Calvin Johnson says the Lions need to win a Super Bowl

[TrustMeIamRight]

Lol, that PI thing has been your sticking point on Bentley for two years now. I think you read shit like that and make up your MIND on a guy without really watching him play. If you count both years, yes, he has more PIs than passes defensed. If you look at each year separately, though, he had far less PIs last year and far more passes broken up than his rookie year. That's visible progress, but you can't see that through your hater shades because you'd rather have him be shitty so you can say "I told you so."

TP -- He had zero passes defensed his rookie year. Is getting 5 of them an upgrade? I guess. But you have nowhere to go but up, as you had none your rookie year. He still doesn't have an interception in two years either.

This is progress to you? Progress to me is -- Taking over the starting CB spot opposite Darius Slay. A 3rd round pick was spent on him and he has hurt the team more than he has helped the team in the past two years.

It also has NOTHING to do with being a 'hater' or hoping he fails. I've already said -- I think Slay is going to be a quality player for Detroit, even though he was terrible at times last year. He showed glimpses of being really good at the end of the year and has all the attributes to be a very good CB. The problem is -- you only read or comment on the problems I have with the team and ignore when I make comments supporting the Lions.

 

[tpaulus_2]

TP -- If you follow along with the conversation, you would see we've been talking about TE's drafted in the 1st round. A comment was made about the Lions being the only team to draft a TE in past 6 years with a top 20 pick. I responded, irregardless of where they were drafted (here is where reading the entire conversation helps, as this means drafted anywhere in the 1st round), Detroit and Cincy are the only teams to spend picks on that position.

If you need me to spell it out for you on each and every post that we are still talking about TE's drafted in the 1st round, I will do so. One of my roommates in college grew up in the U.P., so I understand, no explanation needed.

And I quote:

You don't even have to mention the top 20 part. Only 2 teams in the NFL have spent a draft pick on a TE in the past 6 years, regardless of where they were drafted.

 

[tpaulus_2]

TP -- He had zero passes defensed his rookie year. Is getting 5 of them an upgrade?.

Umm... does 2+2= 4 today? If he had zero one year, then 5 the next, then yes, 5 is more than none, so that's an upgrade.

Perhaps this will help with those math skills:
Math Tutor | Sylvan Learning

But you have nowhere to go but up, as you had none your rookie year. He still doesn't have an interception in two years either.

So he improved markedly, but that doesn't matter because he did so poorly as a rookie? Oooookay... not sure how to respond to that...

I guess, and this is just me being a sunshine and rainbows koolaide binger, but personally I like seeing a young 3rd round CB showing visible improvement from his rookie year to his sophomore year. I guess I'm nuts, but I try to evaluate a guy based on how well he's played each year, instead of deciding after a shitty rookie season that he's garbage and will never amount to anything. That's pretty much exactly what you're doing, no matter how much you're about to try to spin doctor it up.

This is progress to you? Progress to me is -- Taking over the starting CB spot opposite Darius Slay. A 3rd round ick was spent on him and he has hurt the team more than he has helped the team in the past two years.

Maybe it's your expectations that are the root of this issue then? Bentley has the build and skill-set of a nickel back. If you're expecting him to make a run at the outside CB spot opposite Slay, then yes, you'll very likely always be disappointed in him.

I try not to tie my expectations and assessments to unrealistic goals. Bentley isn't cut-out to be an outside CB in a man-press scheme, he's too short. However, that doesn't diminish the progress he made last season one bit. He's our nickel back, something he very obviously got better at last season as the year wore on.

Nickel is an important position, basically the 12th starter, in a modern NFL defense, and he's our nickel back. I'd rather he excels there than worry about him not becoming our #2 CB.

It also has NOTHING to do with being a 'hater' or hoping he fails. I've already said -- I think Slay is going to be a quality player for Detroit, even though he was terrible at times last year. He showed glimpses of being really good at the end of the year and has all the attributes to be a very good CB. The problem is -- you only read or comment on the problems I have with the team and ignore when I make comments supporting the Lions.

I think it has plenty to do with being a hater. You've made up your mind that he sucks based on his play as a rookie and won't accept any accounts to the contrary. You're still stuck on the PI's and lack of passes defensed from his rookie year while the rest of us are more interested in whether or not he improved from his rookie year to last season (which he did), and how much more he may or may not improve again this season.

