If 'Bronbron had played in the 80's...

[wildturkey]

Why was pace and scoring high? Do i have to really spell it out? Games in those days were played on the post. A lot of possesions, is used to dump in the post and the big man do his work. That's why it's so clogged in the lane compared to today....it was not a permieter friendly league. Did you know roughly about 30% of the pts back then were scored by perimeter players? Today roughly about 70% of the pts are scored by the perimeter players? Does that paint enough of a big picture for you?

When an offense is generated at the perimeter...theres more passing around the perimeter to try and free up a perimeter player for a shot or for a drive. In the mid 90s to early 00's...more and more teams went to perimeter oriented offense, and with handchecking involved and without a defensive 3 seconds...the perimeter player had a tough time getting quality shots hence you see a massive drop in pace and fg%.

Makes sense?

I'm talking about why the pace and scoring was so high in the 80s. The rules in the two decades (80s and 90s) were for the most part the same. So if its so hard to score in the post because of the defenders, how come no one had much trouble in the 80s but all of sudden in the mid 90s, its much harder? And the teams did not start the perimeter trend until the 00s (AFTER the rule changes, not before) so that's not the answer unless you want to tell me those mid 90s teams were throwing money at Shaq and tanking for Tim Duncan so they could all jack 3 pointers. Stop with this.

The answer is because the 80s weren't as physical as you think despite having similar rules. You could get out and run/cut/move,etc and there was more free flowing movement. Pace goes up when there's more freedom of movement. Yes, you could pack the paint and send doubles like in the Pistons videos. But the NBA also called more fouls. So while there was traffic, you're getting a foul. That's points and added possessions. Why did this stop in the mid 90s? Aside from talent depletion from expansion, the league stopped calling a lot of those fouls. It mucked the game up. Coaches started controlling everything on defense by having their players hold, grab, bump, etc. It's basically the same shit going on in college right now that makes that game unwatchable. That's why it dropped. So in the early 00s, the league started changing defensive rules to try get more freedom of movement back in the game.

 

[mysticO]

I'm talking about why the pace and scoring was so high in the 80s. The rules in the two decades (80s and 90s) were for the most part the same. So if its so hard to score in the post because of the defenders, how come no one had much trouble in the 80s but all of sudden in the mid 90s, its much harder? And the teams did not start the perimeter trend until the 00s (AFTER the rule changes, not before) so that's not the answer unless you want to tell me those mid 90s teams were throwing money at Shaq and tanking for Tim Duncan so they could all jack 3 pointers. Stop with this.

The answer is because the 80s weren't as physical as you think despite having similar rules. You could get out and run/cut/move,etc and there was more free flowing movement. Pace goes up when there's more freedom of movement. Yes, you could pack the paint and send doubles like in the Pistons videos. But the NBA also called more fouls. So while there was traffic, you're getting a foul. That's points and added possessions. Why did this stop in the mid 90s? Aside from talent depletion from expansion, the league stopped calling a lot of those fouls. It mucked the game up. Coaches started controlling everything on defense by having their players hold, grab, bump, etc. It's basically the same shit going on in college right now that makes that game unwatchable. That's why it dropped. So in the early 00s, the league started changing defensive rules to try get more freedom of movement back in the game.

So many misguided quotes there from you.

Let me break it down piece by piece.

So if its so hard to score in the post because of the defenders, how come no one had much trouble in the 80s but all of sudden in the mid 90s, its much harder?

I thought I have already explained it? The end score in the games in the 80's were higher because of the pace of the game. The pace of the game was fast because a lot of the possessions, the ball was lobbed to the post to one of the big men who then do there work under the rim. There was not much passing around the perimeter to setup a perimeter player for a drive or for an open 3. THE INTRODUCTION OF THE 3PT LINE STARTED THE DECLINE OF THE PACE.
The FG% was higher back then, which is understanable because the closer you are to the ring, the higher the %, but of course there is going to be more fouls since muscling plays under the ring... HOWEVER, TODAY'S NBA HAS THE HIGHEST eFG% which takes into account the 3pt being worth 50% more than a normal field goal. So infact, today's era is the easiest to score at a higher effeciency!

And the teams did not start the perimeter trend until the 00s (AFTER the rule changes, not before) so that's not the answer unless you want to tell me those mid 90s teams were throwing money at Shaq and tanking for Tim Duncan so they could all jack 3 pointers.

As soon as the 3pt line was introduced that started the trend. It got accelerated by the "I want to be like Mike" phenemonen and other teams wanting to model the Bulls. It got accelerated even further by shortening the 3pt line for a few years in the mid 90s. As more teams went perimeter oriented offense, it slowed down the pace and stunk up the league especially late 90's and early 00's. NBA chiefs had no choice but to curtail handchecking, introduce defensive 3 seconds and to get rid of illegal defense to try and speed up to make it easier for perimeter players.

