Flyers Fan Mumbles and Grumbles

[lasgop8]

Can you guys tell me what you see from him offensively that makes you think this?

 

[awaz]

Can you guys tell me what you see from him offensively that makes you think this?

you can see some of his offensive creativity and skill in spurts.. but the kid is 20 years old, not every 20 year old comes in and dominates right away.. but in flyer-land they pretty much have to or they get traded.

i'd be willing to bet a very large amount of money, that if the flyers traded couturier, even if it was for a 'stud' dman, philly would be outraged less than 2 years later because the stud dman would be overpaid and couturier would be lighting it up at a very palatable contract.

the flyers will never win a stanley cup if they continue to give up their picks and prospects for overpaid middle-aged veterans when they could have had similar production from young guys on ELC's or 2nd contracts. it is not a shock, or a coincidence, that the best contract on the flyers roster, BY FAR, is claude giroux, a flyers draft pick.

 

[awaz]

you can see some of his offensive creativity and skill in spurts.. but the kid is 20 years old, not every 20 year old comes in and dominates right away.. but in flyer-land they pretty much have to or they get traded.

i'd be willing to bet a very large amount of money, that if the flyers traded couturier, even if it was for a 'stud' dman, philly would be outraged less than 2 years later because the stud dman would be overpaid and couturier would be lighting it up at a very palatable contract.

the flyers will never win a stanley cup if they continue to give up their picks and prospects for overpaid middle-aged veterans when they could have had similar production from young guys on ELC's or 2nd contracts. it is not a shock, or a coincidence, that the best contract on the flyers roster, BY FAR, is claude giroux, a flyers draft pick.

plus, if you trade couturier for a dman.. for a legit dman it will take more than that, maybe couturier+read and a pick or two, or couturier, ghost, and a first.. how are you replacing couturier? assuming briere is bought out, you're going to roll in to next season with giroux, schenn, laughton, and talbot as your C's? that's a recipe for disaster. if laughton exceeds every single expectation put on him, he'll be similar to what couturier was his rookie year.. schenn has yet to prove any offensive consistency and you'll end up in the same boat as this season.. if giroux/voracek aren't scoring 2-3 goals per game, the goaltending is an afterthought because they aren't getting enough goal support anyway

sure couturier might not be an offensive dynamo, but the flyers don't have the offensive firepower to spend on improving the defense like a lot of people seem to think.. you have to keep guys who 'have the potential' to make a big difference offensively

 

[lasgop8]

you can see some of his offensive creativity and skill in spurts.. but the kid is 20 years old, not every 20 year old comes in and dominates right away.. but in flyer-land they pretty much have to or they get traded.

i'd be willing to bet a very large amount of money, that if the flyers traded couturier, even if it was for a 'stud' dman, philly would be outraged less than 2 years later because the stud dman would be overpaid and couturier would be lighting it up at a very palatable contract.

the flyers will never win a stanley cup if they continue to give up their picks and prospects for overpaid middle-aged veterans when they could have had similar production from young guys on ELC's or 2nd contracts. it is not a shock, or a coincidence, that the best contract on the flyers roster, BY FAR, is claude giroux, a flyers draft pick.

There are several and i mean several 18 and 19 and 20 years olds around the league with way more offensive upside than cooter so his age isnt really a factor to me hockey has been getting younger and younger over the past several years. That being said i am not looking to trade him for a over priced nopr overaged Dman i want to trade him for bobby ryan or a guy like that.

 

[lasgop8]

plus, if you trade couturier for a dman.. for a legit dman it will take more than that, maybe couturier+read and a pick or two, or couturier, ghost, and a first.. how are you replacing couturier? assuming briere is bought out, you're going to roll in to next season with giroux, schenn, laughton, and talbot as your C's? that's a recipe for disaster. if laughton exceeds every single expectation put on him, he'll be similar to what couturier was his rookie year.. schenn has yet to prove any offensive consistency and you'll end up in the same boat as this season.. if giroux/voracek aren't scoring 2-3 goals per game, the goaltending is an afterthought because they aren't getting enough goal support anyway

sure couturier might not be an offensive dynamo, but the flyers don't have the offensive firepower to spend on improving the defense like a lot of people seem to think.. you have to keep guys who 'have the potential' to make a big difference offensively

Cooter doesnt have the greatest shot nor is he a very good stick handler nor does he have that many moves (dekes) so i dont beleive he will be as good offensively as people think and he doesnt really check anyone he doesnt play a grinding game and if we could get a star in this league i wouldnt minde getting rid of him but only for a star.

