HOF Ballot Released

[soxfan1468927]

Hall of Stats: The Hall of Fame Case for Scott Rolen

I just realized that Scott Rolen didn't play a single inning at any other position but 3rd.

That's pretty crazy.

 

[navamind]

I just realized that Scott Rolen didn't play a single inning at any other position but 3rd.

That's pretty crazy.

Yep. Even Willie Mays played some 1st, SS and 3rd.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I definitely put weight on a player's peak. But I think that peak has to be sustained. That's why I compared Thome and Sosa's peaks.

Did Sosa have a better 5 year run? Yes.

Was it so much better than Thome's 12 year run that I would take the 5 years and give up the other 7? No.

again, i have Thome over sosa too... But i do think they are close... especially when Sosa's 5 year run rivals the best of all time players... with 3 top 10 HR seasons of all time and 2 top 25 RBI seasons... Thome was NOWHERE close...

It is not just about peak, it is about how good that peak was...Sosa, in his 5 year span could be seen as a top 10 player of all time... Thome cant...


again, this is all contingent on Bonds and Clemens making the HOF which allows the steroid players to get in...

 

[soxfan1468927]

again, i have Thome over sosa too... But i do think they are close... especially when Sosa's 5 year run rivals the best of all time players... with 3 top 10 HR seasons of all time and 2 top 25 RBI seasons... Thome was NOWHERE close...

It is not just about peak, it is about how good that peak was...Sosa, in his 5 year span could be seen as a top 10 player of all time... Thome cant...


again, this is all contingent on Bonds and Clemens making the HOF which allows the steroid players to get in...

Yes and I took into account how good Sosa's peak was. That's what the exercise of adding the 4000+ plate appearances does. It adds it to his peak to expand it to the length and level of Thome. Then asks the question of "would Sosa be better if you added those years" and the answer is absolutely.

I don't think he was a top 10 player all time in that peak. Considering his OPS+ in that timeframe is lower than the careers of Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Mike Trout, Rogers Hornsby, and Ty Cobb.

I understand that, but as I've said, my reasoning for not putting Sosa in, while putting in Thome/Bonds is simply because I believe those two to be better than Sosa to the point where I feel confident saying one is a HOFer and one is not.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Notable early in the voting. Edgar has already gained 3 votes. He netted +48 last year. Very small chance he gets in this year, but this should give him some momentum going into his final year on the ballot in 2019.

i am on the fence with edgar... I think he is one of those on the top of the fence, just don't know which way to push him... I lean NO... but i can easily see yes for him... But if it is a yes for him does it have to be a yes for Larry Walker??

not saying for now, only have 10 slots...

But i think it is an interesting way to vote is by grouping players

Thome/Sosa
Andruw Jones/Vizquel/Rolen
Walker/Martinez
Clemens/Bonds
Mussina/Schilling
Hoffman/Wagner
Vlad/Sheffield

The 2 i cant really find a good grouping for is Johan Santana and Chipper jones...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yes and I took into account how good Sosa's peak was. That's what the exercise of adding the 4000+ plate appearances does. It adds it to his peak to expand it to the length and level of Thome. Then asks the question of "would Sosa be better if you added those years" and the answer is absolutely.

I don't think he was a top 10 player all time in that peak. Considering his OPS+ in that timeframe is lower than the careers of Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Mike Trout, Rogers Hornsby, and Ty Cobb.

I understand that, but as I've said, my reasoning for not putting Sosa in, while putting in Thome/Bonds is simply because I believe those two to be better than Sosa to the point where I feel confident saying one is a HOFer and one is not.

whether he is top 10 or not, he is clearly an ALL TIME GREAT...

 

[navamind]

one year doesn't make him an all-time great. Gooden had one of the greatest pitching seasons of all-time, that doesn't mean he's an all-time great.

 

[soxfan1468927]

i am on the fence with edgar... I think he is one of those on the top of the fence, just don't know which way to push him... I lean NO... but i can easily see yes for him... But if it is a yes for him does it have to be a yes for Larry Walker??

not saying for now, only have 10 slots...

But i think it is an interesting way to vote is by grouping players

Thome/Sosa
Andruw Jones/Vizquel/Rolen
Walker/Martinez
Clemens/Bonds
Mussina/Schilling
Hoffman/Wagner
Vlad/Sheffield

The 2 i cant really find a good grouping for is Johan Santana and Chipper jones...

I'd vote Walker and Martinez, I'd vote Thome but not Sosa, I'd vote Jones/Rolen but not Vizquel.

 

[soxfan1468927]

whether he is top 10 or not, he is clearly an ALL TIME GREAT...

We look at two different things when it comes to value in offense though. Thome's 2002 season isn't that far off from Sosa's 2001 in my opinion. Thome's peak isn't that far off from Sosa's, and yet his was over twice as long. The gap in Sosa's production over Thome's is not enough to make up the gap in length. Simply put.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

We look at two different things when it comes to value in offense though. Thome's 2002 season isn't that far off from Sosa's 2001 in my opinion. Thome's peak isn't that far off from Sosa's, and yet his was over twice as long. The gap in Sosa's production over Thome's is not enough to make up the gap in length. Simply put.

Yea, I am not a huge OPS or OPS+ fan... I create my own stats when I need., where I put my own weights which measures better to how I value things.. I don't like how both over-exaggerate walks... Walks are very important.... don't get me wrong...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

one year doesn't make him an all-time great. Gooden had one of the greatest pitching seasons of all-time, that doesn't mean he's an all-time great.

who said one season makes an all time great??

