Detroit Tigers Ongoing 2015 Thread

[MiamiVice]

Verhagen is the first guy in a long time that they had pegged as a starter and converted... They road the idea of Andy Oliver as a MLB starter until the wheels fell off.. guess where andy oliver is now.. in baltimore's farm.. as a reliever..

For what ever reason who ever is in charge of the Tigers farm basically says.. this guy is a starter.. this guy is a reliever.. and they rarely deviate from that... when its plain as day a guy isn't going to make it as a starter...

I can name you 5 guys right now they are rolling out as a starter that should be a reliever...

1. Austin Kubitza - never going to hack it as a starter.. the tigers will roll him out there for another few seasons and let him poop the bed when he MIGHT actually get MLB hitters out in a relief role at some point.
2. Briceno - why he is still starting is beyond me.. he is 23 and can't stay healthy as a starter
3. Chad Green - another guy that is sub standard in AA as a starter... he will be 25 next year... how long do you give the guy until you put him in the pen?
4. Tommy Collier - 25 yrs old in AA with average numbers..
5. Josh Turley - 25.... in AA... with average numbers.. yet the Tigers keep him as a starter. They just drafted about 30 pitchers in the last 2 years.. you can't tell me they don't have a few guys from international signings or the draft from the last 3 years that could be in high A ball or AA rotations and let these 25 yr olds move to the pen... It just blows my mind they keep guys in starting roles when it isn't working past the age of 24... if you are 25 and in high A ball as a starter.. you better be on rehab or you have no business starting.

They have 23 year olds in Conneticut short league ball that haven't even moved up to low a ball yet!! with era under 2.5 and whips of 1? WHY?? Move the younger kids up that have a chance to start.. get the older guys into bullpen roles.. DFA the shit guys that won't make a MLB roster.. its not hard.. it really isn't.. but for some reason the Tigers keep clowns in the farm system until they are 32 instead of cutting ties or trying them in a new role.

 

[da55bums]

LOL at this guy trying to say relievers peak years are 36+... you didn't know how old he was bums... just admit it you clown... you thought he was younger.. its ok.. we know that was the case.. you don't have to argue idiotic points... You can name 10 relievers out of the 1,000,000,000 that have pitched in the mlb that were even remotely good at that age.

Pitchers don't "peak" in their late 30's... a handful have had success... but if you think Nathan was at his peak at the age of 37... you obviously can't read stat sheets. You don't invest 8-10 mil+ on pitchers 35 yrs or older... its not smart.. contracts that push into this territory end up as issues more times than not...

I know you just didn't know how old he was.. and instead of admitting it.. you try to make up some clown argument... just like you said you didn't see kimbrel's sophomore year stats... you didn't see any of his stats... freshman or sophomore... just admit it... you look like a god damn fool arguing stuff like this.

Joe Nathan Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com
Yeah... he peaked at 37... i guess his age 29-34 stretch he was just getting warmed up...

Treavor Hoffman peaked at 37 too you say? LOL really?
Trevor Hoffman Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

Do you even know what the definition of "peaked" is? It doesn't mean they had good years at that age... it means they had their best years.... Just because a guy's career extended into his late 30's to early 40's doesn't mean he "peaked" then. I am sure you are going to try to argue your point.. but I made mine... everyone that sees you post can tell how much of a moron you are.

Your old Royal buddies from CBS can't stand you da55bums... why is that? I can chat with them no problem... and they talk shit about you all the time... huh.. i guess even though trailer trash clowns can see how much of idiot you are...

Benoit's number's proved not only my point but that Det screwed the pooch, they guy would have been golden for the Tigers, couldn't afford him at the time or didn't want to spend it on RP, which eventually they spent that type of money on RP anyway. Its not a secret, its listed as one of DD's worst moves as a Tigers GM.