 

[awaz]

There are several and i mean several 18 and 19 and 20 years olds around the league with way more offensive upside than cooter so his age isnt really a factor to me hockey has been getting younger and younger over the past several years. That being said i am not looking to trade him for a over priced nopr overaged Dman i want to trade him for bobby ryan or a guy like that.

i'd be less irritated in that case.

still would rather keep couturier though.

but i'd be interested in who the 'several' 18-19-20 year olds that are better than couturier.. yakupov, huberdeau, and gallagher are the only 3 in the top 100 in points this season.. yakupov and huberdeau were 1st overall picks, and the habs got lucky with gallagher (147th overall pick)..

brandon saad (props to my hs ) was just outside the top 100 and he's 20

so i'll give you 4 guys. but yakupov and hubereau both play on their team's top line and on their teams top PP unit, and none of them are on their teams #1 PK unit.

 

[awaz]

in yakupov, saad, and gallagher's case they also play with guys significantly more talented than max talbot and jay rosehill.

the panthers suck, i dont know how huburdeau does what he does.

 

[lasgop8]

in yakupov, saad, and gallagher's case they also play with guys significantly more talented than max talbot and jay rosehill.

the panthers suck, i dont know how huburdeau does what he does.

In those 4 guys case the play with the first line because they are good enough offensively to play on the 1st line. None of those guys teams would have cooter on the 1st line he's just not good enough.

 

[awaz]

In those 4 guys case the play with the first line because they are good enough offensively to play on the 1st line. None of those guys teams would have cooter on the 1st line he's just not good enough.

i'm not sure that's true.. RNH is pretty good in edmonton, but i think couturier could compete with him for 1st line time there.. in florida he'd probably be a good 2C (behind huberdeau, with weiss moving to the wing if he's ever healthy).. canadiens, outside of plekanec aren't real strong down the middle.. and you'd be hard pressed to find C's that could play top 6 in chicago

IMO, if briere is bought out as expected, couturier has just as much talent/potential as schenn to play 2C for the flyers

also, on a team that is hurting for forwards that can play defense, couturier leaving would be a big hole.. even if you filled it with a defensive specialist, there goes even more scoring depth (even if it is just potential) that the flyers dont have.

plus, where do you come up w/ the money to trade couturier (1.6) for bobby ryan (5mil).. couturier's production to cap hit is probably one of the better one's on the team.. the flyers get A LOT out of that 1.6 mil, with the potential to get even more out of him next year

 

[lasgop8]

i'm not sure that's true.. RNH is pretty good in edmonton, but i think couturier could compete with him for 1st line time there.. in florida he'd probably be a good 2C (behind huberdeau, with weiss moving to the wing if he's ever healthy).. canadiens, outside of plekanec aren't real strong down the middle.. and you'd be hard pressed to find C's that could play top 6 in chicago

IMO, if briere is bought out as expected, couturier has just as much talent/potential as schenn to play 2C for the flyers

also, on a team that is hurting for forwards that can play defense, couturier leaving would be a big hole.. even if you filled it with a defensive specialist, there goes even more scoring depth (even if it is just potential) that the flyers dont have.

plus, where do you come up w/ the money to trade couturier (1.6) for bobby ryan (5mil).. couturier's production to cap hit is probably one of the better one's on the team.. the flyers get A LOT out of that 1.6 mil, with the potential to get even more out of him next year

We both know it wouldnt be Cooter for bobby ryan straight up because the ducks would laugh in our face at that.Plus calling him a defensive specialist isnt quite what he is maybe i would call him a very good defensive player which is 90% of his game. very good defensive centers around the league that dont score or hit tend to be third line centers at best. I want to keep cooter but if he shows what he did this whole season but the last 10 games we arent going to have other teams coveting him like they do now.

 

[Slayer31]

My vote is to keep Coots as well.

Wonder what we could get for a Reid / Laughton package? Not much, I'm sure, but would like to see Homer repeat his Timo/Hartnell trade tactic again. Not sure that kind of opportunity exists...

