Heyman: Rob Manfred Will ‘Seriously Consider’ Reinstating Pete Rose

[DragonfromTO]

Well for something that was completely ok up until they cleared it with the union, a lot of guys have gone to great lengths to say they did not do it. How many times has Bonds' buddy gone to prison for refusing to testify now?

I bet you could accuse an MLB player of a lot of things that he would be willing to go to great lengths to deny but aren't against any MLB rules, don't you think?

 

[Cedrique]

I can't think of anything that they would do related to their performance on the field that is not against mlb rules they would continuously lie about and deny to the extent that players have about steroids.

 

[calsnowskier]

Well for something that was completely ok up until they cleared it with the union, a lot of guys have gone to great lengths to say they did not do it. How many times has Bonds' buddy gone to prison for refusing to testify now?

Where did I say it was OK?

I am just saying there is no equating the two. One of the offenses is considered the cardinal sin and has already kept HOFers out of the hall. The other was only made against the rules in the last 10 years or so (after Bonds and Clemens). Further, the defined consequence for the first offense for one is permanent disqualification while the current consequence for the first offense of the other is 50 days.

You really equate the two?

 

[Cedrique]

Where did I say it was OK?

I am just saying there is no equating the two. One of the offenses is considered the cardinal sin and has already kept HOFers out of the hall. The other was only made against the rules in the last 10 years or so (after Bonds and Clemens). Further, the defined consequence for the first offense for one is permanent disqualification while the current consequence for the first offense of the other is 50 days.

You really equate the two?

No, I don't equate the two. And I agree Rose did something that was clearly illegal and guys that used steroids did something that I guess you would say was "frowned upon", if it wasn't illegal.

But I will say it's hard to attack Rose's lack of integrity for being arrogant and lying and withholding information and at the same time defend guys who have lied and evaded questions about steroids. Clemens and Bonds have been just as hardheaded as Pete Rose by continuing to lie about steroid use.

 

[calsnowskier]

No, I don't equate the two. And I agree Rose did something that was clearly illegal and guys that used steroids did something that I guess you would say was "frowned upon", if it wasn't illegal.

But I will say it's hard to attack Rose's lack of integrity for being arrogant and lying and withholding information and at the same time defend guys who have lied and evaded questions about steroids. Clemens and Bonds have been just as hardheaded as Pete Rose by continuing to lie about steroid use.

Ok, I see your point.

I know you weren't necessarily singling me out, but I have never taken that tact on the argument.

 

[GenJac]

Let me start by saying everyone has their own opinion regarding this and that is all it is. None of us know all of the facts regarding Rose and his betting, just like none of us know all of the facts regarding Joe Jackson.

Joe Jackson had the best batting average out of both teams during the 1919 World Series but was said to have accepted money all though it was never proven.

The Hall of Fame has many shady characters in there from Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, and Roger Hornsby were all card caring members of the KKK. Then you have Ruth and Mantle who were two of the biggest drunks to ever play the game. I could keep going because this is a pretty long list but the point I am try to make is this. Here is rule number 5 for BBWAA Election rules: " Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

With this being one of the requirements most of the members should not even be in the Hall of Fame then.

As far as Pete Rose goes I would not let him in the Hall of Fame until they put Joe Jackson in there.

As for any of the roid boys none of them should be allowed in the Hall as they cheated to achieve the records they broke.

These are just my opinions as I know you all have yours to.

 

[Erie Warrior]

Let me start by saying everyone has their own opinion regarding this and that is all it is. None of us know all of the facts regarding Rose and his betting, just like none of us know all of the facts regarding Joe Jackson.

Joe Jackson had the best batting average out of both teams during the 1919 World Series but was said to have accepted money all though it was never proven.

The Hall of Fame has many shady characters in there from Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, and Roger Hornsby were all card caring members of the KKK. Then you have Ruth and Mantle who were two of the biggest drunks to ever play the game. I could keep going because this is a pretty long list but the point I am try to make is this. Here is rule number 5 for BBWAA Election rules: " Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

With this being one of the requirements most of the members should not even be in the Hall of Fame then.

As far as Pete Rose goes I would not let him in the Hall of Fame until they put Joe Jackson in there.

