If 'Bronbron had played in the 80's...

[logic]

Better question: If LeBron played in the '80s would he have been in the dunk contest with all the other superstars, or would he still duck it?
A prime Jordan, 'Nique, LeBron dunk contest would be fun to watch.

 

[gordontrue]

LOL!!

Why is it that some people give zero credit to the players of yesterday? The NBA of today is an absolute joke in comparision in terms of competition & rules. Heck the Milwaukee Bucks of the 80's with guys like Lanier, Moncrief, Pressey & Lucas would destroy the league today. Back then they never made the NBA finals.

Like you are doing to today's players?

I haven't heard anyone "give zero credit" to the players of yesterday.

All of the extreme statements in this thread are going the other way.

 

[logic]

Better question: If LeBron played in the '80s would he have been in the dunk contest with all the other superstars, or would he still duck it?
A prime Jordan, 'Nique, LeBron dunk contest would be fun to watch.

And would LeBron have been shattering backboards before the reengineering?

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

Like you are doing to today's players?

I haven't heard anyone "give zero credit" to the players of yesterday.

All of the extreme statements in this thread are going the other way.

The one thing I know regarding Lebron & if he played in the 80's is he never would have won a NBA title with Cleveland. The Lakers, Celtics, Pistons & Sixers (with 1 title) Dominated the 80's. They had great teams. I'm not saying he's a great player. I compared him to one of the greatest players of all time. A player I consider the best all around player to ever play the game in Magic Johnson.

When multiple teams with losing records make the playoffs in the Eastern Conference the level of play in the league is in bad shape. It's not going to get any better after this years draft either considering the fact the 1st 2 picks in the draft belong to Western Conference teams.

 

[TxHeat]

He wouldn't have been in a McD's commercial.

 

[Ojb81]

LOL!!

Why is it that some people give zero credit to the players of yesterday? The NBA of today is an absolute joke in comparision in terms of competition & rules. Heck the Milwaukee Bucks of the 80's with guys like Lanier, Moncrief, Pressey & Lucas would destroy the league today. Back then they never made the NBA finals.

Who's not giving credit to those players from 30 yrs ago?? Certainly not me. I just find it absurd that people think a guy like Lebron would be a "fringe star" if he played back then. Just a ridiculous take, in my opinion

 

[Wazmankg]

The one thing I know regarding Lebron & if he played in the 80's is he never would have won a NBA title with Cleveland. The Lakers, Celtics, Pistons & Sixers (with 1 title) Dominated the 80's. They had great teams. I'm not saying he's a great player. I compared him to one of the greatest players of all time. A player I consider the best all around player to ever play the game in Magic Johnson.

When multiple teams with losing records make the playoffs in the Eastern Conference the level of play in the league is in bad shape. It's not going to get any better after this years draft either considering the fact the 1st 2 picks in the draft belong to Western Conference teams.

Yeah, there's no way either of these teams could have hung with those 4. Lebron himself would have been great though... as good as he is now. As (I forget who) posted, the fundamentals and all around basketball skill of those teams would have trumped the better pure athleticism of today's players. I think the 80s is as far back as you can go and say that, though. Today's players are just too much more physically gifted than the real old timers before that.

 

[wildturkey]

If LBJ can increase his scoring, according to you, 10 points a game playing in the 80s, then Jordan could increase his by 20 playing in this current watered down, patty cake rules league.

See, I can do it to...

You're not actually thinking about how the rules affect the game. All you're doing is saying Jordan > Lebron and puffing out your chest with some nostalgic 80s love sprinkled over top of a heavy dosage of believing that the only possible good defense is the kind that knocks a guy on his ass. You've already made up your mind before ever examining the mitigating factors of it all.

Phil Jackson says 45, Alonzo Morning says almost 50.


Here is Brooklyn Nets Star Joe Johnson on how the rule changes helped him, from an interview in the summer of 2010: "It benefits me," said Johnson, who was one of three Hawks players that season who averaged 20 or more ppg that season. (Mike Bibby & Jamal Crawford were the other two) Johnson continues: "It definitely changes the game because it gives every guy that extra step. If we could hand check now, the game would be totally different. If they couldn't hand check back in the day, there are some guys that would have been even better than they were. It would have been nuts for some of the big-time scorers and perimeter players from the 1980's and 1990's. Can you imagine what Michael Jordan would have done in a league where you couldn't hand check."

Tim Grover, (who has trained Jordan, LeBron, and Kobe) was asked who would win a 1-on-1 battle with Jordan vs. either Kobe or LeBron:

Grover: "Oh, Michael. No question. From a physical and mental standpoint, he's the best I've ever seen. If he were playing now, with the way the refs call everything, and with all the padding these guys wear, he'd average 40 or 50 a night if he wanted."

See, I isn't just me. The SMEs think so too.

But you, random message board guy, say otherwise so, clearly, you must be the one that is correct...

Read those quotes again. Follow their logic. They're all talking about what Jordan could do with no handchecks. What they aren't factoring in is how NBA defenses now allow you to pack the paint, throw help defenses out there, etc. Joe Johnson is right. No hand checking gives you an extra step because a guy isn't resting his arm on you. What he left out is there's multiple guys there in the paint who can play off their man to meet you. This factoid constantly gets lost in in Era comparison. Guys from the past; your Browns, Jacksons, Shaqs, Barkleys, etc all do it. Some of that is just typical generational pride, the "back in my day, it was the best" thing. And some of it is just being flat wrong about how thinks work. Like how Shaq constantly says a good big man should be able to average 28pts and 15rebs despite the fact the defensive rules make it so that even the best of the best big men will have a hard time doing that. The game doesn't work that way. Both sets of rules have trade offs. It's not like no handchecking means free runs to the rim for everyone. 50 a game would really freaking hard to do, even for Jordan. Yeah, if it was 80s rules with no handchecking, sure. He absolutely could because there's no defensive resistance once he breaks down his one on one defender because rules prevent people from leaving their man to protect an area. It'd be a layup drill. But the new rules do allow for that and that feature makes up for the handchecks. You have to factor that in.

 

[mysticO]

You're not actually thinking about how the rules affect the game. All you're doing is saying Jordan > Lebron and puffing out your chest with some nostalgic 80s love sprinkled over top of a heavy dosage of believing that the only possible good defense is the kind that knocks a guy on his ass. You've already made up your mind before ever examining the mitigating factors of it all.



Read those quotes again. Follow their logic. They're all talking about what Jordan could do with no handchecks. What they aren't factoring in is how NBA defenses now allow you to pack the paint, throw help defenses out there, etc. Joe Johnson is right. No hand checking gives you an extra step because a guy isn't resting his arm on you. What he left out is there's multiple guys there in the paint who can play off their man to meet you. This factoid constantly gets lost in in Era comparison. Guys from the past; your Browns, Jacksons, Shaqs, Barkleys, etc all do it. Some of that is just typical generational pride, the "back in my day, it was the best" thing. And some of it is just being flat wrong about how thinks work. Like how Shaq constantly says a good big man should be able to average 28pts and 15rebs despite the fact the defensive rules make it so that even the best of the best big men will have a hard time doing that. The game doesn't work that way. Both sets of rules have trade offs. It's not like no handchecking means free runs to the rim for everyone. 50 a game would really freaking hard to do, even for Jordan. Yeah, if it was 80s rules with no handchecking, sure. He absolutely could because there's no defensive resistance once he breaks down his one on one defender because rules prevent people from leaving their man to protect an area. It'd be a layup drill. But the new rules do allow for that and that feature makes up for the handchecks. You have to factor that in.

So many crap flying around on this troll thread which I just want to clear up especially for the Lebron fan boys.

Fact #1
It did NOT become harder to score because the illegal defense was eliminated in 2000/01. Why? Because they also included the defensive 3 second rule (which permitted players from standing in the lane for more than 3 seconds without guarding an offensive player) therefore eliminating a true zone defense.

What does the stats show?
League average scoring stats did not go down dramatically on or after 2000/2001. You can look at the pts per game or eFG%.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...NBA_stats.html

Fact #2
It DID become easier to score after they curtailed the handchecking rule in 2004/05.

What does the stats show?
Points per game went up by 4 pts that year and the eFG% went up from .471 (a year before) to .482 that year and it has been going up and up. The past regular season was at .501 (highest in history of the league).
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...NBA_stats.html

Fact #3
After the MJ/Bulls effect, teams wanted to be the next Bulls and players wanted to be the next Jordan. From the late 90's you can see a shift of teams going towards relying their offense on their perimeter players rather than post players.

What does the stats show?

Highest Field goal attempts
Pre Y2K era
90/91 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1_leaders.html
91/92 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...2_leaders.html
92/93 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...3_leaders.html
93/94 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...4_leaders.html
94/95 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...5_leaders.html
95/96 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...6_leaders.html
96/97 - (At this stage more and more perimeter players taking the burden of offense)
-
-

Post Y2K era (Look at how much FGA these perimeter players take even tho games were played at lower pace compared to early 90's. And when you have Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryan and Tracy Mcgrady etc.. shooting at close to 2000 attempts per year at a FG% avg of about .450....that really pushed the scoring stats down in the league)

00/01 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1_leaders.html
01/02 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...2_leaders.html
02/03 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...3_leaders.html
03/04 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...4_leaders.html
04/05 - (Handchecking curtailed since the perimeter oriented players at this stage was just stinking up the joint with their bad wanna be ISO mike offense)
-
-
13/14 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...4_leaders.html

In Summary
-NBA offense started to stink around 97/98 as more and more teams went perimeter oriented and players trying to be like Mike
-NBA offense really stunk it up during 98/99 due to lock out and more and more teams went for more perimeter oriented offense
-2001/02 they got rid of illegal defense and put in 3 second defensive rule. Didn't do much in regards to making the offense worse or better. It was still stinking.
-2004/2005 League worried about the stinking stench which is called scoring in the game and the persistence of teams going for perimeter oriented offense and the lack of skilled big men coming up the ranks (because previous 13yr olds that wanted to be like Mike unfortunately grew up to be 7ft)....they came up with a brilliant idea....since teams are adamant to go perimeter oriented offense and lack of big men with fundamental post game...lets make it easy for perimeter players! Lets get rid of Handchecking!
-Since 2004/05 to now...scoring is higher, and eFG% is higher. NBA chiefs are happy...spectators are happy. 12 year olds claiming 80's 90's have nothing compared to todays players making old timers unhappy.

 

[gohusk]

I don't know. I wouldn't take Magic or Hakeem over him, I'd be on the fence with Robinson, Bird and him would be a toss up, don't smoke enough crack to take him over Jordan. But beyond that I can't think of a single player that I'd take over him since 1980 (won't mention Kareem because his best days were before showtime). I can't stand the guy but anybody that thinks he'd somehow be above average in any era is a massive hater. The guy's awesome. He's one of the greatest ever. Yes, he gets away with walks. Yes, he's a total prima donna, yes, he gets some ridiculous calls. But that doesn't take away from the fact that he's a basketball freak. You can have Karl Malone. Don't know how many times I saw that pedo come out flat in big games and huck up bricks. Barkley was great but he didn't have the all around game that James did.

 

[wildturkey]

So many crap flying around on this troll thread which I just want to clear up especially for the Lebron fan boys.

Fact #1
It did NOT become harder to score because the illegal defense was eliminated in 2000/01. Why? Because they also included the defensive 3 second rule (which permitted players from standing in the lane for more than 3 seconds without guarding an offensive player) therefore eliminating a true zone defense.

What does the stats show?
League average scoring stats did not go down dramatically on or after 2000/2001. You can look at the pts per game or eFG%.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...NBA_stats.html

Fact #2
It DID become easier to score after they curtailed the handchecking rule in 2004/05.

What does the stats show?
Points per game went up by 4 pts that year and the eFG% went up from .471 (a year before) to .482 that year and it has been going up and up. The past regular season was at .501 (highest in history of the league).
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...NBA_stats.html

Fact #3
After the MJ/Bulls effect, teams wanted to be the next Bulls and players wanted to be the next Jordan. From the late 90's you can see a shift of teams going towards relying their offense on their perimeter players rather than post players.

What does the stats show?

Highest Field goal attempts
Pre Y2K era
90/91 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1_leaders.html
91/92 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...2_leaders.html
92/93 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...3_leaders.html
93/94 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...4_leaders.html
94/95 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...5_leaders.html
95/96 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...6_leaders.html
96/97 - (At this stage more and more perimeter players taking the burden of offense)
-
-

Post Y2K era (Look at how much FGA these perimeter players take even tho games were played at lower pace compared to early 90's. And when you have Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryan and Tracy Mcgrady etc.. shooting at close to 2000 attempts per year at a FG% avg of about .450....that really pushed the scoring stats down in the league)

00/01 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1_leaders.html
01/02 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...2_leaders.html
02/03 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...3_leaders.html
03/04 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...4_leaders.html
04/05 - (Handchecking curtailed since the perimeter oriented players at this stage was just stinking up the joint with their bad wanna be ISO mike offense)
-
-
13/14 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...4_leaders.html

In Summary
-NBA offense started to stink around 97/98 as more and more teams went perimeter oriented and players trying to be like Mike
-NBA offense really stunk it up during 98/99 due to lock out and more and more teams went for more perimeter oriented offense
-2001/02 they got rid of illegal defense and put in 3 second defensive rule. Didn't do much in regards to making the offense worse or better. It was still stinking.
-2004/2005 League worried about the stinking stench which is called scoring in the game and the persistence of teams going for perimeter oriented offense and the lack of skilled big men coming up the ranks (because previous 13yr olds that wanted to be like Mike unfortunately grew up to be 7ft)....they came up with a brilliant idea....since teams are adamant to go perimeter oriented offense and lack of big men with fundamental post game...lets make it easy for perimeter players! Lets get rid of Handchecking!
-Since 2004/05 to now...scoring is higher, and eFG% is higher. NBA chiefs are happy...spectators are happy. 12 year olds claiming 80's 90's have nothing compared to todays players making old timers unhappy.

Not sure what you're going for other than just doing a lot of research that doesn't really go against anything I'm saying. No handchecking increases scoring, especially perimeter oriented scoring. Duh. Don't think I ever said it didn't. What I said was there's other defensive rules in place in today's game that would still keep Jordan from getting 50 per game. People act like no handchecking means a player is just free to score from anywhere with no defensive resistance of any kind. Jordan for his career averaged something like 30 to 32 a game (look it up, I don't feel like it right now) under the old rules. Under the modern rules, he'd do better, but it'd still probably be somewhere in the 30s. Like 35 to 38 pts a game. At his absolute peak, maybe he can get 40. But 50 is a bridge too far.

And as it relates to Lebron, just like I said the first time. He's huge. Handchecking isn't gonna slow him much at all and under the old rules, there's no multiple defenders with a foot in the lane to clog his path. His scoring average would likely go up. With his frame and skillset, the rules wouldn't really harm him.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

You discount what experts say about MJ (even one that has worked with Mike, Kobe AND Lebron) and you say LBJs scoring would go UP in an era when the defenses were more physical and had fewer rules hamstringing them.

Sounds legit...

 

[mysticO]

Not sure what you're going for other than just doing a lot of research that doesn't really go against anything I'm saying. No handchecking increases scoring, especially perimeter oriented scoring. Duh. Don't think I ever said it didn't. What I said was there's other defensive rules in place in today's game that would still keep Jordan from getting 50 per game. People act like no handchecking means a player is just free to score from anywhere with no defensive resistance of any kind. Jordan for his career averaged something like 30 to 32 a game (look it up, I don't feel like it right now) under the old rules. Under the modern rules, he'd do better, but it'd still probably be somewhere in the 30s. Like 35 to 38 pts a game. At his absolute peak, maybe he can get 40. But 50 is a bridge too far.

