Cornerback Rankings

[Ray_Dogg]

Jenkins has Long and your brother from another mother Quinn. Come on man.

 

[BINGO]

Jenkins has Long and your brother from another mother Quinn. Come on man.

Quinn is a beast. But he doesn't make up the entire front seven! Again, people like to masturbating on stats that are soooo subjective (especially for DBs. Other than offensive lineman, corners are the most difficult borderline impossible position to grade based on stats). Yet we have a whole bunch of homie the clowns type characters on this board masturbating to their PFF's stats as if it really is relevant when looking at the entire picture.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Quinn is a beast. But he doesn't make up the entire front seven! Again, people like to masturbating on stats that are soooo subjective (especially for DBs. Other than offensive lineman, corners are the most difficult borderline impossible position to grade based on stats). Yet we have a whole bunch of homie the clowns type characters on this board masturbating to their PFF's stats as if it really is relevant when looking at the entire picture.

The only reason people are posting negative stuff about Jenkins because you, Dodub, and Sick have all already concluded that he should've been the pick in the first round. And you guys said it every week for the first few weeks.

 

[ChrisPozz]

Jenkins is much better than Culliver. Can you imagine what he'd do if he had a front seven such as ours.

Rumor has it Domenik Hixon has Leprosy, and Ebola. That explains the reason Cully couldn't get close to him and did not want to touch him.

You're in the New York area, right? How many times have you seen Culliver this year? Is it possible that one of the only times you've seen him is when they played the Giants and was responsible for 4 receptions for 78 yards? Roughly how much of that game, if you saw it at all, makes up your overall opinion of him this year? I'm not bringing up the comparisons to Jenkins in any of this right now. I'm just trying to see what's going on with you and this Culliver thing.

 

[ChrisPozz]

My last post, as I said, didn't have anything to do with Jenkins. However, I was just thinking about Jenkins and felt bad because when I posted all that stuff on him the last couple days I think I forgot to include the percentage of snaps both men (Jenkins, Culliver) have played this year.

I think most know that Jenkins sees more playing time than Culliver does so that kind of throws off the snap counts, among other things, obviously, but I still feel the need to acknowledge that because I'm aware of it myself and I don't think I said it before.

Jenkins has dropped into coverage 324 times so far (avg of 40.5 times/game).
Culliver has dropped into coverage 246 times so far (avg of 30.8 times/game).

Percentage of snaps Jenkins has played in each game: 99, 97, 96, 100, 100, 98, 100, 94.
Percentage of snaps Culliver has played in each game: 90, 88, 38, 51, 91, 31, 51, 81.

Jenkins thrown at 61 out of 324 dropbacks into coverage (18.8%).
Culliver thrown at 36 out of 246 dropbacks into coverage (14.6%).

I'm getting into dangerous territory now with these numbers because few things are equal between the two players. They both have different responsibilities in each team's defense and obviously have been forced to line up against different receivers. All those kinds of things.

 

[BINGO]

You're in the New York area, right? How many times have you seen Culliver this year? Is it possible that one of the only times you've seen him is when they played the Giants and was responsible for 4 receptions for 78 yards? Roughly how much of that game, if you saw it at all, makes up your overall opinion of him this year? I'm not bringing up the comparisons to Jenkins in any of this right now. I'm just trying to see what's going on with you and this Culliver thing.

So because I live in you assumed I don't 9ers games? I'm not quite sure why would you even asked that question. Put it simply, I have not missed one of our games this year, if that makes you feel better.

 

[BINGO]

The only reason people are posting negative stuff about Jenkins because you, Dodub, and Sick have all already concluded that he should've been the pick in the first round. And you guys said it every week for the first few weeks.

And that's fact! And your rebuttal is to come up with lame stats to prove something impossible to support/prove. You and Pozz are infatuated with PFF. Lately I've realized that the level of competency in regard to the regs is not what it used to be. You quality of things I see being promoted and advertised over the years have delluded. There's only one competent poster on this board who deserves to be mention and get complimented for being a person that is really intune of what really goes on with PFF stats. This individual tries to be objective and bring out the light to something that is subjective with regards to PFF. He shared his knowledge with you guys but that info didn't sync in. So I'm going to take this opportunity to repost what he had stated...and hopefully that will cause you to think twice when posting garbage from PFF in your pathetic attempts to make it seem as if it's gospel:

 

[BINGO]

Originally Posted by Bemular

In a couple words, Chris - complexities & subjectivities. The O'Line is arguably the most difficult position group to analyze. A credible analysis of the O'Line begins with understanding the protection schemes, the blocking schemes as well as the roles of each player in those schemes and for each team.

