Hoke's WR's

[nonbcsfan]

Part of the reason you aren't getting top flight WRs has to do with the fact that you haven't had a WR drafted any higher than the 3rd round in 9 years. Maybe if you start developing these kids properly you'll attract more top-flight kids. Can't put the cart before the horse.

the other reason is that we didn't have a QB who could actually throw the ball since the days of Henne...

 

[nonbcsfan]

Bundini,

I get the sense that once Uncle Al (the player's pal?) is in his wheel-house, the only thing similar to Carr's offense will be the formations. And while I see both Carr and Hoke as meat-n-potatoes guys, I get the impression Hoke prefers his with Hot Sauce.

they have the same football philosophy, I just see Hoke as more of a risk taker... Hoke's attempt to beat South Carolina through extremely aggressve play calling at the bowl game is a perfect example of something Carr would never try...

 

[jalopy]

well I see you've met a whole bunch of new friends J..
Does it get any better than this?

The nature of the "west coast" offense is to establish the run first and thus make the vertical passing game more effective on play action, if you consider that to be 20th century, then you'll just have to learn to enjoy the past like the rest of the fan base...
No, no, no! I am hoping that Borges wakes up one day and realizes a fullback is a useless byproduct of a bygone era. That a decoy is a wooden duck, not a WR. That scoreboard are digital and can (and should) change by the minute.

Imagine if that other legendary AB played in a spread offense. He could have scored 6 touchdowns instead of four (of course he would have needed to find a new position). He could have been all world instead of All-City. He could have married...........aw, forget it.

 

[Chief]

By the way, I wish you and yours a happy Memorial Day Weekend. Many, including me, are thankful for the service of you and those like you.

Thank you.

Hoke is using a gameplan that is tried and proven to be successful. His failing is not seeing that blueprint was for another era. College football has moved on. If Hoke accomplishes his goals, Michigan Football will indeed return to prominence and be a big fish in a small pond (B1G). Do you want the program to compete for the Rose Bowl (if it even still exists) every year, or do you want Michigan's name etched on a national championship trophy?

So, what exactly does Alabama do that's won 3 of past 4 NC'S? Considering we've won only 1 NC in my 46 years...Until the latter part of Carr and thru RR, I never thought our problem was lack of talent. I always believed it was coaching. No we are recovering from a period of "lack of talent" and new coaching regime. It will take time, though with Hoke I don't think it will take long.

When looking back at the recent/previous NC teams, all had some sort of run game. At least enough of one to keep Defense's somewhat honest. I see that is what Hoke tried to fix first. If a Defense has to respect a run, then I believe having a modest pass game is a win.

Finally, none of us saw 1997, 2006 or 2011 coming. As fans we always hope for those seasons, but we haven't had many. You're getting too caught up in measurable's right now. Let's see how it all shakes out this season before you give Hoke a failing grade.

 

[jalopy]

Let's see how it all shakes out this season before you give Hoke a failing grade.
I have stated numerous times that I am a huge Hoke fan. I think he has an authenticity about him that is rare these days and it resonates with recruits. I just wish he were a little more forward thinking. "Preeminence in preserving and creating...". He has the preserving part down right, now he just needs the innovation to create.

 

[RobBase]

There is zero chance Desmond could be stretched to reach 5'9" and AC at 5'11" would have to be on stilts.

Desmond Howard is 5' 10" and Anthony Carter is 5' 11".

Notice that my point relied on talent being the determining factor for success, not size.

2012
Marquise Lee- 5'11"
Terrance Williams 6'1"
2011
Justin Blackmon 6"1"
Robert Woods 6'0"
2010
Ryan Broyles 5'10"
2009
Golden Tate 5'11"
Jordan Shipley 6'0"
2008
Michael Crabtree 6'1"
Dez Bryant 6'1"

Above is a list of First Team all-America WR's (AP) since 2008. What do all of them have in common? They are all shorter than Hoke's shortest WR recruit.

So which is it ? Talent? Or size? Here are some other things most of these WR's have in common:

Marquise Lee- 5'11" - USC
Terrance Williams 6'1" - Baylor
2011
Justin Blackmon 6"1" - Oklahoma State
Robert Woods 6'0" - USC
2010
Ryan Broyles 5'10" Oklahoma
2009
Golden Tate 5'11" - Notre Dame
Jordan Shipley 6'0" - Texas
2008
Michael Crabtree 6'1" - Texas Tech
Dez Bryant 6'1" - Oklahoma State

6 of 9 played in the Big 12 where every offense spreads 'em out and every QB throws for 50 + TD's a year. Then 99% the QB's, LT's and WR's go to the NFL and bust because they have no idea how to play pro football. Michigan is returning to it's pro football style offense, and that includes WR's 6'2 and taller. You want a slot WR when most of the time MI will be trotting out 2 WR's, a TE, a RB and a FB.

