Bennett and Kam out...

[Screamin12th]

lets look at sacks.

Your 3rd down conversion rate should not double, idgaf who you're playing.

Lol @ acting like Bennetts absence has nothing to do with it.

Sure losing Bennett has hurt but not as much as losing Kam has. Also Clark is doing a GREAT job filling in for Bennett. Now he is not as good against the rush but he is not that far away. McCray though is tackling people 3 to 4 yards later than Kam would and these stupid dink and dunk offenses have been keeping the Hawks Defense on the field.

 

[Screamin12th]

Don't move the goalposts, scream. You said that it was a problem even when Bennett was playing. And now that I called on your bullshit you want to attribute a massive fallout solely to opponent? That's weak as hell, buddy.

Yes, the opponents are better on third down than previous opponents. But that doesn't hold as water as you're claiming when they're a combined 45% on third for the season and 59% against Seattle.

And I like how you tried to sneak in Atlanta to the second group even though Seattle dominated them on third down, and played them when Bennett was still healthy.

weak as hell because i am right? wow Then remove Kam and having McCray tackling people 3 to 4 yards later than Kam would on these dink and dunk passes adds to it. The struggles have coincided more with Kam being out than Bennett.

 

[SonnyCID]

weak as hell because i am right? wow Then remove Kam and having McCray tackling people 3 to 4 yards later than Kam would on these dink and dunk passes adds to it. The struggles have coincided more with Kam being out than Bennett.

No, you're not right...

I certainly hope Kam being back will fix a lot of the problems on third down

But you said that it a problem before Bennetts injury, and that was complete and utter bullshit. How you consider yourself correct about that is beyond any kind of reason.

 

[Screamin12th]

No, you're not right...

I certainly hope Kam being back will fix a lot of the problems on third down

But you said that it a problem before Bennetts injury, and that was complete and utter bullshit. How you consider yourself correct about that is beyond any kind of reason.

well that game proved that i was right. Having Kam out there changed SO MUCH on the defense. Issues on third down are still there ( this is NOTHING NEW on this team ). Like i have stated the Loss of Kam was the main reason teams were able to dink and dunk themselves right down the field, today they couldn't do that even with Captain Checkdown. Yes they did convert on some long 3rd downs ( whats new this team on 3rd and long has always stunk for some reason. )

3rd downs have been a issue for more than just this season and the Hawks had a string of games last season where they were giving up 50%+ on third downs and in 2014 i think they had like 6 games in a row of 50%+ conv on 3rd downs, not going to dig through the stats to find it but you can if you want.

Since Wilson has been the QB this team struggles in the first 8 weeks in games and it rotates from Offense to defense. It doesn't have anything to do with Bennett as he isn't guarding WR and RB on those 3 to 5 yard dink and dunk plays. But it has a lot to do with Kam. When Kam is out there they stop at the 3 to 4 yards when he is not out there they get YAC and convert. If you want to go back and look at all the games Kam has missed you will see a trend where the Hawks give up around 50% or better on 3rd downs when he is not playing.

Having Bennett back will help this defense in one very good way and that is it will allow the defensive front to stay fresher when they sub Clark in for him giving Bennett time to stay fresh but he is not the pass rusher so many believe him to be. Great against the run and disruptive but also a penalty just waiting to happen. Having Clark play also allows the Hawks to not have to worry about signing Bennett to a big contract that will tie their hands and make them cut someone like Britt and Avril. Clark is getting the exp. needed to take over and to be honest there will be very little drop off between them but Clark who is all ready becoming a stud has a MUCH higher ceiling as Bennett was not that good at Clark's age ( 23, 1 sack 2 tackles, yep that's all he had).

I find it also funny when people say i hate Bennett. I wanted him on this team when he was a rookie and was pissed when they released him. More than just pissed and i bet half of you didn't know he was here when he was a rookie. (Undrafted free agent in 2009 and Jim Mora let him go). If we could go back to the ESPN boards you could see my praise posts of Bennett in 2009 and how happy i was when we got him back. Clark last year was everything Bennett was in 2009 +10 lol.

 

[SonnyCID]

well that game proved that i was right. Having Kam out there changed SO MUCH on the defense. Issues on third down are still there ( this is NOTHING NEW on this team ). Like i have stated the Loss of Kam was the main reason teams were able to dink and dunk themselves right down the field, today they couldn't do that even with Captain Checkdown. Yes they did convert on some long 3rd downs ( whats new this team on 3rd and long has always stunk for some reason. )

3rd downs have been a issue for more than just this season and the Hawks had a string of games last season where they were giving up 50%+ on third downs and in 2014 i think they had like 6 games in a row of 50%+ conv on 3rd downs, not going to dig through the stats to find it but you can if you want.

Since Wilson has been the QB this team struggles in the first 8 weeks in games and it rotates from Offense to defense. It doesn't have anything to do with Bennett as he isn't guarding WR and RB on those 3 to 5 yard dink and dunk plays. But it has a lot to do with Kam. When Kam is out there they stop at the 3 to 4 yards when he is not out there they get YAC and convert. If you want to go back and look at all the games Kam has missed you will see a trend where the Hawks give up around 50% or better on 3rd downs when he is not playing.

Having Bennett back will help this defense in one very good way and that is it will allow the defensive front to stay fresher when they sub Clark in for him giving Bennett time to stay fresh but he is not the pass rusher so many believe him to be. Great against the run and disruptive but also a penalty just waiting to happen. Having Clark play also allows the Hawks to not have to worry about signing Bennett to a big contract that will tie their hands and make them cut someone like Britt and Avril. Clark is getting the exp. needed to take over and to be honest there will be very little drop off between them but Clark who is all ready becoming a stud has a MUCH higher ceiling as Bennett was not that good at Clark's age ( 23, 1 sack 2 tackles, yep that's all he had).

I find it also funny when people say i hate Bennett. I wanted him on this team when he was a rookie and was pissed when they released him. More than just pissed and i bet half of you didn't know he was here when he was a rookie. (Undrafted free agent in 2009 and Jim Mora let him go). If we could go back to the ESPN boards you could see my praise posts of Bennett in 2009 and how happy i was when we got him back. Clark last year was everything Bennett was in 2009 +10 lol.

Dude, you said that third down was a problem this year before Bennett went down.

There is nothing that can prove you correct on that. You can't be leading the league in something and consider it an issue, regardless of who else is missing or who you're playing.

 

[JMR]

I don't know why we need to decide if being without Kam hurts more than being minus Bennett. They don't play the same position and we don't have to pick 1 or the other to be out there.

This defense is better with Bennett than without. Same for Kam. Jeezus people.

 

[Anointed One]

I thought Kam would be a bit rusty last night since he's missed so much time... He played phenomenal... I don't think we would've won that game if Kam didn't play...

 

[JMR]

I thought Kam would be a bit rusty last night since he's missed so much time... He played phenomenal... I don't think we would've won that game if Kam didn't play...

Very well could be true. It was an overall superb team performance. I don't think we win if Boykin is playing instead of RW either.

 

[SonnyCID]

I don't know why we need to decide if being without Kam hurts more than being minus Bennett. They don't play the same position and we don't have to pick 1 or the other to be out there.

This defense is better with Bennett than without. Same for Kam. Jeezus people.

I totally agree. And ftr, nobody ever questioned Kams importance or impact. The debate was about Bennetts absence and how it had affected the third down defense. Kam came in to the fold when scream move the goal posts for his argument, again.

 

[dude82]

This is slowly turning into the Bevell argument. I think we're looking at this a bit wrong here. This shouldn't be a Kam vs. Bennett debate. They're both important to this defense and neither of their replacements bring quite as much to the table as they do. You replace either one and you're looking at a worse defensive unit than if you have them both in the lineup.

Kam has a well earned reputation for toughness and intimidation that McCray does not have. When he's on the field, even if he doesn't make a bone rattling tackle or turn into a brick wall with arms and legs in every game, his reputation alone causes incompletions when receivers develop alligator arms in his vicinity and runners get tackled by one of more of our other 10 defenders because they see Kam heading for them and know what's coming if he gets there first.

Bennett has, on several occasions this season, been described by the opposing team's coaches and/or offensive players as the best defensive player in the league. Whether they actually think he's the best defensive player in the league or not, they wouldn't be saying it if he wasn't at least in the conversation. He has a well earned reputation for versatility and for being able to get after the quarterback and the ball carrier no matter where you put him on the defensive line. In a sense, that makes him just as intimidating as Kam. Offenses gameplan to stop him from getting to the quarterback and take their chances with the other guys on the line, which is part of the reason why those guys are as good as they are. For that reason, Bennett's value can't be determined just by looking at the stat sheet.

You can replace both guys physically, as the Hawks have had to this season, but you can't replace the psychological and strategic edge that having them on the field gives the Seahawks defense. This shouldn't be an either/or proposition. They don't play the same position and they're not expected to do the same things. If they did/were, this would be a debate worth having. Instead, it's an argument that makes me wonder if some people on this board just aren't happy if they're not arguing about something.

 

[Screamin12th]

Dude, you said that third down was a problem this year before Bennett went down.

There is nothing that can prove you correct on that. You can't be leading the league in something and consider it an issue, regardless of who else is missing or who you're playing.

nothing to prove me correct hmm
week one last season Rams had over 50% conversion rate ( Kam was out Bennett was not )
2014 Kam missed a game and the Giants knocked down a 50% conv rate.
i am just going through games KAM missed and there is a pattern here. This defense struggles more when Kam is not on the field than it does with out Bennett. I know it sucks to have everything prove you wrong but man let it go. Kam is the Heart of this defense not Bennett, Kam is the main reason the 3rd down conv were out of control and Kam not being out there was the main reason teams dinked and dunked ( 3 yard check down passes going for 1st downs ) down the field.

but i get it you are blind and do not want to believe. Thats ok pretend it's not the truth and keep believing that you know everything. I wont spend another minute digging through stats on this because i have all ready spent HOURS doing so and have proved a point. Some people just wont give up ( me included ) so this is my last post on this topic. Argue with yourself if you want.

 

[SonnyCID]

nothing to prove me correct hmm
week one last season Rams had over 50% conversion rate ( Kam was out Bennett was not )
2014 Kam missed a game and the Giants knocked down a 50% conv rate.
i am just going through games KAM missed and there is a pattern here. This defense struggles more when Kam is not on the field than it does with out Bennett. I know it sucks to have everything prove you wrong but man let it go. Kam is the Heart of this defense not Bennett, Kam is the main reason the 3rd down conv were out of control and Kam not being out there was the main reason teams dinked and dunked ( 3 yard check down passes going for 1st downs ) down the field.

but i get it you are blind and do not want to believe. Thats ok pretend it's not the truth and keep believing that you know everything.

So now you're moving the goal posts to last season? Wow.

 

[dude82]

nothing to prove me correct hmm
week one last season Rams had over 50% conversion rate ( Kam was out Bennett was not )
2014 Kam missed a game and the Giants knocked down a 50% conv rate.
i am just going through games KAM missed and there is a pattern here. This defense struggles more when Kam is not on the field than it does with out Bennett. I know it sucks to have everything prove you wrong but man let it go. Kam is the Heart of this defense not Bennett, Kam is the main reason the 3rd down conv were out of control and Kam not being out there was the main reason teams dinked and dunked ( 3 yard check down passes going for 1st downs ) down the field.

but i get it you are blind and do not want to believe. Thats ok pretend it's not the truth and keep believing that you know everything. I wont spend another minute digging through stats on this because i have all ready spent HOURS doing so and have proved a point. Some people just wont give up ( me included ) so this is my last post on this topic. Argue with yourself if you want.

The Patriots converted 60% of their 3rd downs just last night with Bennett out and Kam in. The Jets game - the last time they both played in the same game - saw the Seahawks defense allow a 47% 3rd down conversion rate. The Falcons game was the first of two games to feature Bennett without Kam on the field and the Hawks defense held Atlanta to a 27% 3rd down conversion rate. Bennett ended up getting hurt in that game and played hurt the following week against Arizona. The Seahawks defense allowed Arizona to convert on 48% of their 3rd downs that week. The two games after that we were without both Bennett and Chancellor, and the 3rd down conversion rates against the defense in those games were 60% and 71% respectively. Last night's game feature Chancellor and not Bennett for the first time all season and New England 3rd down completion rate was, as I said, at 60%.

In other words, in the two games that we had Bennett in the lineup but not Kam, our third down conversion rate was 20% better in the first game and only 1% worse in the second game than it had been in the last game to feature both players. In Kam's only game without Bennett so far, the third down conversion rate for the Seahawks defense didn't get any worse than it had been without both of them, but it also didn't get any better. It's also worth noting about the Atlanta game that they had the #1 offense in the league and our defense, without Kam but with Bennett, held them to 27% on third down. Holding a high powered offense like that to 27% on third down is pretty impressive, especially when you do it without one of your best players.