As an example of not knowing protection schemes, last year PFF dinged A.Davis for a Babin sack that belonged to Gore or Smith. All they saw was Babin blow-up the edge and charged Davis with the sack. (There were several posters here who did the same thing so it is not unusual to make that assumption.)


Even if PFF did have and understand this information they do not provide their analysts enough time to interpret and accurately evaluate the performance of each O'Lineman on every offensive play for every game. PFF uses a revolving door of too few volunteers for the type of analyses they are trying to produce.

This is a big reason why Neil went to a pay for premium stats so they could pay these individuals. Their offer bombed and last I heard they were still using the revolving door of volunteers. Thus, much of what PFF puts out with regard to these types of analyses is guess work.


PFF uses a pressure statistic that is purely subjective to each situation and personal to each QB. What determines when a QB is under pressure? When a QB moves? When a defender is within a certain distance? Some QB's sense and react to pressure differently so how is that measured?

Last year Smith high-tailed it out of the pocket during the Arizona game when the nearest defender was 6 counties away - Meanwhile Brady laughs at pressure. Again how would one account for these nuances consistently and equitably?


Attribution is another reason their O'Line analysis lacks credibility. Myself and many others could draw up a dozen or more scenarios where there is simply no way to know who is responsible for a sack or a pressure or a hit. Does PFF account for "unassigned or unknown" pressures, hits & sacks? Does PFF keep track of sacks, pressures, etc. allowed by the QB, RB, FB, HB, TE and others?


What about weighting the QB for his pocket presence and tendencies? PFF talks about how some QB's make their lines look good and some make their lines look bad - this fact needs either to be a weighted or footnoted consideration in the type of analysis they are doing.


How about time? I know PFF has discussed using time, thus far however, I have not seen any evidence it is being used or how. But there certainly should be a weighted difference between a pressure, a hit or a sack that happens in 2.5 seconds vs. 3.5 seconds?

And at what point is the QB on his own? 4 maybe 4.5 seconds? What about in pocket vs. scramble sacks, blitz vs. 3 or 4 man rush sacks and the list goes on.

Last year the average time for first touch on Smiths 51 sacks was 3.05 seconds with the sack (control) coming at an average of 3.45 seconds. While it would be helpful to know how quickly pressure arrived in those situations, as mentioned above, that would be highly subjective.


How does PFF stack up using comparative analyses? In some cases okay, while in others they are not even close. Here are just a few examples:

In 2011 PFF ranked the O'Line for the #1 rushing team in the NFL (the Broncos) 32nd - Dead last! They ranked the NYG's O'Line dead last for pass-pro. (Does this represent an arbitrary accounting for the QB factor? Who knows?) They ranked the Bears O'Line 31st in rushing when they were a top-ten rushing team, and again, the list goes on.


Clearly whatever weird science PFF is using to come up with their rankings it can be wildly inconsistent with tangible metrics - much like ESPN's QBR.

Don't misunderstand my sentiment about PFF, I do like what Khaled & Neil are attempting to do over there and in some lesser complex analyses they do pretty good.

However, sometimes when you attempt to create a clearer picture by peeling back the covers you realize there are too many inter-dependencies beneath the surface and you wind up actually creating a more clouded one. Such is the case with their O'Line analysis IMO.

 

[h0ckeysk83r]

Stats aside how is Jenkins better than culliver? What makes culliver so bad?

 

[ChrisPozz]

So because I live in you assumed I don't 9ers games? I'm not quite sure why would you even asked that question. Put it simply, I have not missed one of our games this year, if that makes you feel better.

I didn't necessarily assume. I didn't know, so that's why I asked you. Many times when you talk to someone about a specific team they follow and they don't live in that team's area, their opinions on something can be skewed because they have not seen the majority of, or every game. That's good, though.