Nathan- great years at 34, 37 a very good year then hit it again at 38, with 43 saves and 1.39 era trever Hoffman also at 38 only lead the majors in Saves and had his highest CY vote place (2nd). Eckersly, Smoltz, Tom Gordon all smoked it in mid 30's. The list could just go on. Thanks for providing those pages as evidence that it was stupid to not resign Benoit. Apparently Detroit thought it would be better to wait til 39-40 for those peak years on Nathan, then cry that DD tried and shocked when it didn't work. I know before Nathan blew up, you thought signing a 39 yr old was a great decision. I already know you have no idea how to judge relievers,

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

Who in the Tigers system could step in and replace AlAl? (Again, I don't even think he's good

OUCH !

he had a really shitty 2013 but in no way do I think he's not good. yes, he walks guys at the wrong time and even "shows a Valverde moment" and has his bad outings, just like many other RP, he's still better than average if used right by a qualified coach. even Leyland overused AL AL.

I can't see one RP or SP converted to RP in the minors that is guaranteed to be better than AL AL, right now or even next spring. Pretty sure AL AL's arb projection is 2M for 2016. It's not horrible and he's better than Joba.

Should one of the Farm hands come to the forefront next spring, then we'll see what's best at that time. Until then, I see AL AL still being on the opening day roster 2016.

 

[broncosmitty]

It remains to be seen if Buck Farmer could or couldn't put up a 3.5 era as a reliever... I would bet he could... but that being said... Look at what Verhagen is doing so far... and he is half the prospect Farmer is...

My guess is any number of guys could come up and pitch to a 3.5 era... for christ's sakes.. Luke Putkonen had an era of 3.03 in 29 innings one year...

Who was Blaine Hardy before being called up to the bullpen?

Thad Weber (starter in AAA) has a career era of 2.4 as a reliever in the majors in 15 innings (small sample size but none the less.. that is 15 appearances)



Look.. I know you have no confidence in guys in the Tigers minors.. but do you have any idea how many scrub starting pitchers end up as good relievers? Joe Nathan was absolutely shit as a starter...

Its not that hard to find a reliever that can keep his era under 3.5 for an entire season.. how many times do I have to point out the marlins... who have a middle of the road farm system by the way... and how they keep pumping out better than league average relief pitching... only a tigers fan or their front office seems to think its hard to find a reliever that has the ability to get 3 outs without giving up a run on the regular.

ERA isn't much of an indicator for a reliever, imo.

Unless they start every inning they pitch in.

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

It remains to be seen if Buck Farmer could or couldn't put up a 3.5 era as a reliever... I would bet he could... but that being said... Look at what Verhagen is doing so far... and he is half the prospect Farmer is...

My guess is any number of guys could come up and pitch to a 3.5 era... for christ's sakes.. Luke Putkonen had an era of 3.03 in 29 innings one year...

AL AL ERA
2015 3.52 (2/3 last outings 5 Runs and last outing 0 IP 3 Runs, prior to those two outings he had a 2.70 ERA)
2014 2.51
2013 4.59 (crappy year coming off 2012 injury)
2012 0.68 (8 appearances 13.1 IP, late in year Sept)
2011 1.87

there's been 4-5 times this year I had made remarks that he needs to go but I wouldn't unless I had a near guarantee there's someone better, that's cheaper than what he'll be.

 

[broncosmitty]

OUCH !

he had a really shitty 2013 but in no way do I think he's not good. yes, he walks guys at the wrong time and even "shows a Valverde moment" and has his bad outings, just like many other RP, he's still better than average if used right by a qualified coach. even Leyland overused AL AL.

I can't see one RP or SP converted to RP in the minors that is guaranteed to be better than AL AL, right now or even next spring. Pretty sure AL AL's arb projection is 2M for 2016. It's not horrible and he's better than Joba.

Should one of the Farm hands come to the forefront next spring, then we'll see what's best at that time. Until then, I see AL AL still being on the opening day roster 2016.

Some nights, over the years, he's just been impossible for me to watch/stomach.

You can usually tell 5-6 pitches in if its going to be one of those nights. If he has control of his slider, he's definitely worth what he'll get via arbitration. (Nobody actually goes to arbitration anymore anyway. For good reason.... "Hey Al, here's why we don't want to pay you..... But we want to pay this.")

There aren't guys floating around the minors with an out pitch like he has.

 

[MiamiVice]

OUCH !

he had a really shitty 2013 but in no way do I think he's not good. yes, he walks guys at the wrong time and even "shows a Valverde moment" and has his bad outings, just like many other RP, he's still better than average if used right by a qualified coach. even Leyland overused AL AL.

