• Have something to say? Register Now! and be posting in minutes!

Hurts getting paid

fightinfunbags

Well-Known Member
56,557
36,395
1,033
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
Location
G
Hoopla Cash
$ 6,330.02
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Absolutely it is. Don't believe the crap you read. Those players got the franchise tag because in part the team wasn't ready to commit to them. Plus, what if either suffered a career ending injury (Dak almost did). Then you are out after one year. Compare that to if Watson suffers a career ending injury. Also, you have now pushed out their contract for another year of their prime age which perhaps makes you not offer them that 3rd contract you might have if you didn't tag them and instead entered into a contract earlier. Plus with Dak it really ended up similar to the 5th year option that 1st round QBs get (but a little more). Why aren't you saying the same for Schultz? One year and done instead of a 4 year $48M deal looks brilliant now. It all evens out. Better to pay a few million more per year as insurance which is offset by the deals you end up not entering into like Schultz. I love putting off contracts when possible. They should have tagged Zeke once or twice and then got out. That too would have worked out much better. If Pollard doesn't come back healthy he gets less or they move on. If he does then you are more certain he is worth the money when you give it to him a year later.

And like you said Wentz is another great example. Tagging him would have worked out better.
The franchise tag is the tool of a bad franchise. It rarely works out. It usually sullies the relationship.
 

jarntt

Well-Known Member
34,567
12,996
1,033
Joined
Aug 19, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Nope. The plan is for him to renegotiate right around the time the cap hit is set to be 31 million. The plan isn’t to let him go, but they’re protected in case the prospect goes south or injuries screws up his trajectory.
This is where I'm not sure if you follow the specifics of way the cap works or are glossing over a key point in restructures. If you assume those tweets are accurate or at least similar to what the real contract is, you can't do anything to reduce his cap hit when it hits only $31M. That year in the possible example shown and likely in reality will have a minimal base salary so there is nothing to restructure. Again using those tweets for illustrative purposes, they will restructure his deal once his salary goes up to $51M or cut him and cutting him would have a huge dead money hit. if they restructure both of those $51M salaries you lower his 2028 cap hit from $76M to $56M but you have also made his dead money after the deal ends $98M. As in the contract is up and the player has been paid out his cash and you still have to account for $98M against your cap and since that is all bonus cap hit that was allocated you cannot reduce it and if you sing him to another deal you still can't do anything to reduce it.
 

jarntt

Well-Known Member
34,567
12,996
1,033
Joined
Aug 19, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Again using those tweets as the numbers it looks to me like Philly has an out after 3 years for $151.6M ($50.5M per). So more per year than I was assuming with a 4 year out because the 3 year out instead of 4 pushes the amount per year up. But the benefit is if he shits the bed they can be done after 3 years at $50M each. I'd say that's pretty fair for both sides. More than Hurts may be worth but the shorter the deal the more it will always cost per year.
 

eaglesnut

Well-Known Member
29,470
5,964
533
Joined
Sep 2, 2014
Location
Heaven
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Sure minus the 150 million hit between 27 and 28.

Did you see the one projection that Eagles guy did? It's how I saw it also.

And I'm no expert I don't think most anyone is outside of the NFL.
There aren't many experts inside the NFL either. Howie has lead the way for over a decade. Banner was using cap tricks with the NLTBE incentives for a decade before that. Banner also re-signed his young keepers early. Howie has essentially combined those tricks with actually taking smart risks and taking advantage of franchises that get into cap trouble to maximize his resources almost every year instead of just being a cheap ass like Banner was.

As for the 150, that will spread into the future when the deal is redone in 3 years. Effectively keeping a nice fat window open in the present to add to what is a contending team.
 

eaglesnut

Well-Known Member
29,470
5,964
533
Joined
Sep 2, 2014
Location
Heaven
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
The NFL is definitely the hardest cap to grasp.
Easiest to manipulate.

Eagles fans have had to teach it to our own fanbase. For years the typical pre-offseason move was to cry about not having any cap money and then Howie would build a beast anyway. 6 years passed the Super Bowl now and most of the Eagles fanbase finally gets it. Most others haven't seen it first hand though.
 

Stakesarehigh

One day it will all make sense
39,686
24,799
1,033
Joined
Oct 8, 2016
Location
Cincinnati
Hoopla Cash
$ 77,957.12
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
There aren't many experts inside the NFL either. Howie has lead the way for over a decade. Banner was using cap tricks with the NLTBE incentives for a decade before that. Banner also re-signed his young keepers early. Howie has essentially combined those tricks with actually taking smart risks and taking advantage of franchises that get into cap trouble to maximize his resources almost every year instead of just being a cheap ass like Banner was.

