Curious as to why some think Kaepernick isn't doing well

[rmilia1]

No one is saying Kaep hasnt performed well. We are simply saying he hasnt really been any better than Alex has been over the last year and a half. I would have had no issue with this move if done at the start of this season or next season. It is just an odd move to make on a 6-2 team that is coming off of a NFC championship game appearance. Especially when it has not made you a better team. Hopefully for you guys Kaeps lack of critical big time game experience doesnt cost you. It may not but once again, thats the point. I dont now if it will and NEITHER DO YOU.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Crimsoncrew,

I read your post and for the exception of a few points I agree. The one thing mentioned in your post and I have seen it mentioned by others and now Lowell Cohn has paid homage to the idea in his most recent waste of bandwidth is this idea that Kap looks like Smith - and I'm not really sure why this is even a concern.

What should now be obvious to most of us is the fact that Jim Harbaugh likes to develop his players. There are many levels of development. Aside from off-field development another level of development includes inserting these players into winning situations - not game winning situations - performance winning situations.

For those of us who are disciples of the Bill Walsh era we watched as Walsh invoked this philosophy to build our dynasty of the 80's & 90's. Bill Walsh believed that championship teams do not have 22 starters they have 53.

It is clear from the comments that many are overlooking the fact that there are 10-15 other players affected by this change at QB; you cannot insert a radically different QB and instantly run a radically different offense. There are 10-15 other players that have to adjust as well - it is a process – it takes time.

Kap has spent his past 18 months practicing and playing in Smith's offense, so naturally until everybody gets up to speed he will continue operating in Smith's offense. And while doing so Kap is in a winning situation gaining confidence while he and the rest of the offense are building chemistry.

We are not seeing Kaps limitations we are seeing his upside. In four games he has shown he has comfortable command & control of the Smith offense – and in time he will have command & control of his own offense. Harbaugh knows precisely what he is doing; we are watching a student of the master at work. Be patient, the results will follow.

I agree entirely. My point was that Kap has been executing Smith-type games about as well as Smith did so, with the one glaring exception of the pitch play - though in that game, the 50-yard run and perfect pass to Walker should have mitigated that blunder, and those were not Smith-type plays. Unlike Smith, who is solid and perfectly competent, Kap has the talent to do a lot more.

I was not very high on Kap in the draft. Tons of physical tools, but I thought he'd need to sit a minimum of 2-3 years and I had some serious reservations about taking him as high as we did. I seem to recall you and I got into a discussion about his accuracy earlier this year, and during the course of that I realized I was probably overstating his accuracy especially deep. Well, in the weeks since he got in there, he has really answered a lot of those questions. He's been poised, remarkably accurate, and instinctive. And by and large he's mostly made good decisions. There have been hiccoughs, of course, but he has far exceeded my expectations for this point in his career. So if we know he can give us about what Smith can now, why not see what he can do with more time?

 

[Bemular]

No Smith supporter has ever been 1/10 this desperate to downplay the guy's mistakes. Breaking new ground after all these years.

I'm not downplaying anything - I am well aware of Kaps mistakes and what those mistakes cost us and what he did to make up for those mistakes.

You are over-playing his mistakes to the point delusion. You actually believe if the game had ended at 13-10 that it would have gone into overtime.

Sorry Space but you have some serious mental health issues.

 

[rmilia1]

So now you are saying Colin and Peyton have no intangibles but Tim Tebow does have intangibles?

Do you know what intangibles are and how to identify them? And if you do can you explain your claim?

Jesus man I have explained every single thing I have posted ad nauseum. I in no way said that Peyton or CK have "no intangibles". I am saying intangibles are a weak ass argument and a crutch used by people to avoid using actual data. You are selling Kaep short if you speak of him that way. The kid is talented and will probably eventualy be a better QB than Alex, right now he isnt and I thought that was the point of our discussion.

 

[Bemular]

I agree entirely. My point was that Kap has been executing Smith-type games about as well as Smith did so, with the one glaring exception of the pitch play - though in that game, the 50-yard run and perfect pass to Walker should have mitigated that blunder, and those were not Smith-type plays. Unlike Smith, who is solid and perfectly competent, Kap has the talent to do a lot more.

I was not very high on Kap in the draft. Tons of physical tools, but I thought he'd need to sit a minimum of 2-3 years and I had some serious reservations about taking him as high as we did. I seem to recall you and I got into a discussion about his accuracy earlier this year, and during the course of that I realized I was probably overstating his accuracy especially deep. Well, in the weeks since he got in there, he has really answered a lot of those questions. He's been poised, remarkably accurate, and instinctive. And by and large he's mostly made good decisions. There have been hiccoughs, of course, but he has far exceeded my expectations for this point in his career. So if we know he can give us about what Smith can now, why not see what he can do with more time?

I can't add anything to your post - well said!

As to the "deep ball" discussion, yes, I do recall that discussion - Kap has come a long way since his first pre-season; and, to your point, if he progresses over the next year and a half at the same rate he has over the last year and a half - then I think we will have found a diamond in the rough.

 

[rmilia1]

I agree entirely. My point was that Kap has been executing Smith-type games about as well as Smith did so, with the one glaring exception of the pitch play - though in that game, the 50-yard run and perfect pass to Walker should have mitigated that blunder, and those were not Smith-type plays. Unlike Smith, who is solid and perfectly competent, Kap has the talent to do a lot more.

I was not very high on Kap in the draft. Tons of physical tools, but I thought he'd need to sit a minimum of 2-3 years and I had some serious reservations about taking him as high as we did. I seem to recall you and I got into a discussion about his accuracy earlier this year, and during the course of that I realized I was probably overstating his accuracy especially deep. Well, in the weeks since he got in there, he has really answered a lot of those questions. He's been poised, remarkably accurate, and instinctive. And by and large he's mostly made good decisions. There have been hiccoughs, of course, but he has far exceeded my expectations for this point in his career. So if we know he can give us about what Smith can now, why not see what he can do with more time?

Good post Crimson. I guess it just depends on how you look at it. I dont think anyone is in disagreement about Kaeps potential being WAYYYY superior to Alexs. I simply find it strange to make the move mid year on a team that can get to a Super Bowl without making it. You and B and others must have a higher risk tolerance than me because if my team did that Id be scared shitless of the potential for costing my team a title just to build for the future.

 

[Bemular]

Jesus man I have explained every single thing I have posted ad nauseum. I in no way said that Peyton or CK have "no intangibles". I am saying intangibles are a weak ass argument and a crutch used by people to avoid using actual data. You are selling Kaep short if you speak of him that way. The kid is talented and will probably eventualy be a better QB than Alex, right now he isnt and I thought that was the point of our discussion.

I know that both Colin and Peyton have many intangibles and Tebow has few. I think what is weak-ass is that you honestly do not have a clue what intangibles are, because if you did you would have explained them.

And, another thing that is weak-ass is even if you did know what intangibles were you wouldn't have a clue what Colin's intangibles are because you have never watched a 49ers game, yet you want to come across like you no everything about our team and our QB.

See, you want to be smart but you are not smart. You think you know - but you don't know.

 

[clyde_carbon]

I think you're a decent person, so I'll explain this one more time in hopes of you finally getting it: when you only criticize, and fail to ever balance that out with reasonable praise, you paint yourself as a critic. Nothing to do with "daring to criticize" - plenty here criticize regularly, and fairly - its to do with 100% of your comments being critical.

I've criticized Smith, Crabtree, Anthony Davis, Dixon, Ginn, Goldson, etc. My criticism was aimed at a lot of players. I have no bias, if I believe you're holding this team back in any way, I'm gonna say it. Obviously a lot of it is about Alex Smith, but that's because he's the fucking QB.

The only player you've ever vehemently defended on this board was Alex Smith - even when various posters were trashing his surrounding cast to pimp him out as a good QB.

Some posters even claimed that Harbaugh was actually holding Alex Smith back. Yeah, I know, hilarious.

 

[MHSL82]

This is what you call "tortured logic". You are comparing a 16 - 13 game where the Rams got into the Niners' red zone one time, vs. a 36 - 32 game where the Saints had 432 yards and *no* problem scoring.

24-42 for 299, 3 TDs and 0 INTs is as bad as anything outside of a 5-INT Cutler meltdown? What an absolutely ludicrous comment.

He's talking about removing parts of the game and thus the 299 yards is not in that part of the game. I don't have the numbers, but when you run two 80 yard drives and most of them are passing yards, I assume, outside of those four minutes, that he had somewhere from 160-28 (his run) in those two drives. Therefore, he had around 160 yards. He was somewhere around 6-9 in the last two drives (one spike, the Hastings throw, and maybe one more), so that would take us to 18/33 for 160 yards (and two TDs early). Someone, maybe Crimson, did the actual stats once, so that would be more accurate. If you compare that to the 5 INT Cutler meltdown, Smith's game beats it, but it's still poor. If the game ended with KWs punt fumble after those numbers, despite it being KW's fault, we'd see Smith didn't come through.

Imagine if the Williams fumble had happened prior to either of those drives in the Saints game? We'd have been saying Smith wasn't capable of that. Imagine if the KW fumbles didn't happen in the Giants game? If he either did the Saints game thing in OT, we'd be saying he was more clutch, or if in regulation the fumbles didn't happen, we'd just say how the defense carried him again.

I don't remove those numbers because to me, that's what showed me more from Smith. The fact that he was able to answer twice, spoke more to me than all of 2011. Doesn't mean he's great nor better than Kaep, but that told me that he was capable of that. I'm a big Smith fan and I was worrying that something like the end of the Philadelphia game in 2010 was going to happen (hit while thrown, INT).

Thus, I don't think one can remove part of the game and make a real opinion on a QB, but when comparing two situations, removing part of the game is appropriate sometimes.

 

[rmilia1]

I know that both Colin and Peyton have many intangibles and Tebow has few. I think what is weak-ass is that you honestly do not have a clue what intangibles are, because if you did you would have explained them.

And, another thing that is weak-ass is even if you did know what intangibles were you wouldn't have a clue what Colin's intangibles are because you have never watched a 49ers game, yet you want to come across like you no everything about our team and our QB.

See, you want to be smart but you are not smart. You think you know - but you don't know.

B I have watched 6 49er games this year. Intangibles are the unmeasurable things, like downfield vision, ability to throw on the run etc. Leadership and experience are the 2 most important intangibles however and you lost out big on both of those with the move. Also you cant say CK has MANY intangibles. You havent seen enough of him to make that statement. Manning clearly does as does Tebow ( unless you want to tell me a guy with very little talent and very little intagibles went 8-5 as a starter in the NFL)

 

[rmilia1]

I know that both Colin and Peyton have many intangibles and Tebow has few. I think what is weak-ass is that you honestly do not have a clue what intangibles are, because if you did you would have explained them.

And, another thing that is weak-ass is even if you did know what intangibles were you wouldn't have a clue what Colin's intangibles are because you have never watched a 49ers game, yet you want to come across like you no everything about our team and our QB.

See, you want to be smart but you are not smart. You think you know - but you don't know.

LOL, just read this part. Its like the schoolyard in here. Well i am rubber and you are glue

 

[clyde_carbon]

B I have watched 6 49er games this year. Intangibles are the unmeasurable things, like downfield vision, ability to throw on the run etc. Leadership and experience are the 2 most important intangibles however and you lost out big on both of those with the move. Also you cant say CK has MANY intangibles. You havent seen enough of him to make that statement. Manning clearly does as does Tebow ( unless you want to tell me a guy with very little talent and very little intagibles went 8-5 as a starter in the NFL)

Experience is important - I agree. That's was Kaep's first start was four weeks ago, and not in the playoffs.

 

[rmilia1]

Experience is important - I agree. That's was Kaep's first start was four weeks ago, and not in the playoffs.

We'll see man. I hope for your sake you guys are right and 7 starts is enough to lead a team to a Super Bowl. I mean it has never ever happened before but theres a first for everything I guess.

 

[MHSL82]

I mean if the Niners are down by 4 in the playoffs vs the Giants and they get the ball back with a chance to go win the game who do you REALLY REALLY think the players themselves would have more faith in?? A guy that has already won a game like that and has played for 7 years or a guy with 7 career starts that has never in his life faced that kind of pressure??

I don't know about the players, but despite Alex's four minutes in the Saints game, I know most of this board would go with Kaep in that situation. Kaep played with house money against the Bears and Saints and he did well. Since then, he's been more cautious. But I think if we had our backs to the wall, he'd play with house money again. Not saying it would work every time, but IMO he'd play with urgency. I think if Smith played with urgency, he has as much chance in this offense (not Kaep's offense) to respond, but that, to me, is a wildcard - he'll either do it or he won't and I can't tell when is when.

Example: Smith is hesitant most of the game and every once in awhile, he'll throw his hesitancies out the window when the situation calls for it - after the Singletary exchange in 2010, he responded with no hesitancy (2 TDs and an INT when being hit while throwing - a hesitant Smith wouldn't have even thrown the ball - could have been a TD if not hit and we'd see that maybe as a turning point, even if minor). In the Saints game, he responded with no hesitancy.

But then we have games like the NFCC game, while we don't know what happens if KW holds onto the ball in OT, the previous drive there was hesitancy. I've said a few times that the most disappointing game this year was the Minnesota game, because I saw no urgency - not even the pick seemed to be a product of urgency - to respond. It said hesitant all over that game. I was more disappointed with that game than the Giants game this season, though I know the Giants game said more.

Harbaugh is rolling the dice with Colin, but he would have been doing so with Smith. Players wouldn't give you the answer to that question and you know this boards' answer. Don't know what else to tell you.

 

[rmilia1]

I don't know about the players, but despite Alex's four minutes in the Saints game, I know most of this board would go with Kaep in that situation. Kaep played with house money against the Bears and Saints and he did well. Since then, he's been more cautious. But I think if we had our backs to the wall, he'd play with house money again. Not saying it would work every time, but IMO he'd play with urgency. I think if Smith played with urgency, he has as much chance in this offense (not Kaep's offense) to respond, but that, to me, is a wildcard - he'll either do it or he won't and I can't tell when is when.

