POLL Bartolo Colon and the HOF

[navamind]

2452 hits
382 homeruns
298/352/502/854/128

Nope

Feel free to find a post where I supported Jim Rice's induction. I'll wait.

 

[StanMarsh51]

2452 hits
382 homeruns
298/352/502/854/128

Nope

You do realize @navamind has stated numerous tomes in the past that Rice being on the HOF is a joke...

Here's one of them..
Hate the DH? Don't think Ortiz belongs in the HOF? Bob Ryan and Edgar Martinez just shamed you...

Are you still peddling false notions that Omar Vizquel was more all-star worthy than Jeter when Jeter had better numbers?

 

[PolarVortex]

You do realize @navamind has stated numerous tomes in the past that Rice being on the HOF is a joke...

Here's one of them..
Hate the DH? Don't think Ortiz belongs in the HOF? Bob Ryan and Edgar Martinez just shamed you...

Are you still peddling false notions that Omar Vizquel was more all-star worthy than Jeter when Jeter had better numbers?

Relax, ladies. It's not a personal attack on Navamind. His post seemed a natural place for me to respond to the thread.

Colon should not even be considered for the HOF, but there are plenty of players in there now that never should have been considered, so I'm not going to be too shocked if Colon finds some support for entry.

 

[PolarVortex]

You do realize @navamind has stated numerous tomes in the past that Rice being on the HOF is a joke...

Here's one of them..
Hate the DH? Don't think Ortiz belongs in the HOF? Bob Ryan and Edgar Martinez just shamed you...

Are you still peddling false notions that Omar Vizquel was more all-star worthy than Jeter when Jeter had better numbers?

I peddle several accurate notions about Jetsie Poo:
1. Visquel was a far superior defensive SS.
2. Jetes was never in any given season, the best player at his position.
3. For a non-power hitter, the strikeouts he piled up are ridiculous.
4. Jeter was one of the most overrated and overpaid players in the history of the game and his gold gloves are a joke.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I peddle several accurate notions about Jetsie Poo:
1. Visquel was a far superior defensive SS.

Offense is worth more than defense, and this isn't really debatable. A guy who's an A hitter and C fielder is worth more than a guy who's a C hitter and A fielder.

What numbers show that Vizquel was ever more all star worthy than Jeter?

2. Jetes was never in any given season, the best player at his position.

Per WAR, Jeter was the best overall SS in baseball 1999 (and led then entire AL in WAR). He was also the AL's best SS via WAR in multiple other seasons.

3. For a non-power hitter, the strikeouts he piled up are ridiculous.

Again with the strikeouts nonsense...if he had popped up 40 more times a season and as a result struck out 40x less, would his seasons have been that much better? The answer is simple...

 

[PolarVortex]

Offense is worth more than defense, and this isn't really debatable. A guy who's an A hitter and C fielder is worth more than a guy who's a C hitter and A fielder.

Cute the way you try to pass off your opinion as fact when, in reality, it is your opinion and nothing more. Also, it is an opinion that the people who voted in Mazeroski and Ozzie Smith do not agree with.

Again with the strikeouts nonsense...if he had popped up 40 more times a season and as a result struck out 40x less, would his seasons have been that much better? The answer is simple...[/QUOTE]

"When a runner is on second base with one out, it's better to strikeout than a ground out between first and second." ~ Stan the brain surgeon Marsh 51.

 

[PolarVortex]

Offense is worth more than defense, and this isn't really debatable. A guy who's an A hitter and C fielder is worth more than a guy who's a C hitter and A fielder.

What numbers show that Vizquel was ever more all star worthy than Jeter?




Per WAR, Jeter was the best overall SS in baseball 1999 (and led then entire AL in WAR). He was also the AL's best SS via WAR in multiple other seasons.



Again with the strikeouts nonsense...if he had popped up 40 more times a season and as a result struck out 40x less, would his seasons have been that much better? The answer is simple...

More proof that WAR is a flawed statistic. ARod had a higher runs scored per games played rate and a higher RBI per games played rate along with being a better defensive SS.

 

[StanMarsh51]

More proof that WAR is a flawed statistic. ARod had a higher runs scored per games played rate and a higher RBI per games played rate along with being a better defensive SS.

The 1950s called...they want their outdated logic back.

Here's a scenario to show how flawed your reliance on runs and RBIs are:

Player A singles
Player B doubles, moving player A to 3rd
Player C hits a sac fly, scoring player A

Using your flawed logic, player B wasn't a big contributor to the run since he didn't get a run or RBI.


If you wanna get an idea of who was better with runners on in 1999:
A-Rod - .302 AVG, .965 OPS
Jeter - .367 AVG, 1.017 OPS

Or we can also look at their numbers with RISP:
A-Rod - .288 AVG, .870 OPS
Jeter - .357 AVG, 1.027 OPS

Keep telling yourself that A-Rod was the guy you wanted up when runners were on that year over Jeter....you're delusional...