I can't see one RP or SP converted to RP in the minors that is guaranteed to be better than AL AL, right now or even next spring. Pretty sure AL AL's arb projection is 2M for 2016. It's not horrible and he's better than Joba.

Should one of the Farm hands come to the forefront next spring, then we'll see what's best at that time. Until then, I see AL AL still being on the opening day roster 2016.

He probably will be on the roster in 2016...but my point is his production is easily replaced... Tigers fans are WAY overvaluing him. Who was Blaine Hardy before he started coming out of the pen last year? Seriously? Tigers fans... wake up.. take a look at other teams bull pens... they are not filled with high prospects or high cost guys... they are filled with 10th rounders and 30th rounders... they are filled with guys that had 4.55 era's as starters in AAA... no other team has this much trouble fielding a league average bullpen.. it has nothing to do with quality of the farm system... or trading away prospects.. it has everything to do with the fact they keep trying to send out retreads that have been proven to suck as a reliever... Where was the Rays closer last year? Who is the closer from the Blue Jays? Where did the Cards find their closer? Come on guys... this isn't hard to see.. other teams don't struggle putting a bull pen together like the Tigers... So you can either stop doing the same thing that hasn't worked in 10 years... or you can start looking at how others do it that works...

I don't want to waste another year.. there are no free agents worth giving money to. I don't want to see the Tigers waste more prospects on the gamble of an experienced closer... I want them to field a bullpen like a 50 mil payroll team does.. The FUCKING MARLINS DONT SPEND MONEY ON RELIEVERS!!!! NOR DOES MOST OF THE LEAGUE!!!!

 

[MiamiVice]

Some nights, over the years, he's just been impossible for me to watch/stomach.

You can usually tell 5-6 pitches in if its going to be one of those nights. If he has control of his slider, he's definitely worth what he'll get via arbitration. (Nobody actually goes to arbitration anymore anyway. For good reason.... "Hey Al, here's why we don't want to pay you..... But we want to pay this.")

There aren't guys floating around the minors with an out pitch like he has.

Total BS... Paul Volker has a nastier slider than AL AL...
There are plenty of guys that can do what al alburquerque has done.. why can't you guys see it.. blaine hardy is one of the best relievers the tigers have... he is way better than alburquerque... he came out of no where... wilson? he was a throw in that nobody talked about in the porcello trade... hell.. I would take verhagen over alburquerque...

 

[MiamiVice]

Tigers fans are so used to having shitty bullpens.. they don't realize that most good relievers are no names before they come into a bullpen role... you aren't supposed to have a hot shot bullpen prospect.. good teams don't have big name bull pen prospects.. they have guys that failed in the role of starter that they call up because they need to get 3 outs... You guys are acting like a reliever pitcher = an ace... jesus christ man.... if you don't believe me that relievers grow on trees.. take a look at the relievers that the rays have used in the last 3 seasons.... and where their bullpen ranked....

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

MLB Relief Pitcher Spending - Cap

The FUCKING MARLINS DONT SPEND MONEY ON RELIEVERS!!!! NOR DOES MOST OF THE LEAGUE!!!!

14 MLB teams with a RP payroll over 10M or more and they have the Tigers bottom 5 with just over 4M, however, that doesn't include Soria's and Nathan's payroll for 2015. Looks like based on after trade deadline #'s. KC, SD, SF all have RP payroll above 20M. KC leads the list at 26M. Tigers should be in that group with Nathans 10M and Soria's 7M (up until traded) for this season. Right now, they list the Tigers RP payroll 4.5M.

 

[MiamiVice]

Who the hell was Trevor Rosenthal before he was in the Cards pen? He was a middling starter in the minors thats who... Who was Brad Boxberger before being the closer in Tampa? A guy with an era of 4.64 in AA thats who...
Wade Davis was an F'ing scrub as a starter... Your boy Benoit... was a complete shit bag as a starter with an era in the 5's....

How many more relievers do I have to show you that were nobodies before they got the chance to pitch in relief, before you guys realize that other teams don't build bullpens like the Tigers do. They don't worry about them at all. Do you think the cards give a shit about signing big name bull pen arms? Do you see the Giants doing it? BULLPENS ARE THE EASIEST PART OF A TEAM TO BUILD... Unless you are Detroit and you try to just pay for other peoples left overs.