 

[Coyote57]

It read the way I intended. Hoke is recruiting gets based on size first, talent second.

J,

Not quite the same as saying Hoke is avoiding talent in order to bring in height... But...
Hmmm…. No, not buying that, you commented on Artavis Scott in a manner indicating you view him as a talent. Using Scott as a baseline talent-wise, (BTW He’s rated as the # 81 and #126 overall player) here’s the UM’s offers to WR’s - with their overall rankings - as of yesterday on Touch the Banner.

NOTE: There were a 2-3 listed as Ath = perhaps will ending up as WR’s, but I didn’t include them.

247 Sports Michigan's WR targets:
30. Malachi Dupre - WR
37. Drake Harris - WR
60. Mark Andrews - WR
91. Josh Malone - WR
113. Saeed Blacknall - WR
126. Artavis Scott - WR

As rated by 247: UM sought 5 higher rated WR than Scott (only got one)


Rivals 100 Michigan’s targets:
38. Josh Malone - WR
50. Jalen Brown - WR
57. Drake Harris - WR
58. Malachi Dupre - WR
68. Demarre Kitt - WR
71. Mark Andrews - WR
81. Artavis Scott - WR

As rated by Rivals: UM sought 6 higher rated WR than Scott (again only getting one)

I don’t have the time to go back over the previous 2 recruiting classes to find out who UM tried to get and where they were rated, but in the current class – if you like Scott's talent - regardless of their height - I’d say UM did go after talent relative to your own evaluation of talent, but the kids chose to go elsewhere.

 

[jalopy]

Great points Rob. My only point is that talent comes in all sizes and restricting yourself to shopping at the Big & Tall store could cause you to miss out on a talented athlete.
Desmond Howard is 5' 10"
I have stood next to Desmond in conversation multiple times and can 100% guarantee you, he is not 5'10". He may have towered over me in stature but my 6' frame is at least three inches taller.
You want a slot WR when most of the time MI will be trotting out 2 WR's, a TE, a RB and a FB.
Yeah, yeah rub it in.

 

[RobBase]

Honestly, I'm more concerned with the RB corps. I miss the days of having 4 deep, and they were all good. And a pro style QB. I guarantee the next time a MI QB or RB is projected to go in the 1st round of the NFL draft, MI will be threatening for the national title.

 

[Coyote57]

There is also the down-field blocking aspect to consider, too. I think this may be one of things the UM brain trust saw as missing in the Run-game..
I specifically included the weights to dissuade this contention.

J,

1st, this are H.S. kids, likely add another 5 -10 lbs before their 1st day on campus. W/ those hts they'll have the frames to add a lot more muscle than the 5'9 175 lb CB H.S. kids they'll one day have covering them. Adding around 20 lbs on ave. between now and their Jr. Sr college seasons is well within range of these 6'2+ kids. Sub- 6ft DB's adding an ave of 20lbs would be quite a feat. I expect to see of those most of those kids playing in the 215 and up range, vs DB's in the 200 and under range.

2nd, you underestimate leverage. Long levers are powerful tools. I made my living as a scrawny kid on the Oline and wrestling mat with leverage and coached leverage to my HS kids. Proper leverage overcame greater weight on a consistent basis.

3rd, a lot of the time in the open field all you really gotta do is run interference, I've coached a lot kids who really did not want contact - H.S. WR's are just supposed to run downfield and catch TDs and get the girls and the headlines, their not supposed to get their uni's dirty and maybe get a bruise... just ask their Momma's. I speak from experience. [When I coached Defense - we always referred to the WR as the Wimp Receiver and SE as the Scared End] A lot of those kids became effective (not pretty, certainly not intimidating) when I got them to understand about running interference, and 6-2 creates a lot more interference than 5-9.

For downfield blocking, I found that 6'2 & up, usually works better than 5'11 and under.

Maybe the problem with our running game is our running backs suck. Or we have lacked an effective gameplan to make the defense respect our, dare I say it, passing game.