As for any of the roid boys none of them should be allowed in the Hall as they cheated to achieve the records they broke.

These are just my opinions as I know you all have yours to.

Very well said. I totally agree about Jackson.

 

[calsnowskier]

Let me start by saying everyone has their own opinion regarding this and that is all it is. None of us know all of the facts regarding Rose and his betting, just like none of us know all of the facts regarding Joe Jackson.

Joe Jackson had the best batting average out of both teams during the 1919 World Series but was said to have accepted money all though it was never proven.

The Hall of Fame has many shady characters in there from Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, and Roger Hornsby were all card caring members of the KKK. Then you have Ruth and Mantle who were two of the biggest drunks to ever play the game. I could keep going because this is a pretty long list but the point I am try to make is this. Here is rule number 5 for BBWAA Election rules: " Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

With this being one of the requirements most of the members should not even be in the Hall of Fame then.

As far as Pete Rose goes I would not let him in the Hall of Fame until they put Joe Jackson in there.

As for any of the roid boys none of them should be allowed in the Hall as they cheated to achieve the records they broke.

These are just my opinions as I know you all have yours to.

Idiot!!

You are wrong!

 

[navamind]

PLEASE LOVE MY PETE ROSE

Ftfy.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

The Decision
Rule 21(d)(2) and the Giamatti Agreement


The other legal reviews Manfred has pledged to undertake include Rule 21 of baseball's constitution, specifically Section (d), Subsection (2).

That rule was written in the wake of the Chicago "Black Sox" scandal of 1919. Professional gamblers paid off a number of players from the Chicago White Sox to throw games and allow the Cincinnati Reds to take the 1919 World Series. (That included all-time great "Shoeless" Joe Jackson, although supporters say that while he took the money, he played his best in the series.)

Horrified at what had become of the nation's pastime, the owners of the teams at the time appointed former federal judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis as the sport's first commissioner. He immediately banned the players involved and created the rule that stands now. In fact, a sign with the rule is posted in every minor and major league clubhouse in the nation.

In the former Reds clubhouse in Riverfront Stadium, the sign hung near the players' mailboxes, and close to the clubhouse phone, in a hallway that separated a group of lockers. This was a location where Rose would have seen it every day. Currently it hangs in a frame as one enters the Reds clubhouse at Great American Ball Park.

The rule includes no provision for appeal or reinstatement, apart from a standard grievance process through the contract with the players' union that is addressed elsewhere (and that would not cover non-players such as managers).

"And to me, being put on the permanently ineligible list means you are there for life," said Dowd.

Manfred also said he wants to review the agreement Giamatti and Rose reached in 1989. That five-page document states the specifics of the investigation and outlined Rose's chances to respond. It also clearly states that "the Commissioner will not make any formal findings or determinations on any matter including without limitation the allegation that Peter Edward Rose bet on any Major League Baseball game."

Given that Giamatti explicitly said at the press conference announcing the deal that he felt Rose had indeed bet on baseball, Rose may have a slender opening all these years later, according to one legal expert.

"Major League Baseball made a promise not to issue any formal findings, but you could make the argument on paper that baseball has nonetheless issued formal findings throughout the years, between what Giamatti said as well as Dowd's statements that Rose was guilty as charged," said Jeffrey Standen, dean of the Chase School of Law at Northern Kentucky University. Standen published a paper in 2010 that argued for Rose's reinstatement.

"Basically, Rose got nothing in return for this deal and MLB abrogated its promise to him," Standen said.

26 Years Later
Dowd Report Stands Test of Time


As for the Dowd report itself, it came as a result of a three-month investigation into Rose's gambling, culminating in the 225-page report and supporting documentation. Dowd and his two detectives interviewed 110 witnesses and collected thousands of pages of documents all while battling lawyers and banks.

"That report was rock solid; there are no holes there," said noted Harvard University law professor Alan Dershowitz, who argued on behalf of Major League Baseball in a mock trial televised by ESPN in 2003. Dershowitz said he spent several weeks going over the report and documentation to prepare for the mock trial, which he wound up losing as the mock jury voted 8-4 to reinstate Rose.