Example: Smith is hesitant most of the game and every once in awhile, he'll throw his hesitancies out the window when the situation calls for it - after the Singletary exchange in 2010, he responded with no hesitancy (2 TDs and an INT when being hit while throwing - a hesitant Smith wouldn't have even thrown the ball - could have been a TD if not hit and we'd see that maybe as a turning point, even if minor). In the Saints game, he responded with no hesitancy.

But then we have games like the NFCC game, while we don't know what happens if KW holds onto the ball in OT, the previous drive there was hesitancy. I've said a few times that the most disappointing game this year was the Minnesota game, because I saw no urgency - not even the pick seemed to be a product of urgency - to respond. It said hesitant all over that game. I was more disappointed with that game than the Giants game this season, though I know the Giants game said more.

Harbaugh is rolling the dice with Colin, but he would have been doing so with Smith. Players wouldn't give you the answer to that question and you know this boards' answer. Don't know what else to tell you.

Fair enough man. All I can speak to is my experiences in athletics and I know personally I would have more faith in the guy that had been their before but maybe thats just me. That is an opinion so doesnt mean Im right.

 

[Bemular]

B I have watched 6 49er games this year. Intangibles are the unmeasurable things, like downfield vision, ability to throw on the run etc. Leadership and experience are the 2 most important intangibles however and you lost out big on both of those with the move. Also you cant say CK has MANY intangibles. You havent seen enough of him to make that statement. Manning clearly does as does Tebow ( unless you want to tell me a guy with very little talent and very little intagibles went 8-5 as a starter in the NFL)

Okay, so you have watched six games one time! - Nice! And how many of those games did Colin start - I see only one national since he took over.

See, I've watched all 13 games 50.25 times. In addition, I have watched Colin in practice and in pre-season. I have seen every televised snap Colin Kaepernick has taken.

Like I said kid, you think you know - but you don't know; you want to be smart - but you're not smart.

 

[MHSL82]

As I suspected, you are claiming that stats measure intangibles? I think that is really stupid, but I will defer to the genius - you for an explanation on how stats measure pocket presence, throwing on the run, downfield vision or hitting tight windows among many other intangible skills and abilities.

Or do you want to say that the lack of statistics is a clear demonstration that Colin doesn't possess these skills and abilities?

And regarding your whole experience argument if Colin, at ~5 games of experience is already playing at the same statistical level as Smith then are we to conclude that either:
A) Alex didn't put his experience to very good use or
B) It isn't as big a deal as you want to make it out to be.

I was wrong again. I thought this post was good enough and would end this part of the thread, but alas, it didn't. I wondered why you didn't say this from the beginning, rather than asking him if he was sticking to his stats says all theory. I do agree that we don't know everything about Kaep right now, but even as a Smith fan, I think we've seen enough at least to not question the guy who has seen more (Harbaugh). If Kaep were struggling, I'd trust Harbaugh, but I'd slightly question it.

I think we could win with either Smith or Kaep - which I know some don't with Smith - I just think it's easier or better chance with Kaep. I wanted Smith to start and win it, but the win was more important, so I defer to Harbaugh,.

 

[clyde_carbon]

We'll see man. I hope for your sake you guys are right and 7 starts is enough to lead a team to a Super Bowl. I mean it has never ever happened before but theres a first for everything I guess.

This is a QB friendly systems that's not gonna require Kaep to do much if need be.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

Thus, I don't think one can remove part of the game and make a real opinion on a QB, but when comparing two situations, removing part of the game is appropriate sometimes.

Yeah, you can make a lot of QBs look bad if you remove the 3 or 4 best drives of a game. Doesn't make much of a point though, not sure what he was even attempting there. And even past that, he compared it to a 5 INT Cutler game which was one of the worst I've seen played. Nonsense top to bottom.......unless you are trying to prove someone is a "streaky" player, pointing to isolated parts of a game doesn't constitute much of an argument.

 

[MHSL82]

Fair enough man. All I can speak to is my experiences in athletics and I know personally I would have more faith in the guy that had been their before but maybe thats just me. That is an opinion so doesnt mean Im right.

Next season's playoffs, Kaep will have been there, so I'll see my confidence level in him then. If he doesn't play this year, we're facing the "no experience card then, too.

I'm confident in Smith now, but not certain. Based on getting to the SB, I'd have to say my list is the following: Brady, Peyton (only been to two), Rodgers (been to one and didn't fare well last year, injuries this year), Eli (never can count him out), Smith/Kaep (for different reasons, team oriented), Flacco (been to big games, but fell short), Roethlisberger (team restraints), Ryan (prior playoffs, could prove something this year). Schaub, I have no idea, but his team is good and he's fine.