Look at the trend so you can see for yourself.
NBA League Averages | Basketball-Reference.com

 

[wildturkey]

So many misguided quotes there from you.

Let me break it down piece by piece.


I thought I have already explained it? The end score in the games in the 80's were higher because of the pace of the game. The pace of the game was fast because a lot of the possessions, the ball was lobbed to the post to one of the big men who then do there work under the rim. There was not much passing around the perimeter to setup a perimeter player for a drive or for an open 3. THE INTRODUCTION OF THE 3PT LINE STARTED THE DECLINE OF THE PACE.
The FG% was higher back then, which is understanable because the closer you are to the ring, the higher the %, but of course there is going to be more fouls since muscling plays under the ring... HOWEVER, TODAY'S NBA HAS THE HIGHEST eFG% which takes into account the 3pt being worth 50% more than a normal field goal. So infact, today's era is the easiest to score at a higher effeciency!

Pace was already declining before teams really started using more 3s though. This isn't all about the 3. It's about how the league got too physical. Also, since scoring is more likely if you get closer to the rim and there was no need to pass around the perimeter searching open shots, why is it so hard to see how a player like Lebron's scoring average could rise? He's a strong finisher whether its post up or drives, he's too big for a handcheck to slow him down significantly so with his size and handle, he's getting there. And those passing opportunities that are present today weren't there before so he's more likely to just score because that's where his advantage is. It's not too big of a stretch to think his scoring average would tick up a bit.

As soon as the 3pt line was introduced that started the trend. It got accelerated by the "I want to be like Mike" phenemonen and other teams wanting to model the Bulls. It got accelerated even further by shortening the 3pt line for a few years in the mid 90s. As more teams went perimeter oriented offense, it slowed down the pace and stunk up the league especially late 90's and early 00's. NBA chiefs had no choice but to curtail handchecking, introduce defensive 3 seconds and to get rid of illegal defense to try and speed up to make it easier for perimeter players.

Look at the trend so you can see for yourself.
NBA League Averages | Basketball-Reference.com

You realize that was a commercial and not an actual thing teams did, right? Because A) MJ rarely shot 3s so why would a team incorporate the 3 pt shot as a large feature of your offense if that was never a part of his game and B) if other teams wanted to model the Bulls, the triangle would be everywhere. You're stretching that a bit too far.

Reply if you want. I'm spent with it. We're probably both wasting our time at this point.

 

[mysticO]

Pace was already declining before teams really started using more 3s though. This isn't all about the 3. It's about how the league got too physical. Also, since scoring is more likely if you get closer to the rim and there was no need to pass around the perimeter searching open shots, why is it so hard to see how a player like Lebron's scoring average could rise? He's a strong finisher whether its post up or drives, he's too big for a handcheck to slow him down significantly so with his size and handle, he's getting there. And those passing opportunities that are present today weren't there before so he's more likely to just score because that's where his advantage is. It's not too big of a stretch to think his scoring average would tick up a bit.

You just don't have a good grasp on what's different between the 80s/90s and todays era. It's staring you in the face.

If the NBA got rid of the 3pt line today....guess what will happen? Pace will pick up...no more swinging the ball from side to side from the perimeter, running plays to get some open 3pt shots, no more drive and dish out...teams will just draft the biggest players they can to pass the ball inside the post....people with post moves and great midrange fade away shots will be highly desired etc.. THE LANES WILL BE CLOGGED MY FRIEND. You can't just have perimeter players with Lebron's size just charge to the ring. Impossible.
In the 80's when the 3pt line was introduced, it took sometime for the teams to incorporate this fully, so in the 80s the lanes were clogged.

There is a reason why people say the 3pt play and the curtailing of handchecking and implementing the defensive 3 second rule and eliminating the illegal zone defense was to open up the lane. They werent just saying that to be fancy.

You realize that was a commercial and not an actual thing teams did, right? Because A) MJ rarely shot 3s so why would a team incorporate the 3 pt shot as a large feature of your offense if that was never a part of his game and B) if other teams wanted to model the Bulls, the triangle would be everywhere. You're stretching that a bit too far.

Reply if you want. I'm spent with it. We're probably both wasting our time at this point.

Duh...it was a commercial thing....but guess who watched those commercials? The kids who became the future NBA stars, your Lebron's, your Kobe Bryant's, your DWade etc.. they shape there skills on there idol growing up..a lot of them coming to the NBA with high hopes of becoming the next Jordan. The fundamentals of being a post players are diminished, because kids that grow up to become 7ft tall saw the highlights of Jordan and they want to do those flashy dunks.

The influence of the Bulls domination in the 90s with two 3peats showed other teams they need a ball dominant guard and to have shooters waiting in the 3pt line.

Yes you maybe right, i maybe wasting time...because you tend to gloss over the facts and stats im giving you with your objective assumptions