"Even though that was the result, I can say that the legal evidence in this case is overwhelming and there is no way to argue the merits and facts of the case if you are Pete Rose," Dershowitz said. "If I were him, he needs to basically ask for compassion. Reading all that documentation, there is no way to get around what he did and how it impacted the game."

Yet as influential as they were, Dowd's findings were never fully published until 1999, when the University of Mississippi law school printed all 225 pages in its law journal.

"I remember reading that anytime a sportswriter wrote a column saying Pete got a raw deal, that John Dowd would mail him a Xerox copy of the report ... and, lo and behold, a week later, there would be a column retracting the previous position," said University of Mississippi law professor Ronald Rychlak, who wrote the introduction for that issue. "That's why we published it. And I remember trying to be balanced and fair when I wrote what I did, but you can't come away from reading that report and not have a strong position."

Those who went through the investigation process agree. Gioiosa acknowledges that Dowd "certainly did his homework."

"All Mr. Dowd did was lay out the facts, and they were pretty much all right," he said.

Janszen says that he was initially leery of Dowd and his investigators, but the process produced "the truth and all the facts."

"The title of that report should be integrity," Janszen said. "It is as accurate now as it was then. You could not find better men than the ones who did this. And people need to know the truth of what went on."

Dowd says that not only was the report the subject of follow-up investigations by major news outlets such as Sports Illustrated and The New York Times, but by subsequent MLB commissioner Bud Selig. In fact, Selig was strongly considering reinstating Rose in the early 2000s.

The efforts to reinstate Rose included public and private lobbying by Hall of Famers and former teammates such as Phillies great Mike Schmidt and Reds standout Joe Morgan on Rose's behalf, as well as a face-to-face meeting between Rose and Selig in 2003.

But Dowd says Selig used his law firm to once again to vet the veracity of the initial 1989 report as part of that review. Selig, who retired as commissioner earlier this year after 23 years, declined comment through his office in Milwaukee.

"They have all been hoping for some crack in the dam, but there aren't any," Dowd said. The report is "something I'm proud of."

Selig in the end decided not to reinstate Rose. At the time, a story published by The Enquirer indicated that a bank had just foreclosed on Rose's California condominium, highlighting Rose's ongoing financial troubles. And Selig was apparently unhappy that Rose had showed up in Cooperstown during Hall of Fame induction week to sell his new book.

"I'm not particularly proud of the result as this is an incredibly tragic story," Dowd said. "But at least it stands as an example for all of baseball, and hopefully for all time."

Pete Rosefesto

 

[GenJac]

Well I'd just like to see what he had to make him think he was "close". Is Dowd still alive?

Peter Dowd is pretty much a person-non-grata in MLB. The last few times he had anything to say to the press about Pete Rose, MLB released official statements distancing themselves from Dowd and recommending Dowd keep his mouth shut. Iran special prosecutor Lawrence Walsh called the Dowd report a sham - too many jumping to conclusions and absolutely no proof of baseball gambling that would hold up in court. It makes you wonder why Giamotti (a mafia stooge trying to enforce Rose's non-baseball gambling debts to the mob?) kept the investigation going months after finding nothing, when the closing of the case with a "we didn't find anything" would give baseball a clean bill of health. When that happened I said at the time "Somebody in baseball is after Rose". I assumed at the time the somebody was the same guy who, within months of taking office suspended Rose for 30 days (a message from the mob?)

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Peter Dowd is pretty much a person-non-grata in MLB. The last few times he had anything to say to the press about Pete Rose, MLB released official statements distancing themselves from Dowd and recommending Dowd keep his mouth shut. Iran special prosecutor Lawrence Walsh called the Dowd report a sham - too many jumping to conclusions and absolutely no proof of baseball gambling that would hold up in court. It makes you wonder why Giamotti (a mafia stooge trying to enforce Rose's non-baseball gambling debts to the mob?) kept the investigation going months after finding nothing, when the closing of the case with a "we didn't find anything" would give baseball a clean bill of health. When that happened I said at the time "Somebody in baseball is after Rose". I assumed at the time the somebody was the same guy who, within months of taking office suspended Rose for 30 days (a message from the mob?)