Also, I don't ignore your positive comments, they're just so few and far between that they're rarely discussed. When 90% of your posts are the same recurring whining about how god-awful our DBs are (even though only our CBs are in rough shape, our safety corps actually looks pretty good- something you'll never admit, though), then of course that's what I'm going to comment on. We get it, you think they stink, we can accept that those are your thoughts. However, you seem to be hell-bent on getting every person on here to both agree with your thoughts and also give you an "atta-boy" or something, because you sure won't stop telling everyone how much our secondary sucks pretty much every time anyone is discussing anything at all on here...

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

And I quote:

You don't even have to mention the top 20 part. Only 2 teams in the NFL have spent a draft pick on a TE in the past 6 years, regardless of where they were drafted.

I will spell it out completely for the intellectually challenged going forward. My apologies, TP. I didn't realize that having it stated repeatedly in this thread wasn't enough:

We've invested not one, but two 1st round picks on the TE position in the past 6 years. Only ONE other team in the NFL has spent a 1st round pick on the TE position during those 6 years (Cincinnati Bengals).

I don't think a TE in the 1st round will ever win the fan vote

I agree -- there is a reason why only two teams in the NFL have spent a 1st round pick on the TE position and interestingly enough, both teams have spent, not one, but two 1st round picks in that time frame. (Detroit with Ebron and Pettigrew -- Cincinnati with Gresham and Eifert).

you can find talent much easier at the TE position after the 1st round

There are lots of first round tight ends around the league.

Are you talking about Gronkowski and Hernandez? They were drafted in the same year and neither we drafted in the 1st round. Gronk was a 2nd rounder -- Hernandez was a 4th rounder, i believe.

Wait for it...wait for it...they drafted two within the top 20 though and nobody has done that

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Umm... does 2+2= 4 today? If he had zero one year, then 5 the next, then yes, 5 is more than none, so that's an upgrade.

sunshine, rainbows and lollipops. yeah -- huge upgrade to 5 pass defensed.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Maybe it's your expectations that are the root of this issue then? Bentley has the build and skill-set of a nickel back. If you're expecting him to make a run at the outside CB spot opposite Slay, then yes, you'll very likely always be disappointed in him.

I try not to tie my expectations and assessments to unrealistic goals. Bentley isn't cut-out to be an outside CB in a man-press scheme, he's too short. However, that doesn't diminish the progress he made last season one bit. He's our nickel back, something he very obviously got better at last season as the year wore on.

Nickel is an important position, basically the 12th starter, in a modern NFL defense, and he's our nickel back. I'd rather he excels there than worry about him not becoming our #2 CB.

I think Bentley has to worry about being an adequate starter, then maybe an average starter, before anyone starts talking about excelling.

As far as the talk about Bentley having the skill set of a nickel back -- I'd be curious to hear what that is in your opinion. Size-wise -- at 5'10", he is actually as big or bigger than half of the CB's named to the Pro Bowl. So explain this comment.

Bentley isn't cut-out to be an outside CB in a man-press scheme, he's too short

The guy who was considered the best cover CB in the NFL before his knee injury is only 5'11" (Revis). Guys like Brent Grimes, Alterraun Verner, Brandon Flowers, Tim Jennings, Joe Haden -- all went to the Pro Bowl at CB last year and they are anywhere from 5'8" to 5'11".

If you want to make an excuse for Bentley -- at least be honest and say he doesn't have the talent to be an outside CB. Height isn't the issue.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Please research the difference between man based schemes and zone-based schemes and then get back to me.

Also, we're talking about our nickel back (i.e. 3rd CB) and you can only offer up comparisons of Pro Bowlers around the same size? It's like debating with a petulant 12 year old with you... in your mind you already know all there is to know, it's just a matter of teaching the rest of us that, as your handle suggests, you're always right...

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Please research the difference between man based schemes and zone-based schemes and then get back to me.

Pretty much the response I expected. Why not just say -- I was talking out of my ass and don't have any idea if Bentley's skill set is ideal for the nickel role in our new defensive scheme or if he is even going to win the job.

Also, we're talking about our nickel back (i.e. 3rd CB) and you can only offer up comparisons of Pro Bowlers around the same size? It's like debating with a petulant 12 year old with you... in your mind you already know all there is to know, it's just a matter of teaching the rest of us that, as your handle suggests, you're always right...

YOU made the statement that he was too short to play as an outside CB. All I did was point out that some of the best CB's in the NFL are just as tall as Bentley and quite a few are shorter than him. I could go and list every CB that fall in that category if you'd like -- I just figured by just putting the guys named to the pro bowl last year would get the point across. That is why I asked you to explain how he is "too short" to play outside CB?

 

[Old Lion]

New Orleans still had one of the best offenses without Jimmy Graham. As a matter of fact -- when they won the Super Bowl over Indy a couple years ago -- Jeremy Shockey was the TE and he had all of 13 yards receiving.

