Detroit Tigers Ongoing 2015 Thread

[MiamiVice]

Maybe we should start a campaign to have Brad sit Victor a little bit in September so we can see some of the new guys and start to get Victor healthy.

the only young position players that have a real shot at playing next year are collings and moya... the other 8 spots are taken in the lineup barring some crazy trade. the biggest area the tigers need to explore what they have in is relievers...

 

[MiamiVice]

Listening to Gibby's voice is so horrible. He has to be the worst announcer in sports... Holy shit does he say some stupid stuff.

 

[Lions=TeHsUcKs]

The Tigers are getting pounded like Lisa Ann's vag.

 

[da55bums]

Tigers farm system- ranked 30th for 2nd year in a row - reason DD and Avila's drafting and system. Its not going to change in 1 year and maybe not at all if Avila continues doing the same thing

Tigers fans should be begging for a new GM with some experience of drafting/developing. A guy from any of those teams you listed big blue and even the Cardinals, they produce pitching all the time.

My favorite closer of all time was a first round pick, as a closer. He even won ROY just a season after he was drafted by the most overrated GM in sports history.

But Huston Street, Gregg Olsen(also a ROY) and Mike Henneman are the only guys I can think of who were drafted as closers and were successful in the majors.

I don't think Kimbrel was a closer in JC, just what the Braves wanted him to do. Mostly because he only has two pitches, I assume that's why anyway.... And throws hard. (Throwing hard doesn't count as a pitch to me, for the record.)

Kimbrel was the full time closer and spot starter in JC

 

[da55bums]

Kimbrel was a starter at Wallace State Community College. He didn't start coming out the bullpen full time until pro ball where he never started.

There are guys that can make the jump from being a college reliever to a mlb reliever.. but the odds are MUCH lower. The average closer/late inning reliever in the mlb right now was a failed starting pitching prospect that was converted to reliever... the percentage of guys that never started is probably close to 10%.

Look, I agree most relievers are failed starters. The Tigers problem is drafting good arms that can make it even as relievers. You can tell this mostly by their strikeout rates in the minors, even failed starters who end up good relievers struck out guys in the minors.

Kimbrel was not a starter at WSCC, he was there full time closer and spot starter. Just look at his stats will tell you that.

 

[broncosmitty]

Tigers farm system- ranked 30th for 2nd year in a row - reason DD and Avila's drafting and system. Its not going to change in 1 year and maybe not at all if Avila continues doing the same thing

Tigers fans should be begging for a new GM with some experience of drafting/developing. A guy from any of those teams you listed big blue and even the Cardinals, they produce pitching all the time.


Kimbrel was the full time closer and spot starter in JC

I can't find his full college stats, other than he had ONE save in two years. (Averaged over 5 innings per appearance. Those aren't closer numbers.)

I'm not trying to advocate drafting relievers by any means. But I think it's been waaaaay over blown on this board. DD drafted plenty of good arms, that start and relieve in the majors. He just dealt many of them early for proven talent. Which was and still is fine by me. (Your Royals could win the WS this year because they've taken the same route recently. Prospect collecting saves money, it doesn't win games.)

As I posted the other day, no team has drafted more major leaguers than the Tigers over the last 15 years. Some like to pass that off because of 3-4 bad years early on in order to go along with their agenda. I don't share that mindset.

One disappointing season isn't forcing me to hope Avila reinvents the wheel or anything. But I do hope he has better luck assembling a bullpen than Dave did. (I said luck on purpose. Various moves made perfect sense, just didn't work out. Coupled with managers/pitching coaches/Geno that are hell bent on cementing guys in specific roles no matter their recent performance.).

Wouldn't have mattered much if Detroit and KC had switched bullpens this year. Our rotation is horrible. And it was obvious it would be before the season started. (Plus, Holland isn't that great now anyway.)

 

[MiamiVice]

I can't find his full college stats, other than he had ONE save in two years. (Averaged over 5 innings per appearance. Those aren't closer numbers.)

I'm not trying to advocate drafting relievers by any means. But I think it's been waaaaay over blown on this board. DD drafted plenty of good arms, that start and relieve in the majors. He just dealt many of them early for proven talent. Which was and still is fine by me. (Your Royals could win the WS this year because they've taken the same route recently. Prospect collecting saves money, it doesn't win games.)

As I posted the other day, no team has drafted more major leaguers than the Tigers over the last 15 years. Some like to pass that off because of 3-4 bad years early on in order to go along with their agenda. I don't share that mindset.