 

[MiamiVice]

MLB Relief Pitcher Spending - Cap



14 MLB teams with a RP payroll over 10M or more and they have the Tigers bottom 5 with just over 4M, however, that doesn't include Soria's and Nathan's payroll for 2015. Looks like based on after trade deadline #'s. KC, SD, SF all have RP payroll above 20M. KC leads the list at 26M. Tigers should be in that group with Nathans 10M and Soria's 7M (up until traded) for this season. Right now, they list the Tigers RP payroll 4.5M.

Tigers went into this year with a bullpen payroll over 23 mil.. Comparing them to KC is pointless... everyone of the guys making that money were cheap at one point.. but have gotten expensive in arbitration.. they didn't sign them as free agents....

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

You guys are acting like a reliever pitcher = an ace... jesus christ man....

You need to slow your roll, Vice. Seriously. I read your tone and I also comprehend your point of view. However, when you get that tone in your writing's, trust me, it's not a great thing around here. it's why people get frustrated with you. I see your point for wanting to use in house talent. Smitty, Gandy and I all had a convo on why it is that teams like SF, STL, OAK, TB, ATL, to name a very few, would crank out, in house talent from their farm arms. You've ranted for weeks pounding home the same ole story. We get it, man. I actually agree with you regarding giving these young arms a chance to work things out while in roster expansion time. Should these young guys come up, evaluate them after the reg season ends.

 

[MiamiVice]

I just don't get how people would even remotely think the way Detroit has attempted to build a pen should be continued.. Its like eating mcdonalds every day for 10 years.. getting fat.. telling yourself its not healty.. then going back to mcdonalds for lunch the next day...

 

[MiamiVice]

sorry but its frustrating for to see fellow fan bases complain about how shitty the tigers bullpen has been for a decade.. then want them to continue doing the exact same methods. at some point... don't you say... its not working.. lets try something else? I mean.. seriously.. could the bullpen be any worse this year if they had nothing but in house low cost guys like verhagen or knudson pitching all year?

to say buck farmer couldn't pitch out of the pen to the tune of al alburquerque's 3.5 era... that just makes me want to go nuts...al alburquerque sucks.. farmer has 10x the stuff he does... nobody in the minors has a strike out pitch like him? lol... seriously.. the guy can't even get the ball over the plate 75% of the time... to say NOBODY in the minors has a strike out pitch like him is ridiculous. It really shows no knowledge of the tigers minor leagues at all.

 

[broncosmitty]

I'm honestly sitting at a Mickey Dees drive thru right now. Laughing.

 

[MiamiVice]

I'm honestly sitting at a Mickey Dees drive thru right now. Laughing.

so was dave dombrowski for the last 10 seasons or so...

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

to say buck farmer couldn't pitch out of the pen to the tune of al alburquerque's 3.5 era... that just makes me want to go nuts...al alburquerque sucks.. farmer has 10x the stuff he does

I haven't seen it from him yet in the sho. not even when he'd come in for middle relief when Simon and Greene were sucking ass in their short outings back in May and June. But, I'm willing to see what he can do in the role of RP, only, not as a starter unless he has a 180 turnabout between now and next spring.

Next years BP you can assume it's Wilson, Hardy, Rondon, AL, then it's up for grabs for farmhands and FA's. not saying I can agree with the above, outside of Wilson and Hardy. Rondon is an absolute JOKE.

 

[MiamiVice]

I haven't seen it from him yet in the sho. not even when he'd come in for middle relief when Simon and Greene were sucking ass in their short outings back in May and June. But, I'm willing to see what he can do in the role of RP, only, not as a starter unless he has a 180 turnabout between now and next spring.

Next years BP you can assume it's Wilson, Hardy, Rondon, AL, then it's up for grabs for farmhands and FA's. not saying I can agree with the above outside of Wilson and Hardy. Rondon is an absolute JOKE.

did you watch his start vs the orioles where he held them scoreless through 5 innings? Or his start vs the Reds where he has a 1 hitting going through 5 innings.. He has the stuff.. He has 3 above average pitches... al alburquerque has 1 above average pitch and a fastball he can't get over the plate.... heck he can rarely get his slider over the plate too.

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

Or his start vs the Reds where he has a 1 hitting going through 5 innings..

and then it went all to hell in a hand-basket for him