Cousins Doesn't Deserve A Longterm Contract

[Breed]

Breed, that's all canceled out with zero running game and an absolutely abysmal run defense. The run defense is huge because teams figured out at the end that if you can run the ball against us, you can milk the clock and keep our offense off the field.

And if you're talking about rankings, how about ESPN's QBR list? It has Cuz at fifth overall. KC didn't just uplift the receivers, he did so for the entire team.

If you don't think so, who would you select as the team's MVP? And outside of Jamison Crowder, RGIII had these same guys and a still effective Alfred Morris. Why did he crap the bed in 2014?

You can't claim the run game contributed nothing to the good and the run defense was abysmal in your opening paragraph. Than claim Kirk uplifted the entire team which by association includes the run game and the run defense with his play in the next paragraph.

With the exception of JC and its only his second year. Nobody on the team performed above and beyond what they are capable of or had a career year. And the most important stat is missing that would proclaim Kirk's ability to uplift those around him. That being victories, at least more victories than the Skins had this year.

Yeah, Kirk's QBR is impressive as are his stats, That QBR and those stats aren't translating too wins though. In fact, when Kirk's stats are gaudy the Skins lost way more games than they won. Some have even opined that, myself included, the Skins have been playing hero ball with Kirk.

I'd have no problem with Kirk being the Skins MVP this year. He'd be a worthy and best possible choice. That still wouldn't automatically equate to him making those around him better.

Cuz Griff became far too full of himself, was ultimately exposed for not being too smart, maybe even not smart enough to be a conventional QB in today's NFL and a few other things. Most importantly though.. He refused to protect himself on the field of play and found out like so many other knuckleheads you can't tell shit to. They have to be shown and and in Griff's case a hard head literally made for a soft and broke the fuck up ass.

 

[skinsdad62]

You can't claim the run game contributed nothing to the good and the run defense was abysmal in your opening paragraph. Than claim Kirk uplifted the entire team which by association includes the run game and the run defense with his play in the next paragraph.

With the exception of JC and its only his second year. Nobody on the team performed above and beyond what they are capable of or had a career year. And the most important stat is missing that would proclaim Kirk's ability to uplift those around him. That being victories, at least more victories than the Skins had this year.

Yeah, Kirk's QBR is impressive as are his stats, That QBR and those stats aren't translating too wins though. In fact, when Kirk's stats are gaudy the Skins lost way more games than they won. Some have even opined that, myself included, the Skins have been playing hero ball with Kirk.

I'd have no problem with Kirk being the Skins MVP this year. He'd be a worthy and best possible choice. That still wouldn't automatically equate to him making those around him better.

Cuz Griff became far too full of himself, was ultimately exposed for not being too smart, maybe even not smart enough to be a conventional QB in today's NFL and a few other things. Most importantly though.. He refused to protect himself on the field of play and found out like so many other knuckleheads you can't tell shit to. They have to be shown and and in Griff's case a hard head literally made for a soft and broke the fuck up ass.

maybe they arent translating into wins because our defense is pathetic

 

[Skin'EmAll]

Technically I think the OP's thread title is incorrect. He does deserve a long term contract.
BUT...I guess a lot of us are trying to figure out if there is a guy who will be cut, drafted or acquired
that can perform at a high level for cheaper, allowing us to spend more money on the o-line and defense.

 

[redskinsfan]

You can't claim the run game contributed nothing to the good and the run defense was abysmal in your opening paragraph. Than claim Kirk uplifted the entire team which by association includes the run game and the run defense with his play in the next paragraph.

With the exception of JC and its only his second year. Nobody on the team performed above and beyond what they are capable of or had a career year. And the most important stat is missing that would proclaim Kirk's ability to uplift those around him. That being victories, at least more victories than the Skins had this year.

Yeah, Kirk's QBR is impressive as are his stats, That QBR and those stats aren't translating too wins though. In fact, when Kirk's stats are gaudy the Skins lost way more games than they won. Some have even opined that, myself included, the Skins have been playing hero ball with Kirk.

