HOF Ballot Released

[soxfan1468927]

I don't see it... especially when looking at best seasons... not just best season...

Sosa had 4 seasons of over 500 PA with over a .600 SLG, one over .700
THome had 3 seasons of over 500 PA with over a .600 SLG. never over .700


so in HR, SLG, BA, RBI Sosa was better at his best and had MORE ELITE seasons...

Sosa had MORE top 5 MVP rankings, MORE AS, actually WON an MVP...


I see the ONLY thing Thome to be outright better than sosa in was walks...


IMO, Sosa had the better peak, but Thome had the better longevity and was better in his worse seasons...

again, I would agree Thome over Sosa... But I do think if Thome is a HOFer, I just don't see an argument against Sosa, once you allow the taint in... Maybe not in the same year if you cant fit him, but he has to make it someday...

I think peak is just as important if not more important that whole career... and I feel like sosa is getting too much hate...

Thome had a peak from 1995-2007 where he hit .284/.416/.577/.993 over 7631 plate appearances.

He had just 2632 plate appearances out of that peak where he hit .255/.362/.491/.854

Sosa had a peak from 1998-2002 where he hit .306/.397/.659/1.046 over 3516 plate appearances.

He had 6380 plate appearances out of that peak where he hit .256/.314/.474/.788

Yes. Sosa had the better peak but it was less than half the length of Thome's. And his non peak seasons were worse and about 2.5 times the length.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Just to add...

in the 4 HOF tests Baseball references does

Test(Sosa, Thome)

HOF MONITOR( 202, 156) Sosa is better
HOF CAREER STANDARD( 52, 57) THOME IS BETTER
BLACK INK( 28,13) SOSA IS BETTER
GRAY INK( 138, 118) SOSA IS BETTER

 

[soxfan1468927]

Just to add...

in the 4 HOF tests Baseball references does

Test(Sosa, Thome)

HOF MONITOR( 202, 156) Sosa is better
HOF CAREER STANDARD( 52, 57) THOME IS BETTER
BLACK INK( 28,13) SOSA IS BETTER
GRAY INK( 138, 118) SOSA IS BETTER

And as those standards will spell out. This is to measure how likely a player is to make the HOF, not how deserving they are. I'm much more interested in how deserving they are.

Sosa is better than Chipper Jones on the HOF monitor while Willie McCovey is in the same ballpark as Michael Young.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

And as those standards will spell out. This is to measure how likely a player is to make the HOF, not how deserving they are. I'm much more interested in how deserving they are.

Sosa is better than Chipper Jones on the HOF monitor while Willie McCovey is in the same ballpark as Michael Young.

not using those tests as anything besides just showing that the 2 are close...

Sosa gets hate because he was a steroid user BUT he wasn't the BEST... He was at best the 4th best offensive steroid user of his era... AROD, Bonds, McGwire.

When you cheat, and you are caught cheating, and you are not the BEST cheater who was caught, it will hurt you more...

But if you take away the taint, which I guess you have to do once you accept the taint... I don't see a reason to hate on sosa...

 

[soxfan1468927]

not using those tests as anything besides just showing that the 2 are close...

Sosa gets hate because he was a steroid user BUT he wasn't the BEST... He was at best the 4th best offensive steroid user of his era... AROD, Bonds, McGwire.

When you cheat, and you are caught cheating, and you are not the BEST cheater who was caught, it will hurt you more...

But if you take away the taint, which I guess you have to do once you accept the taint... I don't see a reason to hate on sosa...

I haven't mentioned steroids once. Thome vs Sosa has nothing to do with steroids.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I haven't mentioned steroids once. Thome vs Sosa has nothing to do with steroids.

then I cant imagine you not being influenced if you think sosa is not a HOFer...

someone who has 3 top 10 HR seasons of all time HAS TO be in the HOF...

 

[soxfan1468927]

then I cant imagine you not being influenced if you think sosa is not a HOFer...

someone who has 3 top 10 HR seasons of all time HAS TO be in the HOF...

I disagree. He had a great 5 year peak and outside of that, the other 65% of his career, he wasn't very good. I do not care about steroids

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I disagree. He had a great 5 year peak and outside of that, the other 65% of his career, he wasn't very good. I do not care about steroids

so you care more about career than peak?? His peak was one of the best of all time... do you consider Sandy Koufax or Ralph Kiner HOFers?? yes, I know I am exaggerating to make my point....

 

[calsnowskier]

Bonds, Clemens are definitely's?

Yes

 

[bksballer89]

 

[navamind]

Bonds, Clemens are definitely's?

Two of the greatest players of all-time. Yes.

 

[soxfan1468927]

so you care more about career than peak?? His peak was one of the best of all time... do you consider Sandy Koufax or Ralph Kiner HOFers?? yes, I know I am exaggerating to make my point....

I have said that I think Sandy Koufax is the most overrated player in history. His peak, however, he was the best pitcher in baseball while Sammy wasn't the best player in baseball. And I probably would not have voted for Ralph Kiner.

But either way, it's not about career vs peak. Thome had a great peak and it was more than twice as long. Take Sosa's peak from 1998-2002 and add 4115 plate appearances. That's about 6 extra seasons based on Sosa's average plate appearances per season from 1998-2002. 6 extra seasons of a .940 OPS, 31 HRs per year, and 100 RBI per year. You would be left with the peak that Thome had. So the question would be, if you took Sosa's peak, and added those 6 years, would he be a better player?

I think the answer is without a doubt.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I wonder what Jeff Kent did to lose a vote, considering only 8 players got votes.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Notable early in the voting. Edgar has already gained 3 votes. He netted +48 last year. Very small chance he gets in this year, but this should give him some momentum going into his final year on the ballot in 2019.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I have said that I think Sandy Koufax is the most overrated player in history. His peak, however, he was the best pitcher in baseball while Sammy wasn't the best player in baseball. And I probably would not have voted for Ralph Kiner.

But either way, it's not about career vs peak. Thome had a great peak and it was more than twice as long. Take Sosa's peak from 1998-2002 and add 4115 plate appearances. That's about 6 extra seasons based on Sosa's average plate appearances per season from 1998-2002. 6 extra seasons of a .940 OPS, 31 HRs per year, and 100 RBI per year. You would be left with the peak that Thome had. So the question would be, if you took Sosa's peak, and added those 6 years, would he be a better player?

I think the answer is without a doubt.

Yea, personally I care more about a players best seasons than their career... Saying you would not have voted for Kiner shows me that we look at this totally differently...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I wonder what Jeff Kent did to lose a vote, considering only 8 players got votes.

i don't think he deserves it anyway... wont be upset when he is off the ballot...

 

[soxfan1468927]

Yea, personally I care more about a players best seasons than their career... Saying you would not have voted for Kiner shows me that we look at this totally differently...

I definitely put weight on a player's peak. But I think that peak has to be sustained. That's why I compared Thome and Sosa's peaks.

Did Sosa have a better 5 year run? Yes.

Was it so much better than Thome's 12 year run that I would take the 5 years and give up the other 7? No.

 

[soxfan1468927]

i don't think he deserves it anyway... wont be upset when he is off the ballot...

Neither do I. I was just curious

 

[navamind]

http://www.hallofstats.com/articles/the-hall-of-fame-case-for-scott-rolen

 

[navamind]

Hall of Stats: The Hall of Fame Case for Scott Rolen

my biggest concern for Rolen is that he's on a loaded ballot and he might not stay on.