They were not using the same scheme back then. Similar but more of a short passing with a few go routes. You don't understand scheme, that is obvious in your post about the defense. We get it. All that matters to you is what guys played on what teams and whatever myopic stats back up your jaded opinions. All the other variables are irrelevant to you.

 

[broncosmitty]

What was different then other than Jimmy Graham wasn't on the field to whip ass?

 

[gvsulaker82]

Damn 90 percent of the posts here are trustme and tpaul bickering.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

They were not using the same scheme back then. Similar but more of a short passing with a few go routes. You don't understand scheme, that is obvious in your post about the DEFENSE. We get it. All that matters to you is what guys played on what teams and whatever myopic stats back up your jaded opinions. All the other variables are irrelevant to you.

FYI -- 2013 New Orleans is more a short passing attack with some vertical routes thrown in than the 2009 New Orleans offense.

I realize I don't understand schemes, as yourself and TP do, but please entertain me and tell me how you see it the other way around.

 

[Rollingthndr]

I think Bentley has to worry about being an adequate starter, then maybe an average starter, before anyone starts talking about excelling.

I'm not here to argue that Bentley is anything magical but he did flash a few times last season. Maybe he was putting things together, maybe he is just an adequate player who flashes from time to time. We will definitely have our answer about 4 games into the season though.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

We will definitely have our answer about 4 games into the season though.

I agree -- the first few games will be very telling. I just don't see Bentley being the answer for the Lions on a game to game basis. I think he will end up being a backup.

 

[VulturesRule]

How long has it been since your last confession?

Not that you were asking me, per se, but it had been so long between confessions that the last time I did go to confession, the priest looked at his watch and said "Look at the time, gotta go."

Kind of takes all that solemnity out of the ceremony.

 

[gandydancer]

Damn 90 percent of the posts here are trustme and tpaul bickering.

you are keeping the number down...

 

[LPinSLC]

you are keeping the number down...

I'm trying to keep the numbers down.

I want to be a part of something.

 

[Old Lion]

FYI -- 2013 New Orleans is more a short passing attack with some vertical routes thrown in than the 2009 New Orleans offense.

I realize I don't understand schemes, as yourself and TP do, but please entertain me and tell me how you see it the other way around.

No they were not. They moved to a more intermediate passing game when Sproles got hurt in mid 2012. They had to adjust because the backs were no longer a threat in the passing game as much as Sproles and Bush before him.

That's why Graham became so important in the last year and a half or so.

Sproles was not the same (not sure why though it didn't make sense) and it is also why is not on the team anymore.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

No they were not. They moved to a MORE intermediate passing game when Sproles got hurt in mid 2012. They had to adjust because the backs were no longer a threat in the passing game as much as Sproles and Bush before him.

That's why Graham became so important in the last year and a half or so.

Sproles was not the same (not sure why though it didn't make sense) and it is also why is not on the team anymore.

Really? Brees YPA is 7.9 in 2013 and over 8.5 in 2009 -- I'm going out on a limb and saying 2013 relies much more on a short passing game. Your Darren Sproles comment makes no sense. He missed 4 games total in 3 years with New Orleans and only 3 games in 2012 and finished with 79 receptions that year.
.
Also -- in 2009 -- New Orleans top RB pair (Bush and P.Thomas) had 86 catches combined. In 2013 -- New Orleans top RB pair (Sproles and P.Thomas) had 148 catches combined. This fact alone will tell you how much more they used a short passing attack in 2013.

Saying New Orleans offense wouldn't go without Jimmy Graham is non-sense, as they won a Super Bowl running the same type of offense without him. Jimmy Graham is now just their #1 WR, who they line up as a "TE". It is why you see teams lining up their #1 CB on him many times. In 2009 -- Colston was their #1, with Devery Henderson and Robert Meacham rounding out their top 3 WR's. In 2013 -- Graham is their #1 with Colston their #2. Their #3 and 4 WR's were Sproles and P.Thomas with Kenny Still being their vertical threat.

That's why Graham became so important in the last year and a half or so.

Jimmy Graham broke the TE receiving yardage record in 2011 (I think Gronkowski actually had more than him that year though), when he had 1310 yards, to go along with 99 catches and 11 touchdowns. I'm going to guess he has been extremely important to the success of the NO offense before the last year and a half.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Remember OldLion, you have to just Trust him, he's always Right. Facts, opinions, perception, and reality be damned, whatever he says is 100% dead-nuts accurate (based mostly on how well a player performs as a rookie, or whatever tiny sample size best fits his argument.)


Trying to have a reasonable debate with him is about like this: