Gregg Williams' Instructions to Injure Niners

[MHSL82]

Wanted to also add, if he came back: There's no support group, there's no whistleblowers (you'll lose your job at least for the rest of the season), and face it, people like Payton will turn their eye. There will just be more emphasis on not getting caught... and oh yeah, no cameras or recorders.

 

[MHSL82]

I find it ironic that we were the ones to take their player out and if they had taken KW out, like they wanted to, we may have been in the SB - unless Walker took over on punt return duties and fumbled. And of course, the obligatory mention of the offense not being good enough to make the fumbles not matter.

 

[tallglassofwater007]

I'll guarantee you that in the history of sports if someone knows their opponent is injured they will attack that weakness. Doesn't make it right but it's something that will get exploited. And as long as you don't say anything then it's ok?

Attacking a weakness is one thing, but going out and injuring on purpose (for money) is different. If I am playing baseball and a guy has a hurt rib and can't turn on the ball fast enough, I am going to pitch him inside. If a QB is hobbled but out there playing, I am gonna hit him and make him hurt. Like the Niners did to Big Ben. These are attacking weakness. Now if Aldon Smith gets around the corner and dives into Big Ben's leg because it is hurt...that is the difference.

The point is, yeah guys attack a weakness. If you are out there playing then you are fair game to be treated the same way as everyone else on the field. But to go hurt Crabtrees ACL?? Last I checked, his leg was fine. You aren't attacking his weakness.... that's just a human weakness and you are creating injury.

I will even give you the Williams concussion. Fuck him...if he is out there playing then hit him hard and ring his bell and see if he is tough enough to keep playing. But to tell them to attack his head specifically?? Or to go after Gores head, (no recent concussions to speak of) even telling guys that nobody leaves a pile until everybody has hit him in the head... that's bad form and fuck you. (not you...you as in Williams)

 

[threelittleturds]

I imagine this sort of mentality existed forever, and you can watch the replays of Montana's elbow injury and you can tell that they were trying to injure him and they succeeded.

So, to demonize Greg Williams because of this isn't exactly fair, or to make him the face of this approach.

Yeah, he's an asshole for trying to injure every 49ers player he could in the playoffs, and I'll be surprised if he ever coaches in the NFL again. I guess that is the punishment he deserves since the NFL is trying to go away from this stuff... but I can't act like he was the only guy who ever did or said stuff like this. The Saints certainly aren't the only ones who tried to injure 49ers.. I get the feeling that in every Seahawks and Cardinals game they are trying to injure 49ers players.

 

[erckm510]

Bill Simmons does a much better job of what I was trying to say.

The murky water of chastizing and celebrating NFL violence - Grantland

 

[MHSL82]

I imagine this sort of mentality existed forever, and you can watch the replays of Montana's elbow injury and you can tell that they were trying to injure him and they succeeded.

So, to demonize Greg Williams because of this isn't exactly fair, or to make him the face of this approach.

Yeah, he's an asshole for trying to injure every 49ers player he could in the playoffs, and I'll be surprised if he ever coaches in the NFL again. I guess that is the punishment he deserves since the NFL is trying to go away from this stuff... but I can't act like he was the only guy who ever did or said stuff like this. The Saints certainly aren't the only ones who tried to injure 49ers.. I get the feeling that in every Seahawks and Cardinals game they are trying to injure 49ers players.

Yep, and everytime they catch someone they should punish them. They should look into other programs to see where it's happening, but punishing a guy for what he did is not the same as saying he's the only one who's done it. And when he tried to injure our guys to create an unfair victory, I don't care about fairness. I'm putting him as the face of all that is bad with the bounty problem. You're welcome, Payton.

 

[MHSL82]

Bill Simmons does a much better job of what I was trying to say.

The murky water of chastizing and celebrating NFL violence - Grantland

I see his (and by extension, yours) point, but I don't see what else can be done. Maybe the Commissioner should step down for not reacting quicker. But as far as Williams and the Saints, what else could happen? Should he be given a pass? (I know you and Simmons are not suggesting this) Should the punishment be lesser and therefore encouraging continuation? Should the punishment be stronger and therefore more 'hypocritical'? Should we say, fine, the next one will get punished? Should he say that this has gone on for too long, let's just not look at it? I saw Jay Feely saying that this was all to stop future litigation against the NFL. Ok, I accept that Goodell's actions now are not pure and altruistic, but what else should he do? Accrue more litigation? State that safety is not an issue? Sure, we'd all like him to be punished and we know the NFL is greedy, but to stop preventing further injuries? The Rams players may or may not injure fewer players without Williams. If they uniformly go after this, this sends a message.

Oh and the line is clear. This is like killing a person who steals your car with no weapon and then saying, where's the line?! Here's the line - No naming names or body parts. No encouraging injuries, specifically to those who have no history (injuring Crabtree's ACL? That's not a weakness, that's creating injury). No putting money or team accolades for injuries. Hard hitting, winning, and perseverence is ok. But no post game speeches on how great it was to re-injure Peyton's neck.

Don't people see the credence for slippery slope arguments when something that crossed the line is defended? The line is pushed. If Williams isn't made an example of or punished severely, when something else happens, people will say "that wasn't any worse than what Williams did." Williams was punished severely, but all this defense coming out of the woodwork is lessening it, in a way. Softening it up for when it happens again and we again say that people turned a blind eye to it. Stare at it, punish it. That's how you start to stop it. Yes, it won't happen overnight. And no, this will not turn into flag football. That's hyperbole. It may lose it's viewership a bit, though.

 

[erckm510]

I see his (and by extension, yours) point, but I don't see what else can be done. Maybe the Commissioner should step down for not reacting quicker. But as far as Williams and the Saints, what else could happen? Should he be given a pass? (I know you and Simmons are not suggesting this) Should the punishment be lesser and therefore encouraging continuation? Should the punishment be stronger and therefore more 'hypocritical'? Should we say the next one will get punished? Should he say that this has gone on for too long, let's just not look at it? I saw Jay Feely saying that this was all to stop future litigation against the NFL. Ok, I accept that Goodell's actions now are not pure and altruistic, but what else should he do. Accrue more litigation. State that safety is not an issue. Sure, we'd all like him to be punished and we know the NFL is greedy, but to stop preventing further injuries? The Rams players may or may not injure fewer players without Williams. If they uniformly go after this, this sends a message.

Oh and the line is clear. - No naming names or body parts. No encouraging injuries, specifically to those who have no history (injuring Crabtree's ACL? That's not a weakness, that's creating injury). No putting money or team accolades for injuries. Hard hitting, winning, and perseverence is ok. But no post game speeches on how great it was to re-injure Peyton's neck.

Don't people see the credence for slippery slope arguments when something that crossed the line is defended? The line is pushed. If Williams isn't made an example of or punished severely, when something else happens, people will say "that wasn't any worse than what Williams did."

It's clear for the public but it isn't so clear in the locker room. Discreetly this stuff will still happen. Coaches and players will do a better job to not get caught. However I also think that there will be quite a few teams that will follow the right way because of the changes that will be made.

And I don't think anyone is defending Williams. What he said is sick. The point is that for people who actually play the game of football it's relatively normal. They might not like it but they do accept it as a fact of playing football. They're the ones that have to change their mentality.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

That Simmons piece is total nonsense, IMO. He is equating big hits with cheap stuff like twisting ankles and heads after the play. Two different things....and while the league is trying to get rid of both, the Saints are in trouble because of the latter, not former. The big hits are certainly much more of a gray area, and much tougher to stop longterm. The cheap tactics can be stopped basically today.

 

[mysfit]

No question he should be banned. But I think it's naive to say that it doesn't happen in other locker rooms. The Saints just happened to be caught.

I don't.

I think there are a lot fewer coaches engaging in this kind of thing with targeting players for specific injuries and offering a bounty than you do.

Just have to agree to disagree.

Pretty damned sad commentary on where we are as a country when you think this kind of thing goes on to the extent you seem to think it does.

 

[ChrisPozz]

Cam Inman:

49ers WR Kyle Williams on Gregg Williams' speech: "I'm not going to talk about it at all"

 

[erckm510]

I don't.

I think there are a lot fewer coaches engaging in this kind of thing with targeting players for specific injuries and offering a bounty than you do.

Just have to agree to disagree.

Pretty damned sad commentary on where we are as a country when you think this kind of thing goes on to the extent you seem to think it does.

So what happens in the NFL locker room is a commentary on society in America??? Think that's going a tad too far.

And I think players have their own bounty pool that coaches may know about but not participate to the extent Williams did.

 

[mem49er]

Cam Inman:

49ers WR Kyle Williams on Gregg Williams' speech: "I'm not going to talk about it at all"

Best answer he could give.

 

[ChrisPozz]

49ers’ Whitner thinks Williams’ actions were “really disgusting” | ProFootballTalk

 

[Bemular]

49ers’ Whitner thinks Williams’ actions were “really disgusting” | ProFootballTalk

Excellent Read! Great comments by Whitner

 

[FourBeeDen]

49ers’ Whitner thinks Williams’ actions were “really disgusting” | ProFootballTalk

Here is the Marvez article referenced in the ProFootball piece

 

[ChrisPozz]

Kyle Williams' dad: 'Closer to criminal act' - NFC West Blog - ESPN

 

[bvanthielriceyoung]

By far the comments about Crabtree and the ACL are the most disturbing.

 

[tallglassofwater007]

Bill Simmons article is nonsense. He is trying to say that Williams is using coaches talk and we still have to decipher it?? There is nothing to decipher. He says point blank to go for Crabtrees outside ACL and to twist up Vernon's ankles in the piles.

He makes some good points about Goodell and the league not knowing exactly what it wants when it comes to hits, but that has nothing to do with Williams putting out bounties on players. The league and Goodell knew exactly what they wanted when it came to bounties, and it went as far as sending out posters and memos for every team to put in the locker room not once, but twice a year for the last 3 years and they still kept doing it.

 

[imac_21]

There are some good points in here from both sides. One thing I have seen mentioned yet is that the Saints were told explicitly before the playoffs that and all acts that even looked like they were part of a bounty program needed to stop immediately.

The thing here that really disgusts me is the idea of going after Crabtree's ACL, Smith's head, Gore's head and Davis' ankles.

It's one thing to talk about being aware of a player who is injured. If Iupati had a leg injury and the Saints were discussing legal ways to take advantage of that, it's one thing.

But to my knowledge, Crabtree didn't have an ACL injury at the time, and doesn't have a history of ACL injuries. Ditto for Davis' ankle, and Smith and Gore's concussion history.

This wasn't a case of focusing on a pre-existing injury, this was trying to create serious injuries.