I suppose anything's possible, but given MLB's history and aversion to gambling, I think the notion that MLB acted as an indirect collector for the mob seems, well, far fetched as fuck.

I also think if that were the case, Rose would leak it.

 

[calsnowskier]

Peter Dowd is pretty much a person-non-grata in MLB. The last few times he had anything to say to the press about Pete Rose, MLB released official statements distancing themselves from Dowd and recommending Dowd keep his mouth shut. Iran special prosecutor Lawrence Walsh called the Dowd report a sham - too many jumping to conclusions and absolutely no proof of baseball gambling that would hold up in court. It makes you wonder why Giamotti (a mafia stooge trying to enforce Rose's non-baseball gambling debts to the mob?) kept the investigation going months after finding nothing, when the closing of the case with a "we didn't find anything" would give baseball a clean bill of health. When that happened I said at the time "Somebody in baseball is after Rose". I assumed at the time the somebody was the same guy who, within months of taking office suspended Rose for 30 days (a message from the mob?)

If you are in the mob, and a bank manager owes you money, you don't work with the president of the bank to get the manager fired. You work with the manager to skim money out of the vault.

Your theory makes no sense.

 

[Cedrique]

Sounds unlikely, but it's possible that if he screwed over the Gambinos on the payment for the hit on Thurman Munson they would retaliate by destroying his legacy.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Peter Dowd is pretty much a person-non-grata in MLB. The last few times he had anything to say to the press about Pete Rose, MLB released official statements distancing themselves from Dowd and recommending Dowd keep his mouth shut. Iran special prosecutor Lawrence Walsh called the Dowd report a sham - too many jumping to conclusions and absolutely no proof of baseball gambling that would hold up in court. It makes you wonder why Giamotti (a mafia stooge trying to enforce Rose's non-baseball gambling debts to the mob?) kept the investigation going months after finding nothing, when the closing of the case with a "we didn't find anything" would give baseball a clean bill of health. When that happened I said at the time "Somebody in baseball is after Rose". I assumed at the time the somebody was the same guy who, within months of taking office suspended Rose for 30 days (a message from the mob?)

Have you seen any actual evidence whatsoever that suggests that Giamatti was a "mafia stooge"?

And you meant John Dowd I'm assuming, not Peter

 

[StanMarsh51]

Let me start by saying everyone has their own opinion regarding this and that is all it is. None of us know all of the facts regarding Rose and his betting, just like none of us know all of the facts regarding Joe Jackson.

Joe Jackson had the best batting average out of both teams during the 1919 World Series but was said to have accepted money all though it was never proven.

The Hall of Fame has many shady characters in there from Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, and Roger Hornsby were all card caring members of the KKK. Then you have Ruth and Mantle who were two of the biggest drunks to ever play the game. I could keep going because this is a pretty long list but the point I am try to make is this. Here is rule number 5 for BBWAA Election rules: " Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

With this being one of the requirements most of the members should not even be in the Hall of Fame then.

As far as Pete Rose goes I would not let him in the Hall of Fame until they put Joe Jackson in there.

As for any of the roid boys none of them should be allowed in the Hall as they cheated to achieve the records they broke.

These are just my opinions as I know you all have yours to.

Although with Jackson, only certain games were to be thrown in the 1919 series...overall in the series Jackson hit well, but in the games that were to be thrown, he struggled offensively and made some costly misplays in the field.

 

[Nasty_Magician]

Heard him on the radio today and one thing that stood out to me was he was very adamant about leaving the DH in the AL and not in the NL, sounded like as long as he's in charge this will not change. Good to know.

 

[calsnowskier]

Heard him on the radio today and one thing that stood out to me was he was very adamant about leaving the DH in the AL and not in the NL, sounded like as long as he's in charge this will not change. Good to know.

Would rather the DH get abolished completely, but I know that aint happening anytime soon, so I will take the status quo in the meantime...

 

[GenJac]

What's the line on whether Pete gets reinstated? Anybody wanna bet?

 

[calsnowskier]

What's the line on whether Pete gets reinstated? Anybody wanna bet?

8,000,000,000/1

I am trying to get the 8B together right now. That is free money, right there.