As for the 150, that will spread into the future when the deal is redone in 3 years. Effectively keeping a nice fat window open in the present to add to what is a contending team.

Agreed totally.
 

Iggloo

Fly, Eagles Fly
23,212
8,766
533
Joined
Sep 2, 2014
Hoopla Cash
$ 150.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Absolutely it is. Don't believe the crap you read. Those players got the franchise tag because in part the team wasn't ready to commit to them. Plus, what if either suffered a career ending injury (Dak almost did). Then you are out after one year. Compare that to if Watson suffers a career ending injury. Also, you have now pushed out their contract for another year of their prime age which perhaps makes you not offer them that 3rd contract you might have if you didn't tag them and instead entered into a contract earlier. Plus with Dak it really ended up similar to the 5th year option that 1st round QBs get (but a little more). Why aren't you saying the same for Schultz? One year and done instead of a 4 year $48M deal looks brilliant now. It all evens out. Better to pay a few million more per year as insurance which is offset by the deals you end up not entering into like Schultz. I love putting off contracts when possible. They should have tagged Zeke once or twice and then got out. That too would have worked out much better. If Pollard doesn't come back healthy he gets less or they move on. If he does then you are more certain he is worth the money when you give it to him a year later.

And like you said Wentz is another great example. Tagging him would have worked out better.

I think we are talking in circles at this point, but it seems we actually agree on the facts:

* Using the franchise tag and waiting to re-sign star players is worse for the cap in the short term but reduces the risk of dead cap liability to teams in the long term.

* Signing players earlier is better for the cap short-term because you can amortize the contract but increases the risk of dead cap liability to teams if the players get hurt or don't pan out as promised.

It ultimately comes down to how much you trust your assessment of your own players, and how comfortable you are with the risk-reward ratio of re-signing players to long-term contracts.
 

Rowdy

Well-Known Member
6,501
2,471
173
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Hoopla Cash
$ 11,828.65
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Looks to me as if the eagles see hurts to be like LJ. Those future years they either cut him or he’s just not good enough to have leverage in renegotiating. He did get a no trade clause that might work for him. The kind of contract LJ needs. Pay cheap while he still has his legs. Then trade him out when it goes south
 

fastforward

Well-Known Member
4,535
1,764
173
Joined
Apr 24, 2013
Location
Bournemouth, UK.
Hoopla Cash
$ 3,832.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
The NFL salary cap isn’t real if you know how to work the system. When the dead cap is set to hit, it will be time to renegotiate which allows them to juke the dead cap money.
You can do this up to about 55% of the cap figure, (cumulative), so if the cap is $200M you can use about $110M of cap from future years. Beyond that you run into problems of having to retain and extend under-performing players simply because the cap cost of releasing them is too high.
 

fightinfunbags

Well-Known Member
56,557
36,395
1,033
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
Location
G
Hoopla Cash
$ 6,330.02
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
You can do this up to about 55% of the cap figure, (cumulative), so if the cap is $200M you can use about $110M of cap from future years. Beyond that you run into problems of having to retain and extend under-performing players simply because the cap cost of releasing them is too high.
The Eagles are very picky choosy when it comes to who gets a bag and the level of commitment given to that player. They tend to negotiate with guys early in order to make this happen. People thought they were nuts when they renegotiated and paid Mailotta before he ever started a game. Now he’s a relative bargain at 16 million for a plus starting LT.
 

Cyder

Justin
42,342
21,102
1,033
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
The Eagles are very picky choosy when it comes to who gets a bag and the level of commitment given to that player. They tend to negotiate with guys early in order to make this happen. People thought they were nuts when they renegotiated and paid Mailotta before he ever started a game. Now he’s a relative bargain at 16 million for a plus starting LT.
Tiki Barber was talking about the contract and I thought he summed it up nicely. "When it comes to QB and you find your guy, you pay your guy".
 

jarntt

Well-Known Member
34,567
12,996
1,033
Joined
Aug 19, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Tiki Barber was talking about the contract and I thought he summed it up nicely. "When it comes to QB and you find your guy, you pay your guy".
This is true. It was interesting that 3 of the final 4 teams last year had a starting QB on a cheap initial contract. However, those 3 QBs and their teams were all losers who ultimately fared little better than anyone else and the one that won had the highest paid QB in the league. My point is that I don't know what the point is...
 

fightinfunbags

Well-Known Member
56,557
36,395
1,033
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
Location
G
Hoopla Cash
$ 6,330.02
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
This is true. It was interesting that 3 of the final 4 teams last year had a starting QB on a cheap initial contract. However, those 3 QBs and their teams were all losers who ultimately fared little better than anyone else and the one that won had the highest paid QB in the league. My point is that I don't know what the point is...
Mahomes contract is team friendly and allows for the Chiefs to play games with their cap as well.
 