Unless I'm mistaken, RFA offer sheets suck all your 1st Round Picks away.

 

[awaz]

My vote is to keep Coots as well.

Wonder what we could get for a Reid / Laughton package? Not much, I'm sure, but would like to see Homer repeat his Timo/Hartnell trade tactic again. Not sure that kind of opportunity exists...

Unless I'm mistaken, RFA offer sheets suck all your 1st Round Picks away.

i think the threshold is like 6 or 7 mil for it to require 4-1st round picks to steal someone away with an offersheet

the hartnell/timo tactic was trading a 1st for the rights to sign both of them.. really worked out that year because the 1st was actually the predators 1st that came over in the forsberg deal

i feel very similarly, maybe even stronger, about keeping read.. couturier is a steal at 1.6, read is akin to plundering fort knox at 900k.. with the cap going down, you gotta keep guys like that.. even though i like him, bschenn would be the guy i would look to move since he carries a cap hit of 3 mil and really doesn't produce at that level

that's if i'm making a move.. i really dont think the flyers should look to do much trading this offseason.. make a sound draft pick, buy out briere and/or bryz, sign a legit veteran goalie to compete w/ mason if you buy out bryz.. and look for buy low opportunities (ie mike green, tyler myers).. i would kick around trades w/ st louis though, they've got a lot of interesting decisions to make, it would be wise to stay up to date w/ what they're doing (but dear god, not jaybo)

 

[lasgop8]

i think the threshold is like 6 or 7 mil for it to require 4-1st round picks to steal someone away with an offersheet

the hartnell/timo tactic was trading a 1st for the rights to sign both of them.. really worked out that year because the 1st was actually the predators 1st that came over in the forsberg deal

i feel very similarly, maybe even stronger, about keeping read.. couturier is a steal at 1.6, read is akin to plundering fort knox at 900k.. with the cap going down, you gotta keep guys like that.. even though i like him, bschenn would be the guy i would look to move since he carries a cap hit of 3 mil and really doesn't produce at that level

that's if i'm making a move.. i really dont think the flyers should look to do much trading this offseason.. make a sound draft pick, buy out briere and/or bryz, sign a legit veteran goalie to compete w/ mason if you buy out bryz.. and look for buy low opportunities (ie mike green, tyler myers).. i would kick around trades w/ st louis though, they've got a lot of interesting decisions to make, it would be wise to stay up to date w/ what they're doing (but dear god, not jaybo)

Toatally agree with the whole last paragraph. Get healthy and have a better goalie and play on!

 

[awaz]

dustin leed RT JoeDepto

NHL Playoff OT: "where the non-fans become casual fans, casuals become diehards & diehards have coronaries"

thought that was pretty well said.

 

[lasgop8]

What happened to all the posters from CBS that came on the board nobody found their way over here.

 

[Slayer31]

Toatally agree with the whole last paragraph. Get healthy and have a better goalie and play on!

I totally agree with Homer when he says we need to improve our D.

Concur also that Read's salary makes him a steal, but, in the quest for better D:
- I don't think Read's a crucial element;
- His low salary should increase his value (IMO) to teams up against the cap wall, and to teams with owners who don't want to open their wallets;
- Gotta give up something to get something, and see first bullet above.

 

[awaz]

I totally agree with Homer when he says we need to improve our D.

Concur also that Read's salary makes him a steal, but, in the quest for better D:
- I don't think Read's a crucial element;
- His low salary should increase his value (IMO) to teams up against the cap wall, and to teams with owners who don't want to open their wallets;
- Gotta give up something to get something, and see first bullet above.

like the flyers. IMO read is the most versatile forward the flyers have, and at 900k it makes almost no sense to move him IMO.. he can play any position in the top 12 and be a good fit there. center, left, right, pk, PP, he can do it all. IMO, in a salary cap world, Read is a crucial element.