I still don't entirely understand the whole Jenkins thing with you right now. I think I understand some of the things going on that makes you feel the way you do. I just had to find out if living away from the Bay Area had something to do with it. It's a little clearer for me now.

 

[BINGO]

My last post, as I said, didn't have anything to do with Jenkins. However, I was just thinking about Jenkins and felt bad because when I posted all that stuff on him the last couple days I think I forgot to include the percentage of snaps both men (Jenkins, Culliver) have played this year.

I think most know that Jenkins sees more playing time than Culliver does so that kind of throws off the snap counts, among other things, obviously, but I still feel the need to acknowledge that because I'm aware of it myself and I don't think I said it before.

Jenkins has dropped into coverage 324 times so far (avg of 40.5 times/game).
Culliver has dropped into coverage 246 times so far (avg of 30.8 times/game).

Percentage of snaps Jenkins has played in each game: 99, 97, 96, 100, 100, 98, 100, 94.
Percentage of snaps Culliver has played in each game: 90, 88, 38, 51, 91, 31, 51, 81.

Jenkins thrown at 61 out of 324 dropbacks into coverage (18.8%).
Culliver thrown at 36 out of 246 dropbacks into coverage (14.6%).

I'm getting into dangerous territory now with these numbers because few things are equal between the two players. They both have different responsibilities in each team's defense and obviously have been forced to line up against different receivers. All those kinds of things.

Thank you AMEN. Supporting cast, man vs. zone, downs and distance for each particular play (as a corner if it's 3rd and 28...would I be smart to play bump and run? Or do I play it safe by standing near the first down marker, and I allow the man that I am covering catch a 20 yard pass and tackle him then). How would the stats reflect my total yardage as a corner? Will the coach praise me for that? Yes? If so, will my stats show that I did an excellent job with that particular reception? These past couple games (Seattle/Cards), Cully has been lucky enough to have situations in his favor, such as down and distance. Knowing that it would take a long a$$ completion to convert a first down, homeboy simply decides to play the first down marker. He almost got an interception off Russel Wilson 2nd to the last play of the game only because he knew that the receiver had no choice but to go long. If he has to be on his Ps and Qs at all times (Giants game) not knowing if the receiver will go long and short, he will struggle. We better hope and pray that T. Brown does not get injured. Tust me! Count your phucking blessings fans that that hasn't happened yet.

 

[fordman84]

PFF has really high marks for Patrick Peterson. I think he's gonna be the best CB in the NFL soon.

I think he is a stud but those numbers didn't look right. That was written 10/25, so that makes more sense after he had a bad Monday night

 

[ChrisPozz]

And that's fact! And your rebuttal is to come up with lame stats to prove something impossible to support/prove. You and Pozz are infatuated with PFF. Lately I've realized that the level of competency in regard to the regs is not what it used to be. You quality of things I see being promoted and advertised over the years have delluded. There's only one competent poster on this board who deserves to be mention and get complimented for being a person that is really intune of what really goes on with PFF stats. This individual tries to be objective and bring out the light to something that is subjective with regards to PFF. He shared his knowledge with you guys but that info didn't sync in. So I'm going to take this opportunity to repost what he had stated...and hopefully that will cause you to think twice when posting garbage from PFF in your pathetic attempts to make it seem as if it's gospel:

I know what Bemular said about PFF and I agree that it should not be used as a be all, end all tool, nor do I think it has absolutely no value either like some people think. I know the shortcomings and deficiencies that site has because they, like just about everybody else, are not in the know when it comes to understanding each team's scheme, intent, etc.. I have not made it the be all, end all in my arguments and say almost every single time that it doesn't paint a complete picture.

I have not used PFF as my lone tool, nor do I ever, in trying to get an accurate picture on Jenkins or any other player either. I have posted numerous tidibts, quotes, facts, and transcripts from Rams and 49ers coaches who have talked about both players. I have yet to find anything that suggests anything close to the argument you're still trying to make on both players, though? I'd love to read anything that might make me change my mind right now, though? If anybody can show me anything or try explaining anything to me that would make me think about it harder I'd love to hear it.

I do get the emotional part of it, too. You have always liked Jenkins and said for a very long time that he would be this, he would be that, he would be worth this, he would be better than so and so, etc.. I'm sure you've seen things that make you think he can still be this or that and maybe he can be. It's very, very early. I get all that. I just don't get how anybody can say that Jenkins > Culliver right now. I'd love to be challenged and be able to see something that might change my mind if something credible is out there.