I'd have no problem with Kirk being the Skins MVP this year. He'd be a worthy and best possible choice. That still wouldn't automatically equate to him making those around him better.

Cuz Griff became far too full of himself, was ultimately exposed for not being too smart, maybe even not smart enough to be a conventional QB in today's NFL and a few other things. Most importantly though.. He refused to protect himself on the field of play and found out like so many other knuckleheads you can't tell shit to. They have to be shown and and in Griff's case a hard head literally made for a soft and broke the fuck up ass.

There's only so much that Kirk or any QB can do with the tools he has. He not only has to master his position, but then has to use his short passing game to substitute for the run and to engage in shootouts when the defense can't hold a lead. What Kirk had to do is, on a major scale, what starting pitchers have to do in post season series that last more than three games. They not only have to start, but they have to come in as middle relievers, close and/or start again on three days rest. You can only ask people like Clayton Kershaw to do that so many times before he comes up short. Same with Cousins, except for the fact that he had to do that all season long.

 

[Stymietee]

Just as a side note on Kirk's contract, he's scheduled to make $24million if he's tagged again. The general cap percentage that QB's get is usually 13% which translates this year into $21.6million. Let's say $22million in round numbers. Why would Kirk or his reps accept that vs. opting for the tag amount? They almost certainly will come to the table with that $24 million as their base starting point. Maybe this is what SM is referring to when he says he's not overpaying and staying within their salary structure. BTW: it's too late to wish, counter or suggest that they SHOULD have signed him last year, that time has come and gone.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Technically I think the OP's thread title is incorrect. He does deserve a long term contract.
BUT...I guess a lot of us are trying to figure out if there is a guy who will be cut, drafted or acquired
that can perform at a high level for cheaper, allowing us to spend more money on the o-line and defense.

Think about what you are asking. Of the 32 starting NFL QBs this season only 8 were not drafted by the team where they played. The NFC teams in this situation were CHI, MIN, NO & ARI (& SF at beginning of season). The AFC teams were NYJ, CLE, HOU & KC.

Only NO & KC could be considered teams w/ relatively effective or better QBs. Bradford for MIN may be considered marginally effective but also has potential injury and other concerns. The rest are either garbage, on the decline or have major question marks. The same is basically going to apply to just about all potentially available QBs this offseason. Trends like this in the NFL usually stand up. The Brees situation is 1 in a million & was brought about by a very unique situation in SD and a misdiagnose of an injury in MIA. A trade is highly unlikely & even if it occurs would likely involve high draft picks (like occurred for Cutler & Bradford which doesn't sound like a good deal to me).

The only way I see getting even a QB capable of making a deep run even in a few years is via the draft. The problem with that approach is that it is a crapshoot & you are sacrificing picks that could be used to address other areas of the team.

Just extend Cousins already.

 

[Breed]

maybe they arent translating into wins because our defense is pathetic

No argument for me on that front. But the defense also came up huge late in the 1st NYG, Cleveland, Minny, 2nd Philly and Baltimore games to seal victories. And in the Cincy game as well putting the offense in great position to win that game.

Whereas the offense came up short numerous times late in games and should had the 1st Dallas game salted away if Kirk is accurate with the deep ball in that game.

 

[skinsdad62]

No argument for me on that front. But the defense also came up huge late in the 1st NYG, Cleveland, Minny, 2nd Philly and Baltimore games to seal victories. And in the Cincy game as well putting the offense in great position to win that game.

Whereas the offense came up short numerous times late in games and should had the 1st Dallas game salted away if Kirk is accurate with the deep ball in that game.

i think this is more about real talent then anything else , we arent there yet

 

[SoCalWizFan]

No argument for me on that front. But the defense also came up huge late in the 1st NYG, Cleveland, Minny, 2nd Philly and Baltimore games to seal victories. And in the Cincy game as well putting the offense in great position to win that game.

Whereas the offense came up short numerous times late in games and should had the 1st Dallas game salted away if Kirk is accurate with the deep ball in that game.

Plenty of blame to go all the way around this season. As I pointed it out elsewhere the last 3 losses (to NYG, CAR & ARI) involved pretty pathetic rushing games & the inability to stop the run (or short passes) by the other team. The place kicking game also came up short on several occasions. I truly believe that this team can overcome a lot of this via the combination of improvement in Cousins' game as well as an influx of talent on the defense & perhaps a better RB. Improvements don't have to be across the board - just enough to influence a handful of pts and yds in several games.

 

[Breed]

There's only so much that Kirk or any QB can do with the tools he has. He not only has to master his position, but then has to use his short passing game to substitute for the run and to engage in shootouts when the defense can't hold a lead. What Kirk had to do is, on a major scale, what starting pitchers have to do in post season series that last more than three games. They not only have to start, but they have to come in as middle relievers, close and/or start again on three days rest. You can only ask people like Clayton Kershaw to do that so many times before he comes up short. Same with Cousins, except for the fact that he had to do that all season long.

Kirk didn't do anything that QBs with an offense capable of playing at a very high level, but have shitty defenses haven't done for years. Luck's done it his entire career. Jim Hart did it.......in his late 30s back when QBs didn't have anywhere close to the protection QBs do today, same for Dan Fouts, Derek Carr is doing it, Drew Brees has done it pretty much since the Saints won their Super Bowl. Rodgers has done it to, P Manning did it a time or two as well. And really? No, seriously, really? Now Cuz is Clayton Kershaw. I don't even know what to say to that. Except that this needs to be the official starting point where the man, the myth, the legend that is Kirk Cousins circa 2016 went off the rails completely.

 

[j_y19]

Kirk didn't do anything that QBs with an offense capable of playing at a very high level, but have shitty defenses haven't done for years. Luck's done it his entire career. Jim Hart did it.......in his late 30s back when QBs didn't have anywhere close to the protection QBs do today, same for Dan Fouts, Derek Carr is doing it, Drew Brees has done it pretty much since the Saints won their Super Bowl. Rodgers has done it to, P Manning did it a time or two as well. And really? No, seriously, really? Now Cuz is Clayton Kershaw. I don't even know what to say to that. Except that this needs to be the official starting point where the man, the myth, the legend that is Kirk Cousins circa 2016 went off the rails completely.

You know, Breed, I've seen you bemoan on this board, and probably in this thread about how just because you haven't bought into KC completely, you were a hater (I'm paraphrasing here). But you do the exact same thing to those of us that believe in KC and think he has potential to be a franchise QB as he continues to develop. You refer to us as thinking he is a legend, we put him in the HoF, etc (again paraphrasing). I haven't seen anyone call KC and elite QB, or the best in the league, or any pedestal placing terms. How do you justify that?

What's ironic is that those of your opinion and those that are sympathetic to supporting KC are really not that far apart. All of us recognize that KC is our best option for next year and probably the next couple of years. It really comes down to the belief that any QB worth his salt could come in here and replicate what KC has done in the last 2 years. You seem to believe his success is a product of his supporting cast and the scheme (at least that's what I garnered from the few hundred posts in this thread). Those on the other side, while recognizing that his receiving corps absolutely plays a part in his success, also believe that KC still did some great things, while playing without major supporting components. You apparently dismiss that. Which is fine. you point to QBs like Brees who has played his entire career without much of a defense. Very valid point. What you don't recognize, or choose to ignore, is that for the first 4 or 5 years of Drew's career in SD, he sucked. Literally. They basically ran him out of SD. This is not uncommon. Most inexperienced QBs in this league suck. What I find frustrating about your position on KC is that you must believe that there will be no more positive development of him. And I can't figure out why. He has all the attributes to be a QB plus the drive and work ethic to improve. Most important of all, he recognizes he has flaws. He has made huge strides in the last 2 years. I see no reason why he won't continue to develop and slay some of his still outstanding issues. I just don't see how a Brian Hoyer, or Fitzpatrick could come in here, even with this receiving corps and this scheme (BTW, there is nothing special about our scheme, variants of it are used league wide) and throw for 4000+ yds every season.

