I know I will get Criticized but.....

[HammerDown]

Most teams wouldn't have sacrificed their playoffs hopes by continuing to bat him second when he was 40.

"consummate professional!"

"selfless!"

"team first!"

"no one sacrifices more for his teammates than ole Jeets!"

LOL Dude held that entire ballclub and their fans hostage over his retirement gloryhounding and shockingly it wasn't even half as bad as what Mariano did.

What a disgrace to the game of baseball.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Also, not every team would have brought him up at 21. No reason to rush at that age. In 2013 at age 20 Miguel Sano hit .280 with 35 HR's and 103 RBI's and even though he was hurt early in the 2014 season there is no way the Twins rush him up while they suck and start his major league service clock.

Considering shortstop's a very thin position, I think most teams would bring him up that early.

Just looking at some of 'big name' shortstops we've seen in recent history and when they became starters:
-Hanley: age 22
-Reyes: age 20
-Rollins: age 22
-Tulo: age 22
-Castro: age 20
-Andrus: age 20
-Peralta: age 21
-Simmons: age 22

Very few guys who were considered talented shortstops at early ages start much later than age 20-22, and when they do it's often because they were a late bloomer (such as Ian Desmond) or didn't become a pro until a relatively late age (such as Alexei Ramirez or Yunel Escobar).

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Also, not every team would have brought him up at 21. No reason to rush at that age. In 2013 at age 20 Miguel Sano hit .280 with 35 HR's and 103 RBI's and even though he was hurt early in the 2014 season there is no way the Twins rush him up while they suck and start his major league service clock.

I just looked over Jeter's draft position and minor league career. 1st round draft pick, 3+ full seasons in the minors, spanning A through AAA, where he OPSed north of .800 at almost every stop, was ranked as the #4 prospect in baseball, so the Yanks got really crazy, and at age 21, they rushed Jeter into a 15-game cup of coffee. . .

 

[Nosferatu]

Wow. You think I was comparing Derek Jeter to Babe Ruth?

Maybe comparing wasn't the right word but you using Ruth to make a point made no sense.

 

[Nosferatu]

Again, wow. Service clock?

If you don't understand what it means to bring a player up and shorten the teams control of a player i'll explain it to you.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

"consummate professional!"

"selfless!"

"team first!"

"no one sacrifices more for his teammates than ole Jeets!"

LOL Dude held that entire ballclub and their fans hostage over his retirement gloryhounding and shockingly it wasn't even half as bad as what Mariano did.

What a disgrace to the game of baseball.

You know, the only people I ever see saying those things about Jeter are his detractors in jest.

As far as the retirement tour, my guess is that the ball club that you think was held hostage was more realistically elated at the marketing opportunities. It is a business, after all.

 

[Nosferatu]

I just looked over Jeter's draft position and minor league career. 1st round draft pick, 3+ full seasons in the minors, spanning A through AAA, where he OPSed north of .800 at almost every stop, was ranked as the #4 prospect in baseball, so the Yanks got really crazy, and at age 21, they rushed Jeter into a 15-game cup of coffee. . .

You might notice I said NOT EVERY TEAM. The Twins are a prime example of a team that holds players in the minors as long as possible.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Maybe comparing wasn't the right word but you using Ruth to make a point made no sense.

You're right. It wasn't the right word.

 

[HammerDown]

You know, the only people I ever see saying those things about Jeter are his detractors in jest.

As far as the retirement tour, my guess is that the ball club that you think was held hostage was more realistically elated at the marketing opportunities. It is a business, after all.

Tell me this...

Does it make sense for a team serious about competing for a pennant to keep Derek Jeter in the 2-hole all season long?

Did Joe Girardi have the power to lift Jeter from the 2-hole and drop him down where he belonged?

If not, and if Derek Jeter is a "consummate professional" and as "selfless" as his worshipers would have us believe, why didn't get go to the manager and do the right thing?

It can't be about the numbers since no one, and I mean NO ONE is "less interested in stats than ole Jeets" right?

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

You might notice I said NOT EVERY TEAM. The Twins are a prime example of a team that holds players in the minors as long as possible.

Considering shortstop's a very thin position, I think most teams would bring him up that early.