fastforward

Well-Known Member
4,535
1,764
173
Joined
Apr 24, 2013
Location
Bournemouth, UK.
Hoopla Cash
$ 3,832.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
The Eagles are very picky choosy when it comes to who gets a bag and the level of commitment given to that player. They tend to negotiate with guys early in order to make this happen. People thought they were nuts when they renegotiated and paid Mailotta before he ever started a game. Now he’s a relative bargain at 16 million for a plus starting LT.
All teams are choosy about who gets the long-term guarantees. That isn't the issue. Pushy 'some' money back to give you greater immediate cap access isn't the issue either. Every team does that to some extent, even if they don't want to because the rookie contract signings mandate it. The issue is how much current and previous season money already paid to players hasn't been accounted for by the end of this season. That figure is how much future cap space you're borrowing. As the cap increases the percentage you can overspend increases slightly as it's easier to push 1 big money signing bonus back rather than lots of smaller bonuses. Over time the 'no problem' number has gone up from 50% to around 55%. With the cap at $224.8M you can have a cumulative overspend of $123.6M without any real issue. Teams can push it further but beyond that but it causes problems. As best as I can see here are some of the Eagles player earnings for 2023 and earlier that have been paid but won't be accounted for until 2024 at the earliest:

Johnson $23.366M
Brown $22.153M
Slay $21.946M
Kelce $21.516M
Reddick $20.665M
Mailata $19.157M
Goedert $16.353M
Sweat $14.315M
Cox $14.300M
Graham $13.216M
Maddox $7.719M
Bradberry $6.388M
Elliot $4.041M

That's $205.135M the Eagles have 'borrowed' from future years' salary caps, (91% of the current cap). Teams can only designate 2 as post June 1 cuts/retirements. If all of those players died or retired the Eagles wouldn't be able to field a full 53-man roster in 2024 because of the acceleration of $160M in dead money cap hits.

For comparison the Rams were at about $95M last season with the Cowboys at $70M and the Seahawks at $65M, (rough ball-park figures on a cap of $208.2M).
 

fightinfunbags

Well-Known Member
56,557
36,395
1,033
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
Location
G
Hoopla Cash
$ 6,330.02
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
All teams are choosy about who gets the long-term guarantees. That isn't the issue. Pushy 'some' money back to give you greater immediate cap access isn't the issue either. Every team does that to some extent, even if they don't want to because the rookie contract signings mandate it. The issue is how much current and previous season money already paid to players hasn't been accounted for by the end of this season. That figure is how much future cap space you're borrowing. As the cap increases the percentage you can overspend increases slightly as it's easier to push 1 big money signing bonus back rather than lots of smaller bonuses. Over time the 'no problem' number has gone up from 50% to around 55%. With the cap at $224.8M you can have a cumulative overspend of $123.6M without any real issue. Teams can push it further but beyond that but it causes problems. As best as I can see here are some of the Eagles player earnings for 2023 and earlier that have been paid but won't be accounted for until 2024 at the earliest:

Johnson $23.366M
Brown $22.153M
Slay $21.946M
Kelce $21.516M
Reddick $20.665M
Mailata $19.157M
Goedert $16.353M
Sweat $14.315M
Cox $14.300M
Graham $13.216M
Maddox $7.719M
Bradberry $6.388M
Elliot $4.041M

That's $205.135M the Eagles have 'borrowed' from future years' salary caps, (91% of the current cap). Teams can only designate 2 as post June 1 cuts/retirements. If all of those players died or retired the Eagles wouldn't be able to field a full 53-man roster in 2024 because of the acceleration of $160M in dead money cap hits.

For comparison the Rams were at about $95M last season with the Cowboys at $70M and the Seahawks at $65M, (rough ball-park figures on a cap of $208.2M).
And by kicking the can down the road with small percentages coming due each year, they actually get more value for the dollars spent relative to a cap position. The $205 million you cite now as 91% of the cap will only account for about 68-70% of that cap in 2026 and even less in 2029.
 

wood20ks

Well-Known Member
Staff member
28,820
18,327
1,033
Joined
Jul 23, 2013
Location
Cubbie country
Hoopla Cash
$ 6,227.93
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
These qb contracts make me sick to my stomach.......

How is it a guy can makr 50 mill÷ and wants how much i guaranteed money,but them theirselves can not guarantee a SB win!!

I love the NFL as much as the next guy,but damn,it needs to stop.......

Us fans are the ones having to pay for that shit......its ridiculous.
 
Top