 

[Skin'EmAll]

Think about what you are asking. Of the 32 starting NFL QBs this season only 8 were not drafted by the team where they played. The NFC teams in this situation were CHI, MIN, NO & ARI (& SF at beginning of season). The AFC teams were NYJ, CLE, HOU & KC.

Only NO & KC could be considered teams w/ relatively effective or better QBs. Bradford for MIN may be considered marginally effective but also has potential injury and other concerns. The rest are either garbage, on the decline or have major question marks. The same is basically going to apply to just about all potentially available QBs this offseason. Trends like this in the NFL usually stand up. The Brees situation is 1 in a million & was brought about by a very unique situation in SD and a misdiagnose of an injury in MIA. A trade is highly unlikely & even if it occurs would likely involve high draft picks (like occurred for Cutler & Bradford which doesn't sound like a good deal to me).

The only way I see getting even a QB capable of making a deep run even in a few years is via the draft. The problem with that approach is that it is a crapshoot & you are sacrificing picks that could be used to address other areas of the team.

Just extend Cousins already.

I'm not sure how to respond to this. I've been away from the boards for a while so my blades of rebuttal are not as sharp as they may have been. This was a rather lengthy, well constructed response but it ultimately it appears we are on the same page in the book of Cousins. Just like your closing statement...I said extend Cousins.
But even the Redskins organization appears to be searching for a possible alternative. An Alex Smith of sorts,
manage the game, make a few surprising plays and let the defense be the identity.
Wouldn't they have signed him last year if they thought they had the franchise QB?

 

[Breed]

Plenty of blame to go all the way around this season. As I pointed it out elsewhere the last 3 losses (to NYG, CAR & ARI) involved pretty pathetic rushing games & the inability to stop the run (or short passes) by the other team. The place kicking game also came up short on several occasions. I truly believe that this team can overcome a lot of this via the combination of improvement in Cousins' game as well as an influx of talent on the defense & perhaps a better RB. Improvements don't have to be across the board - just enough to influence a handful of pts and yds in several games.

Apologies for the late response. I've been having puter issues due to weather I believe. And I know its a long post, but I felt it necessary to accurately portray how I saw the game against the Cards and what was a very key sequence within the game itself. First though some dope on the running game that day which I also felt was necessary for a clearer picture of nthis game.

Kelley had 14 carries for 63 yards for an average of 4.5 ypc. Not outstanding numbers, but far from pathetic. Add CT's 2 carries for 24 yards and Cuz's 2 carries for 0 yards, but one was a TD. For an overall total of 18 carries/87 yards/4.83 ypc/1 TD. That's not garbage or pathetic. Their slightly better numbers in fact than the 18 carries/84 yards/4.66/1 TD David Johnson had for the game. Johnson also had the huge advantage of playing against the Redskins defense. And at no point in this game, at least imo, was it necessary to abandon the run game cuz the score never got out of hand or dictated such a move. The biggest point deficit the Skins faced in that game was in the final score of 31-23 and that didn't take place till less than two were left in the game. So, the final tally of rushing for both teams in the game were as follows.

Team rush stats - Cards 24/88/3.66/1TD - Skins 18/87/4.83/1TD

Unfortunately we got yet another look at what was a much bigger problem than their running game for the Skins trhroughout in 2016. Red-zone scoring or lack thereof.

After a 4 yard run by Kelley from the Cards 18 yd ln left the Skins with a 2nd 6 from the Cards 14 yd ln. Cuz hits Ryan Grant for a 13 yd gain making it 1st n goal from the Cards 1 yd ln. This sequence of plays than took place.

1st and Goal at ARI 1
(3:05 - 2nd) K.Cousins pass incomplete short right to R.Kelley. PENALTY on WAS-D.Carrier, Illegal Shift, 5 yards, enforced at ARZ 1 - No Play.

1st and Goal at ARI 6
(3:00 - 2nd) K.Cousins pass short right to V.Davis to ARZ 1 for 5 yards (P.Peterson; Ch.Jones).

Back to where we started except we've effectively fucked off 1 play due to the penalty.

2nd and Goal at ARI 1
(2:14 - 2nd) A.Kouandjio and H.Bates reported in as eligible. R.Kelley up the middle to ARZ 1 for no gain (K.Minter).