I'd say there were lots of problems with the run game, and I say fix them all. My mantra to HS backs and receivers... "To want the rock you gotta block. No Block, No Rock". Team sport and all that. Now, between you me and the computer screen, I got the ball to play makers (when I had them) one way or another. But the backs and recievers who blocked got the Ball more often than the non-blockers.

 

[jalopy]

30. Malachi Dupre - WR
37. Drake Harris - WR
60. Mark Andrews - WR
91. Josh Malone - WR
113. Saeed Blacknall - WR
126. Artavis Scott - WR
Dupre is a monster. I know Jabril is working on him but he seems destined for warm weather. Same for Scott. Harris we have. Andrews is being recruited as a TE. Malone is off our radar (or at least we are off his). Haven't heard anything on Blacknall.

The reason I would love to get Scott isn't just because we could use his quickness and explosiveness, but because it would give us the inside track on his teammate George Campbell Jr. That would be the real catch.

 

[jalopy]

Now, between you me and the computer screen, I got the ball to play makers (when I had them) one way or another. But the backs and recievers who blocked got the Ball more often than the non-blockers.
Having never played the game, this confuses me. I think you are referring to paying your dues but some guys talents involve avoiding contact. I remember a couple of OSU Cowboys that couldn't block the sun with an umbrella but were pretty adept at breaking ankles.

 

[nonbcsfan]

Imagine if that other legendary AB played in a spread offense. He could have scored 6 touchdowns instead of four (of course he would have needed to find a new position). He could have been all world instead of All-City. He could have married...........aw, forget it.

well there is a saying in football, if you can successfully keep your opponent off balance with gimmicky plays, then you're a good team (Boise St is a fine example of that). When your opponents know exactly what the play is, and still can't stop it, then you're a great team (Alabama is a fine example of that).

 

[Chief]

they have the same football philosophy, I just see Hoke as more of a risk taker... Hoke's attempt to beat South Carolina through extremely aggressve play calling at the bowl game is a perfect example of something Carr would never try...

This. I think Hoke went for it more times on 4th down this past season than I can remember happening the 20 years prior to his arrival.

It's just refreshing to see a coach play to win, rather than not to lose.

 

[jalopy]

well there is a saying in football, if you can successfully keep your opponent off balance with gimmicky plays, then you're a good team (Boise St is a fine example of that). When your opponents know exactly what the play is, and still can't stop it, then you're a great team (Alabama is a fine example of that).

I really resent the lack of reason and sensibility in a statement like that. Before you deify Alabama, keep in mind that they have lost two more home games than Michigan has in the last two years and needed politicking to even play in the NC game.

 

[themuzzer]

This. I think Hoke went for it more times on 4th down this past season than I can remember happening the 20 years prior to his arrival.

It's just refreshing to see a coach play to win, rather than not to lose.

I found it refreshing as well.....Although Carr in his last game against The Florida Gators and Timmy Tebow let it all air out.......Everyone knew it was his last game and the cuppoards were bare. We just went ape shit and threw the ole 3 yards and cloud of dust out the window and beat Florida. I wish Lloyd did it more often while in AA...I have a hunch Hoke will do it when necessary.

Give you one guess who the Defenseive Corrdinator for Florida was that year under Urban Meyer.......I think it was the 2007 gator or Capital one bowl.

 

[Coach_Ed_LPW]

It read the way I intended. Hoke is recruiting gets based on size first, talent second.

It's just so ridiculous that it's hard for people to believe you actually meant it.

 

[jalopy]

It's just so ridiculous that it's hard for people to believe you actually meant it.

Oh good, another football expert. Please enlighten us as to why you think height trumps talent for a WR.

 

[Coach_Ed_LPW]

Please enlighten us as to why you think height trumps talent for a WR.

I don't...and I don't think Hoke does either....and I don't think Hoke recruits height over talent...I think he recruits talented receivers who happen to be tall.

Oh good, another football expert.

Just because my opinions make sense doesn't make me an expert.

 

[jalopy]

I don't...and I don't think Hoke does either....and I don't think Hoke recruits height over talent...I think he recruits talented receivers who happen to be tall.

Well, back up your statement then. You ridiculed my opinion that Michigan should recruit talented receivers rather than focus on tall receivers. Show me the talent Hoke has brought in and the results he has to show for it. Or, you could provide some data that tall receivers are better prospects than shorter receivers.

Just because my opinions make sense doesn't make me an expert

Your opinions appear very valued by yourself. Congrats.