged because everyone played in the post like you said, how then, did Jordan ever score as much as he did and become the GOAT? James has that skillset + like 50 extra pounds of muscle. There's no reason to think that would harm him.

So, defenses were easier to play against in the 90s? Is that what you are saying? I find it funny that considering that the rules have been changed to help offense, you think LBJ would be better under the old rules and that under the current rules that encourage offense, Jordan wouldn't become more dominant.

What data and evidence should you like to look at? Set the discussion.

But hey, you must be right because you know more than experts. You should have a job as a GM for an NBA team any minute now...

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Here, I will give you a timeline of the various rule changes since Jordan's 1998 retirement. Over time, the game was slowly, but rapidly becoming more of a perimeter player's game.

1999-00

• In the backcourt, there is no contact with hands and forearms by defenders. In the frontcourt, there is no contact with hands and forearms by defenders except below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may only use his forearm. In the post, neither the offensive player nor the defender is allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legally obtained a position. Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player. Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding "chucking" or "wrapping up" is prohibited.

2000-01

• No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only
• Neither the offensive player nor the defender will be allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legally obtained a position.
• Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player.
• Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding "chucking" or "wrapping up" is prohibited.

(I guess the repeat is to further endorse and remind everyone).

2001-02

• A new defensive three-second rule will prohibit a defensive player from remaining in the lane for more than three consecutive seconds without closely guarding an offensive player.

2004-05

• New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game.

2006-07

• On a clear-path-to-the-basket foul, the team that is fouled is awarded two free throw attempt and the ball on the sideline.

As you can see, as time went on, the NBA was deteriorating the impact of the post players in favor of the perimeter. Ironically, the rules began to shift during the Shaq/Duncan reign (last era of dominant big men). No longer could a player grab, hold, wrap around or check with the hand in the face. Forearms were prohibited. The 2004-2005 season is where things really came to a head, when they clearly wanted to "curtail hand-checking" to call defensive three seconds in favor of this one key purpose "to open up the game". Even though this is pretty explanatory, allow me to break it down even more: When they say to open up the game, it is to give perimeter players more space to score. It is no coincidence that Steve Nash went from a middle of the pack Point Guard, to suddenly a 2-time MVP, while shooting 50% from the field.

 

[wildturkey]

So, defenses were easier to play against in the 90s? Is that what you are saying? I find it funny that considering that the rules have been changed to help offense, you think LBJ would be better under the old rules and that under the current rules that encourage offense, Jordan wouldn't become more dominant.

What data and evidence should you like to look at? Set the discussion.

But hey, you must be right because you know more than experts. You should have a job as a GM for an NBA team any minute now...

Are you even reading anything at all that's been written? Where has it been said that defense was easier? I said there are trade offs to both. You just assume that because one was more physical, it was superior. That's not the case.

The bold part really stands out you aren't even comprehending this discussion. Never did I say the new rules wouldn't make Jordan more dominant. In fact, I said his assist would go up and his scoring would go up. Last I checked that would qualify as him being more dominate. Go reread it. It's all there. He'd do 35 to 38 a game. He averaged in the 30s for his career under the old rules. 5 to 8 pts is significant improvement. What I said was he couldn't do 50. Because 50 a game fucking HARD.

Those rule changes came about because in the 90s, the game became TOO physical. Pace of play tanked. The game ground to a halt. It was ugly as hell to watch. In the 80s, you could still handcheck but there was much more freedom of movement. Possessions in a game was in the 100s. Teams could move and it was pretty to watch. But in the 90s, especially mid to late, that changed. There was still handchecks but more teams started constantly bumping perimeter players to muck it up. Pace tanked to the low 90s. The best way to play on the whole was to just dump it down in the post, burn clock, and grind away. They changed the defensive rules in the early 00s to try to get away from post play figuring it would put the ball on the perimeter and thus speed the game up. It didn't have a big enough effect because you still had some form of handchecks on perimeter players. So they finally took that away and the game opened up more. Pace began going up in the mid to late 00s. But it still isn't close to what it was in the 80s. It's somewhere in the mid 90s possessions a game right now. You'd think with less physicality that pace should be up in the 100s, right? But its not. And that's because the new zone rules still allow some resistance. Because of that, its fair to assume Jordan just couldn't run wild to 50 PPG.

And I already told you why James' skills would be fine under the old rules. Lay out what you specific skill of his would prevent him from doing so?

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Are you even reading anything at all that's been written? Where has it been said that defense was easier? I said there are trade offs to both. You just assume that because one was more physical, it was superior. That's not the case.

The bold part really stands out you aren't even comprehending this discussion. Never did I say the new rules wouldn't make Jordan more dominant. In fact, I said his assist would go up and his scoring would go up. Last I checked that would qualify as him being more dominate. Go reread it. It's all there. He'd do 35 to 38 a game. He averaged in the 30s for his career under the old rules. 5 to 8 pts is significant improvement. What I said was he couldn't do 50. Because 50 a game fucking HARD.

Those rule changes came about because in the 90s, the game became TOO physical. Pace of play tanked. The game ground to a halt. It was ugly as hell to watch. In the 80s, you could still handcheck but there was much more freedom of movement. Possessions in a game was in the 100s. Teams could move and it was pretty to watch. But in the 90s, especially mid to late, that changed. There was still handchecks but more teams started constantly bumping perimeter players to muck it up. Pace tanked to the low 90s. The best way to play on the whole was to just dump it down in the post, burn clock, and grind away. They changed the defensive rules in the early 00s to try to get away from post play figuring it would put the ball on the perimeter and thus speed the game up. It didn't have a big enough effect because you still had some form of handchecks on perimeter players. So they finally took that away and the game opened up more. Pace began going up in the mid to late 00s. But it still isn't close to what it was in the 80s. It's somewhere in the mid 90s possessions a game right now. You'd think with less physicality that pace should be up in the 100s, right? But its not. And that's because the new zone rules still allow some resistance. Because of that, its fair to assume Jordan just couldn't run wild to 50 PPG.

And I already told you why James' skills would be fine under the old rules. Lay out what you specific skill of his would prevent him from doing so?

Possessions today are nearly exactly the same as the early 90s, during Jordan's prime was. (1993-94 was 95, 2014-15 was 94) Now add the rules that encourage perimeter play.

Do you read anything I post at all?
Never mind. This is pointless. You have your opinion. I'll go with people that, you know, have been doing the basketball thing their entire lives, and for a career and at the highest level...

 

[Ojb81]

Possessions today are nearly exactly the same as the early 90s, during Jordan's prime. Now add the rules that encourage perimeter play. Do you read anything I post at all?
Never mind. This is pointless. You have your opinion. I'll go with people that, you know, have been doing the basketball thing their entire lives, and for a career and at the highest level...

Translation: I really dont have a legitimate counter to your valid points, so I'll condescend towards you and give you the "defer to the experts" bs line

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Translation: I really dont have a legitimate counter to your valid points, so I'll condescend towards you and give you the "defer to the experts" bs line

Translate? From what I can tell you can barely grasp the language. It is all academic nimrod. Or don't you get it.

But wait, maybe you are right and I should change my opinion based on random message board guy and not listen to people that are experts. Because you, you know, experts are stupid...