(2:00 - 2nd) Two-Minute Warning

3rd and Goal at ARI 1
(2:00 - 2nd) (Shotgun) K.Cousins pass incomplete short right to D.Jackson.

On 4th and goal Hopkins comes in and makes a 20 yd FG.

On this 3rd and goal from the Cards 1 yd ln. Djax lined up wide right against Patrick Peterson in man coverage. Garcon lined up wide left with JC lining up just inside of Garcon. The Skins tried to score on a fade route pass from KC To Jackson and this is what took place.

Kirk immediately went to Djax on the fade after the ball snap trying to make a pass only Jackson could catch, but the pass was too high and outside never giving Jackson an opportunity to make a play. It would've had to be a great and pinpoint pass for Jackson to have a chance at a catch and truth be told. I was thankful at the time the pass was overthrown as a vision of the bigger, stronger Peterson muscling a pass away from Jackson, tossing him to the ground and jetting off for a 100+ yd pick 6 was looming large in my head.

Upon replay though we are allowed to see what transpires on the left side of the field with Garcon and JC which was....a pick route. At the ball snap Garcon drives hard inside picking the DB covering JC. JC going in behind Garcon came open immediately as the man covering Garcon goes with him. JC runs with unimpeded access into the endzone looking for a pass from Cuz. A pass that wouldn't of needed near the necessary accuracy and placement that it would've taken for Djax to score. I'd opine that the sequence of events that took place after Grant's 13 yd catch setting the Skins up at the Cards 1 yd ln. Was a much bigger problem and issue contributing to a Skins loss. Than anything to do with a lack of a running game that day.

Now I'm not blaming Kirk solely for this. Its possible Gruden instructed Kirk to go to Djax regardless the Cards's defensive alingment on the play. I don't know. And it was Carrier's penalty (not blaming him completely either) that put into motion everything that would occur on that drive after hism penalty. Besides there's more than enough blame to go around to numerous peeps including Gruden for what happened. Blame Kelley as well if you want for not getting a yard on the one and only real opportunity he got to score. But blaming the running game overall is totally off-base far as losing to the Cards that day.

Far as your complaints about the running game in the Carolina NYG games. They are valid. Though I also think it fair to points out. The Panthers finished the year as the 6th best defense against the run in the NFL.
The Gmen finished as the 4th best team against the run in the NFL.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Breed,

Fair response. However - let me pt out a few things. My main pt was that in total the rushing offense and defense in those games was weak. As I pointed out for Johnson from ARI you can't simply look at his rushing stats. He also had 90 yds in receiving which are plays that are very much like rushes. In contrast the Redskins backs only had 1 catch for 21 yds. You can dissect Cousins play all that you like. The fact of that matter is that if he doesn't get help in the rushing area & on the defense we are going to experience less than desired results.

In terms of the CAR & NYG defense - I don't care if they were ranked # 1 and # 2 in the NFL. Having your leading rusher have 11 & 33 yds total in an NFL game is a total joke. Redskins are going to have to upgrade this area & I have no doubt that they will make an effort moving forward.

As I have stated elsewhere Cousins needs to improve his game & I truly believe that this is very possible. However - upgrades are needed elsewhere so that he doesn't feel like he has to bear the responsibility of winning most of their games. Last I checked Aaron Rodgers was the only one really accomplishing something along those lines & he is a very unique player. Even Brady gets help from the rest of his team to include the running game and defense.

 

[Sharkinva]

Breed,

Fair response. However - let me pt out a few things. My main pt was that in total the rushing offense and defense in those games was weak. As I pointed out for Johnson from ARI you can't simply look at his rushing stats. He also had 90 yds in receiving which are plays that are very much like rushes. In contrast the Redskins backs only had 1 catch for 21 yds. You can dissect Cousins play all that you like. The fact of that matter is that if he doesn't get help in the rushing area & on the defense we are going to experience less than desired results.

In terms of the CAR & NYG defense - I don't care if they were ranked # 1 and # 2 in the NFL. Having your leading rusher have 11 & 33 yds total in an NFL game is a total joke. Redskins are going to have to upgrade this area & I have no doubt that they will make an effort moving forward.

As I have stated elsewhere Cousins needs to improve his game & I truly believe that this is very possible. However - upgrades are needed elsewhere so that he doesn't feel like he has to bear the responsibility of winning most of their games. Last I checked Aaron Rodgers was the only one really accomplishing something along those lines & he is a very unique player. Even Brady gets help from the rest of his team to include the running game and defense.

I think the underlying tone of Breeds message is that Cousins doesn't deserve to make Rogers type money unless he can do what Rogers does or better. To a degree, I get that. What I dont get is the concept being thrown out that because the Sea Hawks lucked up and found Wilson, or the Cowboys lucked out on Prescott, we would be better served to continue looking rather than (over)pay Cousins. Because at the end of the day, that is what some are suggesting.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

I think the underlying tone of Breeds message is that Cousins doesn't deserve to make Rogers type money unless he can do what Rogers does or better. To a degree, I get that. What I dont get is the concept being thrown out that because the Sea Hawks lucked up and found Wilson, or the Cowboys lucked out on Prescott, we would be better served to continue looking rather than (over)pay Cousins. Because at the end of the day, that is what some are suggesting.

And again - these QBs don't make these type of salaries because they are considered the 1st or 2nd best QB at the time (e.g. Cousins is not as good as Rodgers but that doesn't mean that he can't basically make almost or as much as him). This is all about timing. Cousins will likely make a large salary this offseason, but in a few years it will likely be the 9th or 10th best - or less. Just the way things evolve. People need to stop getting so wrapped up on the $$ amt (especially when the team can structure the contract in certain ways to protect themselves).

 

[Breed]

You know, Breed, I've seen you bemoan on this board, and probably in this thread about how just because you haven't bought into KC completely, you were a hater (I'm paraphrasing here). But you do the exact same thing to those of us that believe in KC and think he has potential to be a franchise QB as he continues to develop. You refer to us as thinking he is a legend, we put him in the HoF, etc (again paraphrasing). I haven't seen anyone call KC and elite QB, or the best in the league, or any pedestal placing terms. How do you justify that?

What's ironic is that those of your opinion and those that are sympathetic to supporting KC are really not that far apart. All of us recognize that KC is our best option for next year and probably the next couple of years. It really comes down to the belief that any QB worth his salt could come in here and replicate what KC has done in the last 2 years. You seem to believe his success is a product of his supporting cast and the scheme (at least that's what I garnered from the few hundred posts in this thread). Those on the other side, while recognizing that his receiving corps absolutely plays a part in his success, also believe that KC still did some great things, while playing without major supporting components. You apparently dismiss that. Which is fine. you point to QBs like Brees who has played his entire career without much of a defense. Very valid point. What you don't recognize, or choose to ignore, is that for the first 4 or 5 years of Drew's career in SD, he sucked. Literally. They basically ran him out of SD. This is not uncommon. Most inexperienced QBs in this league suck. What I find frustrating about your position on KC is that you must believe that there will be no more positive development of him. And I can't figure out why. He has all the attributes to be a QB plus the drive and work ethic to improve. Most important of all, he recognizes he has flaws. He has made huge strides in the last 2 years. I see no reason why he won't continue to develop and slay some of his still outstanding issues. I just don't see how a Brian Hoyer, or Fitzpatrick could come in here, even with this receiving corps and this scheme (BTW, there is nothing special about our scheme, variants of it are used league wide) and throw for 4000+ yds every season.

Various posters have said the following things over the past week, maybe two. That only Brady and Rodgers could do what Kirk has done in the system Kirk played in. That he deserves to be paid as much or more than Andrew Luck. Who's contract is the highest monetary-wise in NFL history. That they would not trade Kirk for any QB in the NFL right now. That he makes other players better/has uplifted the entire team. Put him on par with MLB's Clayton Kershaw. Many MLB in-the-peeps consider CK the best pitcher in baseball at presenty and depending on a few things. Some believe he could go down as the greatest pitcher in MLB history. That he had absolutely no help from the running game (I think dad is the only 100% pro Kirk or close to it poster who would disagree with that. That the Skins defense was the worst in the NFL and didn't give Kirk any help either.