None of this is to say that Kam isn't valuable to this defense or that we didn't miss him while he was gone. He's incredibly valuable and it was obvious that we missed his presence on the field. The point is that you can't just cherry pick games that suit your argument and ignore the ones that don't. This is a defense that, outside of a couple of games, just hasn't been very good on 3rd down as a unit in a couple of months. Part of that is on the offense not being able to sustain a drive long enough to give the D a breather for a few weeks and part of it is just players on defense being uncharacteristically not very good at times.

 

[Screamin12th]

love how you compare good teams/bad team and call it good. many of the NE first downs were longer passes and some 1 yard blount and Brady sneaks. -.- , With Kam in what was the ToP for NE and how many plays did they run compared to some lower level teams that were getting 35+ ToP? NE Offense is WAY better than the Jets, WAY better than the Bills. How many 3rd downs were converted? How many from these lesser teams? view the whole picture not just little scraps . I said that in the NE game ( you happened to IGNORE it ) that 3rd downs were still a issue but they were those 3rd and LONGS again ( hawks Defense sucks at 3rd and a mile LMAO always have for some reason )

The Hawks were able to stop NE on 3rd downs enough to keep them from having 40+ minutes of ToP. As far as the Offense we ALL know they had been shitty ( 3 and outs ) for the past month. Whats new.

some times i wonder if some people just really are that stupid?

not going to bang my head on a wall over and over because it obviously will never get through that solid stone block you call a brain pan. lol.

 

[Screamin12th]

So now you're moving the goal posts to last season? Wow.

No i am showing a trend and bringing LAST ( and 2012, 2013, 2014 ) season into it to prove a point. This is nothing new ( 3rd down issues when Kam is out )

holey hell we got a bunch of jerky brains here. -.-

what happened to knowledgeable fans?

Like many say " some times you got to look at it with the eye test stats can lie" Some of you have to do that more. Yes NE converted on 60% but they only converted 6 first downs, lets look at some of the other teams.
Buff 12
NO 9
AZ 10

NE did not get to face a ton of 3rd downs ( offense produced to keep them off the field and defense created TO)

there is a HUGE difference between 6-10 and 12-20 even though both are 60%

also when a team converts a 3rd and 1 it's not the same as converting a 3rd and 5 like we had seen for many weeks with all the dink and dunk passes.

Pats had 3 first downs where it was 3rd and less than 5 with QB sneaks and Blount 1 yard runs
and they had 2 on LONG plays that have ALWAYS gave this team problems ( for YEARS going back to Holmgren )

the ones they missed 3rd and 7, 3rd and 1, 3rd and 11. We were seeing people ding and dunk us on these mid range 3rd downs for WEEKS and they didnt get but 1 of those where as weeks prior they were converting on about 80% of those. Why do you think that is? Because it was harder to pass and GET those dink and dunk first downs like they were doing BEFORE Kam got back

 

[Screamin12th]

This Sundays Defense was WAY WAY WAY better than Last sundays, END OF STORY!
What was different?
offense played better and Kam, Kam is the Heart of this defense and even after the game you heard people saying the difference was "KAM" so go ahead and not believe the players.

NE #2 in 3rd down %
Jets #19


AZ converted less than 50% but they faced 21 of them TWEENTY ONE! and had the ball for over 40 minutes. Do you not see the difference here? do you not get it? just admit you don't get it and move along. You have never played football obviously.

 

[Screamin12th]

Here lets make it easier for some of you.
Passing first down average with and with out Kam

W/O Kam 16 per game average ( passing first downs )
With Kam 9.8 per Game Average ( passing first downs )
almost 40% better with Kam.

Like i said the dink and dunk passing game was killing the Hawks not so much when Kam is there. Bennett's effect is only 2% ( 40%> 2% )
Bennett has a better effect on Rushing first downs but on rushing downs with out Kam it also goes up more than it does with out Bennett.
end of thread.

 

[chf]

For a guy who likes Bennett, you sure are emotionally invested in this argument.

 

[SonnyCID]

Wow. All that just to avoid admitting that you were wrong.

 

[SonnyCID]

not going to bang my head on a wall over and over.

Wrong again.