 

[h0ckeysk83r]

I know what Bemular said about PFF and I agree that it should not be used as a be all, end all tool, nor do I think it has absolutely no value either like some people think. I know the shortcomings and deficiencies that site has because they, like just about everybody else, are not in the know when it comes to understanding each team's scheme, intent, etc.. I have not made it the be all, end all in my arguments and say almost every single time that it doesn't paint a complete picture.

I have not used PFF as my lone tool, nor do I ever, in trying to get an accurate picture on Jenkins or any other player either. I have posted numerous tidibts, quotes, facts, and transcripts from Rams and 49ers coaches who have talked about both players. I have yet to find anything that suggests anything close to the argument you're still trying to make on both players, though? I'd love to read anything that might make me change my mind right now, though? If anybody can show me anything or try explaining anything to me that would make me think about it harder I'd love to hear it.

I do get the emotional part of it, too. You have always liked Jenkins and said for a very long time that he would be this, he would be that, he would be worth this, he would be better than so and so, etc.. I'm sure you've seen things that make you think he can still be this or that and maybe he can be. It's very, very early. I get all that. I just don't get how anybody can say that Jenkins > Culliver right now. I'd love to be challenged and be able to see something that might change my mind if something credible is out there.

This.

I just don't see any reason to believe Jenkins is better right now. But time will tell.

 

[BINGO]

I know what Bemular said about PFF and I agree that it should not be used as a be all, end all tool, nor do I think it has absolutely no value either like some people think. I know the shortcomings and deficiencies that site has because they, like just about everybody else, are not in the know when it comes to understanding each team's scheme, intent, etc.. I have not made it the be all, end all in my arguments and say almost every single time that it doesn't paint a complete picture.

I have not used PFF as my lone tool, nor do I ever, in trying to get an accurate picture on Jenkins or any other player either. I have posted numerous tidibts, quotes, facts, and transcripts from Rams and 49ers coaches who have talked about both players. I have yet to find anything that suggests anything close to the argument you're still trying to make on both players, though? I'd love to read anything that might make me change my mind right now, though? If anybody can show me anything or try explaining anything to me that would make me think about it harder I'd love to hear it.

I do get the emotional part of it, too. You have always liked Jenkins and said for a very long time that he would be this, he would be that, he would be worth this, he would be better than so and so, etc.. I'm sure you've seen things that make you think he can still be this or that and maybe he can be. It's very, very early. I get all that. I just don't get how anybody can say that Jenkins > Culliver right now. I'd love to be challenged and be able to see something that might change my mind if something credible is out there.

See?? Go back to the basic Pozz, and trust your eyes. You don't ALWAYS have to rely on "sources" to form an objective opinion on a person. Seeing is believing, isn't that the old saying. Go back to the basics and afterwards you should rely on secondary sources to form an opinion. I too can post garbage (that's what you have been doing) on Jenkins to make a case for him. Did you ever see me post this bullsh8t before:
Janoris Jenkins and the Top 10 Steals from the 2012 NFL Draft | Bleacher Report

No, because it is a moot point. Why because seeing is believing. The steal of the draft to me was and still is Andrew Luck followed by Griffin. I don't go around pasting any bs article hyping up Jenkins, b/c these same writers were the ones bashing him back when he was invited to participate in the senior bowl.

 

[NinerSickness]

I think he is a stud but those numbers didn't look right. That was written 10/25, so that makes more sense after he had a bad Monday night

Those numbers might've been before monday night. Either way, I think he's gonna be the best CB in the NFL pretty soon (except when he covers Michael Crabtree for some reason).

 

[ChrisPozz]

See?? Go back to the basic Pozz, and trust your eyes. You don't ALWAYS have to rely on "sources" to form an objective opinion on a person. Seeing is believing, isn't that the old saying. Go back to the basics and afterwards you should rely on secondary sources to form an opinion. I too can post garbage (that's what you have been doing) on Jenkins to make a case for him. Did you ever see me post this bullsh8t before:
Janoris Jenkins and the Top 10 Steals from the 2012 NFL Draft | Bleacher Report

No, because it is a moot point. Why because seeing is believing. The steal of the draft to me was and still is Andrew Luck followed by Griffin. I don't go around pasting any bs article hyping up Jenkins, b/c these same writers were the ones bashing him back when he was invited to participate in the senior bowl.