I was joking when I used the "The man, the myth, the legend" line, during a conversation with kbso I believe, but on the real. While its probably too early for the legend part to apply. The myth part is already in full effect. The narratives that the D and the run game offered no help to or for Kirk this year for example is outright bullshit. That has been and will continue to be the thing I most disagree with. The natrrative that Kirk did it by himself with no help. or how it seems kirk's own shortcomings have been strangley forgotten or not talked about. But..................

If you believe or co-sign all or most of the above things said about Kirk. How can you not consider him as elite and a top tier type QB?

I have never said not to pay Kirk. Paying him Luck type money is imo not wise or warranted and will at some point likely bites the Skins in the ass.

I've never said Kirk can't improve. I question whether he'll improve enough. The 2-4 finish this year with what was there to be attained didn't do anything to alleviate questions I have about Kirk. Neither did his extremely poor start to the season. I've never touted Hoyer or Fitz to replace Kirk either.

I don't think our pass catchers made Kirk nor do I believe I've said that. I think that whether it was a spoken thing or not. Our pass catchers, specifically PG and JC, had certain roles within the offense and we rarely saw them beyond the scope of those roles. This year we've seen them and Djax diversify more from those roles. Garcon and JC have shown they have the ability to make plays downfield and Jackson showed he's more than a deep threat only WR. They (Skins WRs) didn't do anything they haven't done before though. No one had a career year or once in a career type season.

Far as the scheme. Is it special? Probably not, it fit Kirk though and Kirk fit it.

 

[j_y19]

Various posters have said the following things over the past week, maybe two. That only Brady and Rodgers could do what Kirk has done in the system Kirk played in. That he deserves to be paid as much or more than Andrew Luck. Who's contract is the highest monetary-wise in NFL history. That they would not trade Kirk for any QB in the NFL right now. That he makes other players better/has uplifted the entire team. Put him on par with MLB's Clayton Kershaw. Many MLB in-the-peeps consider CK the best pitcher in baseball at presenty and depending on a few things. Some believe he could go down as the greatest pitcher in MLB history. That he had absolutely no help from the running game (I think dad is the only 100% pro Kirk or close to it poster who would disagree with that. That the Skins defense was the worst in the NFL and didn't give Kirk any help either.

I was joking when I used the "The man, the myth, the legend" line, during a conversation with kbso I believe, but on the real. While its probably too early for the legend part to apply. The myth part is already in full effect. The narratives that the D and the run game offered no help to or for Kirk this year for example is outright bullshit. That has been and will continue to be the thing I most disagree with. The natrrative that Kirk did it by himself with no help. or how it seems kirk's own shortcomings have been strangley forgotten or not talked about. But..................

If you believe or co-sign all or most of the above things said about Kirk. How can you not consider him as elite and a top tier type QB?

I have never said not to pay Kirk. Paying him Luck type money is imo not wise or warranted and will at some point likely bites the Skins in the ass.

I've never said Kirk can't improve. I question whether he'll improve enough. The 2-4 finish this year with what was there to be attained didn't do anything to alleviate questions I have about Kirk. Neither did his extremely poor start to the season. I've never touted Hoyer or Fitz to replace Kirk either.

I don't think our pass catchers made Kirk nor do I believe I've said that. I think that whether it was a spoken thing or not. Our pass catchers, specifically PG and JC, had certain roles within the offense and we rarely saw them beyond the scope of those roles. This year we've seen them and Djax diversify more from those roles. Garcon and JC have shown they have the ability to make plays downfield and Jackson showed he's more than a deep threat only WR. They (Skins WRs) didn't do anything they haven't done before though. No one had a career year or once in a career type season.

Far as the scheme. Is it special? Probably not, it fit Kirk though and Kirk fit it.