One disappointing season isn't forcing me to hope Avila reinvents the wheel or anything. But I do hope he has better luck assembling a bullpen than Dave did. (I said luck on purpose. Various moves made perfect sense, just didn't work out. Coupled with managers/pitching coaches/Geno that are hell bent on cementing guys in specific roles no matter their recent performance.).

Wouldn't have mattered much if Detroit and KC had switched bullpens this year. Our rotation is horrible. And it was obvious it would be before the season started. (Plus, Holland isn't that great now anyway.)

You are spot on.. Tigers don't need to reinvent the wheel because of 1 down year.. they have been world series contenders for the last 4 years... they obviously did something right. That being said.. nobody is going to claim DD was good at assembling a farm system... he did trade a lot of guys away.. which depleted what little was there.. but in all honesty... its not like they were investing big time in prospects anyways.... when was the last time the tigers paid more than $300,000 for a international prospect? The yankees farm system sucked for the same reason the tigers does recently.. but they opened up the wallet and signed a ton of top young international talent and now have a top 5 farm..

Farm systems are cycles.. you can have a great farm one year and the next after trades or call ups.. have a shitty one... the same goes with moving up.... the phillies farm is going to be on of the best in the MLB in a year...

Kimbrel was a starter in college that closed 1 game.. a normal occurrence with smaller colleges... 81 innings in 15 appearances are NOT closer numbers.. that is almost 6 innings per appearance...

Craig Kimbrel Baseball Statistics [2007-2015]

 

[broncosmitty]

You are spot on.. Tigers don't need to reinvent the wheel because of 1 down year.. they have been world series contenders for the last 4 years... they obviously did something right. That being said.. nobody is going to claim DD was good at assembling a farm system... he did trade a lot of guys away.. which depleted what little was there.. but in all honesty... its not like they were investing big time in prospects anyways.... when was the last time the tigers paid more than $300,000 for a international prospect? The yankees farm system sucked for the same reason the tigers does recently.. but they opened up the wallet and signed a ton of top young international talent and now have a top 5 farm..

Farm systems are cycles.. you can have a great farm one year and the next after trades or call ups.. have a shitty one... the same goes with moving up.... the phillies farm is going to be on of the best in the MLB in a year...

Kimbrel was a starter in college that closed 1 game.. a normal occurrence with smaller colleges... 81 innings in 15 appearances are NOT closer numbers.. that is almost 6 innings per appearance...

Craig Kimbrel Baseball Statistics [2007-2015]

International players is where my highest hopes are with Avila at the wheel.

Well... That and better luck with the bullpen. (That seems automatic, kinda.)

 

[MiamiVice]

Only 3 things i think the tigers need to rethink is their draft policy, international scouting policy, and their development of pitchers.

They need to focus on pitchers rather than hard throwers in the draft... spend more to get the top international prospects.. and start using minor league starters in their bullpen instead of keeping them starting in the minors.. when they have little shot to be a starter in the majors....

Thad Weber is a great example of this.. the guy is 30.. and still starting in AAA... and he will NEVER be called up to start.. but in 10 appearances in the MLB as a reliever.. he was decent... yet they would pay millions of dollars for washed up guys... its not rocket science.. low budget teams field good bullpens all the time.. in fact.. you can argue bullpens are the easiest and cheapest piece of a team to put together... Its when you start putting big money into it and have aging arms fill your pen that you end up with the mess the tigers have had.

 

[MiamiVice]

Kyle Ryan, Buck Farmer, Drew Verhagen, and Matt Boyd all should be in the Tigers bullpen next year... They are not going to be in the rotation... and they can sign a vet or two on a minor league deal to have stashed in AAA if injuries arise.. the young pitchers should be in the pen... if they eventually want to try them starting its one thing.. but even David Price started his career as a reliever when he was first called up.

 

[MiamiVice]

Tigers bullpen arms should look something like this next year... barring a trade...

Verhagen
Hardy
Ryan/Mantiply/Boyd
Wilson
Farmer
Albuquerque

I would bet on Farmer actually being similiar to Verhagen.. a much better pitcher in relief. Farmer actually has good movement on his pitches...

 

[MiamiVice]

Rondon has had his shot.. I just don't think he can get MLB hitters out. Only having two pitchers.. one being a 100 mph meatball and the other a slider he can't locate... There are other options the Tigers have that can get guys out in the minors...

 

[da55bums]

Kimbrel, a Lee-Huntsville High grad, carved out a solid career at Wallace State, playing during the 2007 and 2008 seasons. In 2007, Kimbrel went 8-0 with a 1.99 ERA as a freshman, serving as the team’s closer and spot starter, and was drafted by the Braves in the 33rd round of the major league draft. Kimbrel returned to the Lions for his sophomore season and finished 9-3 with a 2.88 ERA, striking out 123 hitters in 81 innings, primarily as a starter. He was drafted again by the Braves in 2008, selected in the third round.

Craig Kimbrel's Former Wallace State Baseball Coach Thrilled For All-Time Saves Mark

 

[da55bums]

gu

I can't find his full college stats, other than he had ONE save in two years. (Averaged over 5 innings per appearance. Those aren't closer numbers.)

I'm not trying to advocate drafting relievers by any means. But I think it's been waaaaay over blown on this board. DD drafted plenty of good arms, that start and relieve in the majors. He just dealt many of them early for proven talent. Which was and still is fine by me. (Your Royals could win the WS this year because they've taken the same route recently. Prospect collecting saves money, it doesn't win games.)

As I posted the other day, no team has drafted more major leaguers than the Tigers over the last 15 years. Some like to pass that off because of 3-4 bad years early on in order to go along with their agenda. I don't share that mindset.

One disappointing season isn't forcing me to hope Avila reinvents the wheel or anything. But I do hope he has better luck assembling a bullpen than Dave did. (I said luck on purpose. Various moves made perfect sense, just didn't work out. Coupled with managers/pitching coaches/Geno that are hell bent on cementing guys in specific roles no matter their recent performance.).

Wouldn't have mattered much if Detroit and KC had switched bullpens this year. Our rotation is horrible. And it was obvious it would be before the season started. (Plus, Holland isn't that great now anyway.)

Kimbrel was in college 2 years, if you couldn't find his stats for his freshman year, pretty tough to say he only had 1 save.

Kimbrel was the closer his entire freshman year, didn't get drafted high enough so he tried out being a starter for his sophomore year to improve his draft position.

 

[MiamiVice]

So what your saying is he WAS a starter... you were wrong... thanks for playing...

 

[da55bums]

definitely agree, Det going with Simon and Greene set themselves up to have a horrible rotation and bullpen not really mattering. But there is starting to be a common theme developing and maybe a change in baseball. Good bullpen with ok starters works better than good starters with ok bullpen.

The Royals aren't the only team using that. Just more available good bullpen guys than good starters.

 

[MiamiVice]

Kimbrel was not a starter at WSCC, he was there full time closer and spot starter. Just look at his stats will tell you that.

LOL...

 

[da55bums]

Yes, I looked at his freshman year.

while you obviously looked at his sophomore season.

We both were completely wrong on his college career. Although, I notice he didn't fail as a starter in his 1 season as one. Smart coaching/managing put him in position to obviously do very well.

 

[MiamiVice]

definitely agree, Det going with Simon and Greene set themselves up to have a horrible rotation and bullpen not really mattering. But there is starting to be a common theme developing and maybe a change in baseball. Good bullpen with ok starters works better than good starters with ok bullpen.

The Royals aren't the only team using that. Just more available good bullpen guys than good starters.

This will NEVER be the norm... High end starters will always rule. Teams with good rotations AND good bullpens will beat a team with a shitty rotation and a good bullpen in a 7 game series every time...

The only teams that employ this tactic are low budget teams. Can it work... doubtful... Its still yet to be won by a team trying it... When it comes down to it balance is the name of the game. Offense and starting pitching is what costs money not bullpens.... the big market teams that can have talent across the board are the ones that will win. Royals fans acting like the last 2 years are the new norm for them are going to have a rude awaking soon when all these players in arbitration eventually out grow what the KC market can afford to pay... and they are right back to square one... KC is NOT a market that can afford large payrolls. They have one of the weakest TV deals in the majors... even with increased attendance they are still not going to play with the big boys... KC fans need to enjoy it while it lasts.. its only a matter of time before they can't afford to keep guys like Hosmer, Duffy, Ventura... the KC farm system is depleted and no where near what it once was... Ask teams like the A's and Rays how hard it has been for them to stay contenders... KC isn't Boston, LA, NY, or even Det... and never will be... Stl owns your region TV wise.. and that will never change..

 

[MiamiVice]

definitely agree, Det going with Simon and Greene set themselves up to have a horrible rotation and bullpen not really mattering. But there is starting to be a common theme developing and maybe a change in baseball. Good bullpen with ok starters works better than good starters with ok bullpen.

The Royals aren't the only team using that. Just more available good bullpen guys than good starters.

Huh.. seems the Giants proved this wrong last year...