And as it relates to Lebron, just like I said the first time. He's huge. Handchecking isn't gonna slow him much at all and under the old rules, there's no multiple defenders with a foot in the lane to clog his path. His scoring average would likely go up. With his frame and skillset, the rules wouldn't really harm him.

My response was not directed at the discussion about Jordan getting 50pts a game...although no one would actually seriously think he would avg that...but merely an exaggerated suggestion to emphasis there point about handchecking.

What irritates me is the misconception that the elimination of illegal defense negates the curtailing of handchecking or that the defense of today is harder because of this reason even without hand checking.

Getting rid of handchecking is such a benefit for perimeter players and Lebron.

If you are a guard, and you are fast....there is nothing a perimeter defender can do to give you any resistance at all. Now it requires a whole team to stop a guard. And guess what that does? it opens up the court for your shooters who stand in the 3pt line waiting for a kick out. So you can imagine the margin of error for the team is very little..as any miscommunication or wrong guesses (i.e. weak side defender thinks theres a kickout and does not help)....the offensive guard has an easy drive to the basket.

With handcheck...you can have defenders, who maybe slow...but still able to provide some resistance of guard penetration till help arrives. You know how tiring that becomes for guards who continually penetrate but have the defenders hands in there hips providing some resistance? That's why a lot of players in those days had there backs to the basket.

Also don't have the misconception that prior to the elimination of the illegal defense, everyone stuck to there man like glue. You were allowed to sag of your man. The only difference was that you cannot double team a player unless he had the ball. Once a player has the ball, you could ALWAYS double/triple team him.

Tell me why would Lebron improve offensively? You say the lane wasn't clogged then? you have it all wrong...80's and 90's were all played in the post and ruled by the big men.

Defensively I could see Lebron dominate tho.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

What people seem to forget is that the caliber of players in the 80s was much higher

Sure, Lebron can score 40 points or more when Andrew Bogut is guarding you. Now try it when Malone, Hakeem or Kareem is facing you off.

 

[Rock Strongo]

hell, the 90's

oakley, mason, etc manning up in the paint. lebron would be in traction.

 

[ducky]

Yeah a guy the same size as Karl Malone with more athletic ability than Magic Johnson would have struggle big time in the 80's.

 

[ducky]

When multiple teams with losing records make the playoffs in the Eastern Conference the level of play in the league is in bad shape. It's not going to get any better after this years draft either considering the fact the 1st 2 picks in the draft belong to Western Conference teams.

Jordan's Bulls once made the playoffs with a 30-52 record.

There has always been team's with losing records in the playoffs. That is what happens when you let in half the league.

 

[Tharvot]

Hahaha. LeBron is the best in the current generation and quite possibly the best there ever has been. Put him in any decade and he's the best...only Jordan could possibly have a leg up on him and if I'm picking players in their primes I'm taking James over Jordan.

 

[lakersrule]

I've never understood why people think that the elites of one era wouldn't be as successful in another era. They'd still dominate regardless of the difference in rules and style of play. A handcheck isn't going to slow down a Lebron or a Kobe.

 

[ducky]

I've never understood why people think that the elites of one era wouldn't be as successful in another era. They'd still dominate regardless of the difference in rules and style of play. A handcheck isn't going to slow down a Lebron or a Kobe.

There are quite a few players from the 70's and 80's that wouldn't be good in this era of basketball. The athletic difference is just too much.

It isn't as acute as it is in football (there aren't a lot of great NFL football players from 40 years ago that could play well in this era) but it is still pretty relevant in NBA discussions.

But players from this era going back would have a much easier transition and would often be a lot better because of the athletic advantage they would have over players from past era. Lebron is freaky athletic for a man his size in today's era. If he had played in the iso-80's, there would have been no way to guard him as no one from that era had the combo of strength and speed to stick with him.