 

[calsnowskier]

who said one season makes an all time great??

#BradyAndersonFanClub

 

[PEOPLESCHICKEN]

Two of the greatest players of all-time. Yes.

That is disappointing to hear

 

[bksballer89]

A new ballot is in

 

[msgkings322]

Vizquel was, in an extreme offensive era.

And we are?

A big part of that 'extreme offense' was PED fueled. Vizquel presumably was clean, and he's the exact reason why PEDs are bad for the game. A no doubt HOFer talent at short looks bad for not keeping up with the roiders.

Don't get me wrong, I am very much on the Bonds/Clemens bandwagon. They are no doubt HOFers. But the facts must be accounted for when looking at guys like Vizquel. Baseball is hitting, pitching, and defense. He was maybe the best ever at defense at his position, and his bat was very solid, not just a crappy hitter you had to play for the D. Put that guy in the damn Hall.

 

[soxfan1468927]

A big part of that 'extreme offense' was PED fueled. Vizquel presumably was clean, and he's the exact reason why PEDs are bad for the game. A no doubt HOFer talent at short looks bad for not keeping up with the roiders.

Don't get me wrong, I am very much on the Bonds/Clemens bandwagon. They are no doubt HOFers. But the facts must be accounted for when looking at guys like Vizquel. Baseball is hitting, pitching, and defense. He was maybe the best ever at defense at his position, and his bat was very solid, not just a crappy hitter you had to play for the D. Put that guy in the damn Hall.

1. I don't know that Vizquel was clean
2. Doesn't change what the offensive environment was. The reason for it is irrelevant to me as I'm focused 100% on the value of the player.
3. Yes, baseball is hitting, pitching, and defense, but I do not believe that all 3 factors are equal in value added to your team's success.
4. I do not believe there is any "maybe" about it. I think Ozzie Smith is the greatest defensive player at any position, in baseball history, let alone at shortstop.
5. He wasn't "very solid". He had 14 seasons where he had enough plate appearances to qualify for the batting title, and he was below the league average for a shortstop in 9 out of those 14 years.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Through 10 ballots:
Roger Clemens: 100%
Vladimir Guerrero: 100%
Jim Thome: 100%
Trevor Hoffman: 90%
Chipper Jones: 90%
Barry Bonds: 80%
Edgar Martinez: 70%
Mike Mussina: 70%
Omar Vizquel: 70%
Curt Schilling: 40%
Fred McGriff: 30%
Larry Walker: 30%
Andruw Jones: 20%
Manny Ramirez: 20%
Scott Rolen: 20%
Sammy Sosa: 20%
Jeff Kent: 10%
Billy Wagner: 10%

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Through 10 ballots:
Roger Clemens: 100%
Vladimir Guerrero: 100%
Jim Thome: 100%
Trevor Hoffman: 90%
Chipper Jones: 90%
Barry Bonds: 80%
Edgar Martinez: 70%
Mike Mussina: 70%
Omar Vizquel: 70%
Curt Schilling: 40%
Fred McGriff: 30%
Larry Walker: 30%
Andruw Jones: 20%
Manny Ramirez: 20%
Scott Rolen: 20%
Sammy Sosa: 20%
Jeff Kent: 10%
Billy Wagner: 10%

the 3 things I don't understand at all

1. how can Bonds be 80% when Clemens is 100%
2. How can Mussina be 70% AND Schilling be only 40%
3. Johan Santana hasn't even gotten ONE vote

the rest,even if I disagree, I can at least understand

I am sure as more ballots come in it will balance the votes better...

 

[soxfan1468927]

the 3 things I don't understand at all

1. how can Bonds be 80% when Clemens is 100%
2. How can Mussina be 70% AND Schilling be only 40%
3. Johan Santana hasn't even gotten ONE vote

the rest,even if I disagree, I can at least understand

I am sure as more ballots come in it will balance the votes better...

1. So the two guys who voted for Clemens and not Bonds were Sadiel Lebron and Jose de Jesus Ortiz. Lebron also voted for Sosa and he claimed that no one proved he did anything. He said a judge cleared Clemens. But he also voted for Manny. The other guy said he will continue to vote for Clemens because he has done everything to try to clear his name. He's also the same guy who didn't vote for Chipper because he said he didn't pass the "character" test.
2. It's completely non-baseball related I'm sure.
3. Yeah I was surprised as well. I think as the ballots roll in, guys will start to vote for him to make sure he doesn't fall below the 5% threshold. They'll want a few years of him on the ballot.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

1. So the two guys who voted for Clemens and not Bonds were Sadiel Lebron and Jose de Jesus Ortiz. Lebron also voted for Sosa and he claimed that no one proved he did anything. He said a judge cleared Clemens. But he also voted for Manny. The other guy said he will continue to vote for Clemens because he has done everything to try to clear his name. He's also the same guy who didn't vote for Chipper because he said he didn't pass the "character" test.
2. It's completely non-baseball related I'm sure.
3. Yeah I was surprised as well. I think as the ballots roll in, guys will start to vote for him to make sure he doesn't fall below the 5% threshold. They'll want a few years of him on the ballot.

I will be very disappointed with the voters if Mussina makes it and schilling doesn't... I will be more upset if Santana is a one and out...

and I hate Schilling, and love mussina...