Just looking at some of 'big name' shortstops we've seen in recent history and when they became starters:
-Hanley: age 22
-Reyes: age 20
-Rollins: age 22
-Tulo: age 22
-Castro: age 20
-Andrus: age 20
-Peralta: age 21
-Simmons: age 22

Very few guys who were considered talented shortstops at early ages start much later than age 20-22, and when they do it's often because they were a late bloomer (such as Ian Desmond) or didn't become a pro until a relatively late age (such as Alexei Ramirez or Yunel Escobar).

Great post.

 

[Nosferatu]

You're right. It wasn't the right word.

I was also right in you using Ruth to make a point was wrong...

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Tell me this...

Does it make sense for a team serious about competing for a pennant to keep Derek Jeter in the 2-hole all season long?

Did Joe Girardi have the power to lift Jeter from the 2-hole and drop him down where he belonged?

If not, and if Derek Jeter is a "consummate professional" and as "selfless" as his worshipers would have us believe, why didn't get go to the manager and do the right thing?

It can't be about the numbers since no one, and I mean NO ONE is "less interested in stats than ole Jeets" right?

Speaking of changing the debate. . .

Anyway, here are my answers.

No.

I don't know, but considering he didn't, I'd guess no.

I've never heard anyone seriously call him selfless. That said, my guess as to why he didn't insist to be dropped in the order is because he's a competitor and wanted to be there, he felt he'd earned it, or he just didn't care. I don't know. Call him selfish and I won't disagree with you. That doesn't make him overrated, though.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I was also right in you using Ruth to make a point was wrong...

No.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

It's been fun talking baseball, folks. Enjoy your evenings.

 

[HammerDown]

I've never heard anyone seriously call him selfless.

 

[StanMarsh51]

You might notice I said NOT EVERY TEAM. The Twins are a prime example of a team that holds players in the minors as long as possible.

Yet at a thin position like SS, they had no problem having Christian Guzman play 130+ games at age 21, which goes along with all the other names I listed of guys who became starting shoorstops at young ages. Same went with Joe Mauer, who also came up at a thin position.

 

[Nosferatu]

Yet at a thin position like SS, they had no problem having Christian Guzman play 130+ games at age 21, which goes along with all the other names I listed of guys who became starting shoorstops at young ages.

He was part of the Knoblauch trade, they had to put someone on the field to try and show why Knoblauch was traded so him and Eric Milton played when they weren't ready. You might notice he was great at age 21 he had a OBP that year of .267.

 

[StanMarsh51]

He was part of the Knoblauch trade, they had to put someone on the field to try and show why Knoblauch was traded so him and Eric Milton played when they weren't ready. You might notice he was great at age 21 he had a OBP that year of .267.

They didn't have to do anything to impress anyone. Guzman was a rated prospect (ranked a top 70 prospect before being called up) so clearly he was viewed as a talent, and at a thin position like SS, you can only go with guys like Pat Mears for so long.

Mauer was also called up at age 21. If you were to look at the average age called up by position, I'd put my money on the positions up the middle being the youngest ages.

So with all those guys listed as coming up at early ages, I don't think any team would be holding a player like Jeter in the minors till a later age unless there's some superstar type player blocking him.

 

[cerealboi]

Oh, then you will definitely enjoy the Daily thread once the season starts, especially if Cerealboi brings his friends

Most of my friends aren't welcome here.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Jeter is over-rated the same ray tom Brady is over-rated... and Both are... they have become larger than life and their names became larger than their actual play...

I wrote this earlier, but the biggest reason he is seen to be over-rated is because he is too consistent... the best seasons were not that much better than his worst seasons... So his longevity and consistency makes up his future first ballot HOF status, but he was just never GREAT... And i agree that Nomar's best seasons were better than Jeters... Then again, so was miguel Tejada, Troy tulowitzki, even Jose Reyes...

We talk about his intangibles, but does anyone know what that even means, it basically just means he was the face of one of the best dynasties of baseball history and he played the game the RIGHT way(ran out ground balls, always gave 100%).

BUT Jeter would have been much better than solid for any team he would have played for if not the Yankees... the career .310 BA and .377 OBP, should have looked similar no matter who he played for... and since he was relatively healthy throughout his career, it is more than likely he would still have gotten his 3000+ hits, and would still be a HOFer... even if his legacy would be much less...