as far as improving the D.. my question is, why? who on the defense was so horrific this season that he needs to be upgraded? coburn had a bit of a down year, grossmann and mesz were fine while they were healthy. timonen and schenn were great-to-fantastic. gervais/huskins/gus/lauridsen/manning/bourdon(health?) are all more than capable 6th dmen. the flyers went through something like 13 dmen this year and the defense was probably strongest when lauridsen and gustafsson were playing in the 3/4 roles. it was 100% how they played, not the personnel. when you play a run and gun offense, it really doesn't matter who you have playing defense, they're going to be hung out to dry repeatedly. especially when briere, schenn, simmonds, giroux (at times), voracek (at times), and hartnell refuse to play defense. trading read or couturier makes things even worse on that front. you're cutting off your nose to spite your face at that point. you might get a better dman, but they're going to get even less support from the forwards. preventing goals is a 6-man effort in hockey, have 2 superstars and a good goalie still wont negate having 3 forwards that don't play defense

i'm all for improving the team where you can. but when you have to cut 6-8 mil in cap hits, just to get under the new cap, moving the guys on your team that are actually under-paid is not a good way to do it. especially when you're trying to improve team defense by getting rid of the only forwards who consistently play defense and can still provide offense

 

[awaz]

the flyers do need to find a replacement for timonen. but who knows, maybe ghostisbehere is ready by oct. 2014 to step in and give some puck-moving help. maybe they draft a guy in june that is ready by oct. 2014 to step in and give some puck-moving help. who knows, maybe the 2013/14 season goes to hell in a hand basket and they draft someone in june 2014 that can step in. gotta have some patience here. and in the mean time, you gotta focus on playing team defense, instead of leaving one or two dmen and a goalie to fend for themselves against a 5-man onslaught.

 

[lasgop8]

like the flyers. IMO read is the most versatile forward the flyers have, and at 900k it makes almost no sense to move him IMO.. he can play any position in the top 12 and be a good fit there. center, left, right, pk, PP, he can do it all. IMO, in a salary cap world, Read is a crucial element.

as far as improving the D.. my question is, why? who on the defense was so horrific this season that he needs to be upgraded? coburn had a bit of a down year, grossmann and mesz were fine while they were healthy. timonen and schenn were great-to-fantastic. gervais/huskins/gus/lauridsen/manning/bourdon(health?) are all more than capable 6th dmen. the flyers went through something like 13 dmen this year and the defense was probably strongest when lauridsen and gustafsson were playing in the 3/4 roles. it was 100% how they played, not the personnel. when you play a run and gun offense, it really doesn't matter who you have playing defense, they're going to be hung out to dry repeatedly. especially when briere, schenn, simmonds, giroux (at times), voracek (at times), and hartnell refuse to play defense. trading read or couturier makes things even worse on that front. you're cutting off your nose to spite your face at that point. you might get a better dman, but they're going to get even less support from the forwards. preventing goals is a 6-man effort in hockey, have 2 superstars and a good goalie still wont negate having 3 forwards that don't play defense

i'm all for improving the team where you can. but when you have to cut 6-8 mil in cap hits, just to get under the new cap, moving the guys on your team that are actually under-paid is not a good way to do it. especially when you're trying to improve team defense by getting rid of the only forwards who consistently play defense and can still provide offense

I agree with most of this except for Mezz looked terrible and cant stay healthy. If someone wants him for a pair of used skates im all for it to move his salary and Coburn had a lot more than a down year he was horrible and i mean HORRIBLE. I cant think of one of our Dmen that wasnt miles better than him this season.

 

[awaz]

I agree with most of this except for Mezz looked terrible and cant stay healthy. If someone wants him for a pair of used skates im all for it to move his salary and Coburn had a lot more than a down year he was Horrible and i mean HORRIBLE. I cant think of one of our Dmen that wasnt miles better than him this season.

on coburn:
i think it's unwise to judge the guy too much on a shortened season where he was hurt for half of it. i think the flyers are perfectly fine w/ him in the 3/4 hole next year

on mesz:
it's tough to judge him on a shortened, injury plagued season too. if he's healthy, i think he's a fine 4/5 dman that's more than capable of moving up in case of injury. but his injury history is definitely a concern. however, look at where in the lineup we're talking. he's the flyers #5 if everyone is healthy. there's no need to try to get pietrangelo or yandle when you need a #5. hell, gus played well enough in the second half of the season that i'd be fine w/ him in the 5-spot, though i would prefer getting another bottom pair dman rather than have a gervais/gus 3rd pair.