 

[StanMarsh51]

Cute the way you try to pass off your opinion as fact when, in reality, it is your opinion and nothing more. Also, it is an opinion that the people who voted in Mazeroski and Ozzie Smith do not agree with.
.

This is laughable..

Mazeroski was voted in by the Veteran's Committee (ie - many of his buddies). He never came close to being voted in by the writers. Using a guy who it took 40 years after his last game to get in isn't helping your argument.

Ozzie Smith was considered a good offensive shortstop for his day (you must not remember how weak the average offense for shortstop was in the '80s and early to mid '90s). Eight times was his offensive WAR at 3+, and being at 3+ means you're a good hitter at your position. Not to mention, he had plenty of seasons where his OPS was 50+ points higher than the SS average (in addition to being a historically great basestealer). Let's not act like Smith was Rey Ordonez on the offensive side of things..

 

[navamind]

Maz is one of the worst players in the HOF. And to add what Stan said about Ozzie's batting stats, he was also a great baserunner.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Cute the way you try to pass off your opinion as fact when, in reality, it is your opinion and nothing more. Also, it is an opinion that the people who voted in Mazeroski and Ozzie Smith do not agree with.

"When a runner is on second base with one out, it's better to strikeout than a ground out between first and second." ~ Stan the brain surgeon Marsh 51.

That is a fact. And considering Mazeroski was considered one of the greatest defensively at his position all time, and still couldn't get close until the Veteran's Committee, helps prove that. How many of the greatest offensive players all time at their position aren't in due to lack of merit? And if HOF voting is what you are going to use, what will you say when Jeter is a first-ballot HOFer and Vizquel isn't?

Runners on base with less than two outs, accounts for 25.7% of Jeter's plate appearances. He struck out 13.4% of the time in those situations while hitting .316 with a .388 OBP. A 13.4% K-rate would rank him the following in each full season of his career, with the amount of qualified hitters provided as well.

1996: 92/147
1997: 101/144
1998: 98/159
1999: 98/157
2000: 103/163
2001: 95/156
2002: 93/151
2003: 94/165
2004: 99/164
2005: 92/148
2006: 97/160
2007: 110/162
2008: 103/147
2009: 107/154
2010: 111/149
2011: 104/145
2012: 111/143
2014: 115/146

So are strikeouts a problem when, even given your scenario where they would be, Jeter's strikeout rate wouldn't even be in the top 90 in the league?

 

[PolarVortex]

So are strikeouts a problem when, even given your scenario where they would be, Jeter's strikeout rate wouldn't even be in the top 90 in the league?

That wasn't my scenario, Slick. I said a runner on second base, not runners on base (which would include first). If you have a runner on second base with one out, and batter at the plate grounds out to advance the runner to third, now you can drive the runner in with a sacrifice fly. That is called a 'good out.' Keep trying, ladies.

 

[PolarVortex]

The 1950s called...they want their outdated logic back.

Here's a scenario to show how flawed your reliance on runs and RBIs are:

Player A singles
Player B doubles, moving player A to 3rd
Player C hits a sac fly, scoring player A

Using your flawed logic, player B wasn't a big contributor to the run since he didn't get a run or RBI.


If you wanna get an idea of who was better with runners on in 1999:
A-Rod - .302 AVG, .965 OPS
Jeter - .367 AVG, 1.017 OPS

Or we can also look at their numbers with RISP:
A-Rod - .288 AVG, .870 OPS
Jeter - .357 AVG, 1.027 OPS

Keep telling yourself that A-Rod was the guy you wanted up when runners were on that year over Jeter....you're delusional...

I didn't read any of that. You bore the hell out of me. Jeter sucks.

 

[soxfan1468927]

That wasn't my scenario, Slick. I said a runner on second base, not runners on base (which would include first).

I assumed you were talking about a situation where you can have a productive out. If you are talking about having runners on 2nd or 3rd, with less than two outs, that accounts for 8% of overall plate appearances. What a waste of time.

 

[PolarVortex]

I assumed you were talking about a situation where you can have a productive out. If you are talking about having runners on 2nd or 3rd, with less than two outs, that accounts for 8% of overall plate appearances. What a waste of time.

Which tells us nothing. Jetes sucks.

 

[navamind]

 

[soxfan1468927]

Which tells us nothing. Jetes sucks.

Love it. Every point you made got destroyed and you have no idea how to respond.

 

[PolarVortex]

Love it. Every point you made got destroyed and you have no idea how to respond.

Opinion, not fact. And it is an opinion that I do not share. Jeter, the Whiff Queen, sucks.

 

[calsnowskier]

That wasn't my scenario, Slick. I said a runner on second base, not runners on base (which would include first). If you have a runner on second base with one out, and batter at the plate grounds out to advance the runner to third, now you can drive the runner in with a sacrifice fly. That is called a 'good out.' Keep trying, ladies.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Opinion, not fact. And it is an opinion that I do not share. Jeter, the Whiff Queen, sucks.

It's an absolute fact that offense is more important than defense.