So, as I said, we agree much more than we disagree. And when I say "we" (pro KC) I mean the vast majority of those that think KC is worth a long term contract but understand he is not without flaws (I recognize there are outliers on both sides of this argument). But I think we see him as a work in progress and the finished product is not done yet. Where we diverge, and here I speak for myself, is I tend to see the other pieces of the team that were not strong as something that he could only occasionally overcome AT THIS STAGE OF HIS CAREEER. I've seen your analysis of the run game, but I just disagree with it. Those stats you quote were inflated, IMO, with a couple of big runs at ends of games (btw, you readily use stats to promote the run game but discount KC stats). But when KC really needed a run game, 3rd and short, goal line, it was not there. Thus the coaching staff relied too heavily on the pass in those situations, putting the QB and receivers in difficult situations as the defenses knew we couldn't/wouldn't run. And the fact that the defense could not get opposing offenses off the field has a negative impact on any QB. You know this so I don't even need to explain further.

So I go back to the position of KC and his performance at this stage in his career. This is also I think where we diverge. He is a two year starter and has taken a historically bad franchise to 2 straight winning seasons and one playoff appearance. He did not do this by himself. But he absolutely had a major contribution in that success. As a 2 year starter. He also set numerous franchise records both years and was a statistical leader in the league. He was asked by the franchise to throw more passes over the last 2 years than just one other QB. And he did it very proficiently, but not error free. But his error rate in terms of pass attempts is way above most every other QB in the league. Moreover, and again I'm not sure you recognize or respect this, but he has made huge strides from the QB that spelled RG when he was injured. And he has done this mostly on his own. In the offseason and though film study. So it's reasonable to expect that he will apply that same ethic toward addressing his still outstanding issues, wouldn't you think? Finally, I would ask that you take a look at some of the better QBs in the league (past and present) and how they did their first 2-5 years and evaluate KC through that prism. You might come to understand that almost all QBs suck their first couple years as starters, but the good ones learn from their mistakes and eventually it clicks. You might also come to understand that KC is way ahead of most of these QBs in his development.

What is unfortunate is that the timing of KCs contact isn't in sync with his experience. If this was his 4th year as a starter, we would have a much better feel what this final product was going to be. But it is what it is. I couldn't care less what the dolllar amount is. Does he deserve luck money? Sure, why not? Because in 3 years, lucks contract will look cheap. The real issue is if you believe or not. If you don't believe that he is the best we can get, today, to lead this team for the next 3-5 years, then cut him loose now or franchise him and draft his replacement. If you do believe, then sign him immediately to a long term contract and move on to fixing the other major issues this team has. It's all funny money anyway. Just understand that if you don't believe and we have to use other premium resources to attempt to find his replacement, it will have a ripple affect on the rebuild and our ability to address the defense or other areas. And there is a very good chance that any replacement we acquire will be worse than KC.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Here are seven ways the Redskins-Kirk Cousins contract negotiations could play out

Good article on the various options that are available in the Cousins situation - puts me a little more at ease & makes me believe that they will get this done correctly. BTW - looking at the comments for that article really makes me appreciate this place.

 

[Stymietee]

Here are seven ways the Redskins-Kirk Cousins contract negotiations could play out

Good article on the various options that are available in the Cousins situation - puts me a little more at ease & makes me believe that they will get this done correctly. BTW - looking at the comments for that article really makes me appreciate this place.

Everyday that passes by without a long term deal in place between now and February 15th to me indicates another year on the tag. Between February 15th until March 1st the organization will be under even tighter time restraints to make a decision on him. This leads me to believe that the smart tag if it comes to that will be the Non exclusive tag,( btw: thanks for the article) where compensation is included in losing him. This is NOT to say that I want this to happen at all, just that 34 (54 until March 1st) days come and goes rather quickly especially when trying to hammer out a contract both sides can live with. What this actually does say to me and what I really want is for all of us to prepare for a turn of events that we may not agree with. I get it that arguing over the seemingly "smart" thing to do would have been finalizing the deal last year. Well that didn't happen and here we are again supporting our team hoping that the "smart" thing gets done again. At least we hope that it's the smart thing to do based on the very little that we know about insiders thinking. I personally won't set myself up as been the annual case for some when postulating what happens to and with this organization/team.