I've said what my eyes tell me. I was very vocal on my stance on both Culliver and Jenkins before the draft, during the draft, after the draft when they were drafted to their team, and have continued to give my opinion on both players throughout the early part of their careers.

I don't expect anybody to memorize everything I've said, but I've been very vocal in the Sunday game threads about what I've seen from both players. Anybody can find what I've said in the game threads. In Culliver's case the 49ers game threads during the games and in Jenkins' case the collaborative Sunday game threads. It's all there.

I'll repeat some of what I've been saying in those threads so nobody has to go try to dig it up. My eyes tell me that Culliver is a better player right now than Jenkins. My eyes tell me Culliver has had a better season than Jenkins has. Some of that being because of the quality of guys and coaches around him. All of that aside, I've said that I would build a defense with Culliver than Jenkins. I still feel that way.

Many of the concerns that I had with Jenkins as a prospect you can see today. He's aggressive jumping routes and getting beat on double moves. I've seen that in his play so far. He'll take himself out of his coverage area because he'll freelance to get an early jump on a ball causing him sometimes to get beat. He was prone to miss tackles in college and has been so far this season with 8, I believe. As I said to many during Senior Bowl week, he'll go for the big hit instead of the sure tackle and he's done that at least two times that I've seen so far this year. He's quick passing off blame to others when he makes a mistake in coverage. He had that problem at Florida. He did that Sunday at least one time.

What garbage have I posted on Jenkins or Culliver? I've already said that everything I've posted is just one piece of the puzzle. I've already said that you can't take one chunk of information, one large quote, one large opinion from one writer as the end all, be all. I don't think I've done that. Maybe I made it seem that way today?

Forgive me but I don't see what some writers calling Jenkins a draft day steal has anything to do with anything I've said? You'll have to explain that for me if you can please. I know you said before the draft, during the draft, and after the draft that that Jenkins would be a steal. We'll see. It's early. Maybe that's what you meant. I don't know.

I didn't understand your last paragraph either. I get that some things you just have to see to believe. I don't get how that pertains to what anybody is talking about, though? Forgive me again. If you're saying that you just have to watch Jenkins to see that he's better than Culliver right now, fine. I disagree that he has been and would like to see ANYTHING that suggets he just might be having a better season or doing a better job.

Forgive me if I think that when I read that "seeing is believing" from somebody that sometimes that's a way of getting out of explaining yourself when you're being challenged because you don't like something that somebody is saying. I do NOT know if that's what you're doing and I am not accusing you of that, but I have yet to find anything, talk to anybody, or see anything myself that suggests Jenkins > Culliver.

 

[NinerSickness]

I have a really hard time with that list. I wouldn't necessarily call a most of those picks "steals." Like Billy Winn for example: just because he's starting for the craptastic Borwns, doesn't mean he's a steal.

 

[imac_21]

Bingo, you are coming across like an absolute douche bag in this thread. All the numbers favour Culliver, but you're just going to ignore them. We aren't looking at stats PFF made up. We're looking at stats like completion percentage allowed, QB rating allowed, TDs allowed, yards allowed.

Saying Jenkins is better than Culliver this year is the equivalent of saying Alex Smith was better than Aaron Rodgers last year. Ignore all the stats. They don't mean anything. One raging lunatic says so.

 

[BINGO]

Bingo, you are coming across like an absolute douche bag in this thread. All the numbers favour Culliver, but you're just going to ignore them. We aren't looking at stats PFF made up. We're looking at stats like completion percentage allowed, QB rating allowed, TDs allowed, yards allowed.

Saying Jenkins is better than Culliver this year is the equivalent of saying Alex Smith was better than Aaron Rodgers last year. Ignore all the stats. They don't mean anything. One raging lunatic says so.

A guy who rates Culliver as the best corner in the league clearly has issues. And I'm the one. Amazing!

Jenkins = Alex Smith (mediocre qb)
Culliver = Aaron Rodgers (best QB in the league)