Hate the DH? Don't think Ortiz belongs in the HOF? Bob Ryan and Edgar Martinez just shamed you...

[Rock Strongo]

Right. It leads to some serious speculation that David Ortiz was juicing. What's keeping Piazza out of the HOF again?

same thing, suspicion.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

same thing, suspicion.

So suspicion of PED usage without a MLBPA sanctioned test is keeping Mike Piazza out of the HOF.

What is keeping Edgar Martinez out of the HOF?

 

[Rock Strongo]

So suspicion of PED usage without a MLBPA sanctioned test is keeping Mike Piazza out of the HOF.

What is keeping Edgar Martinez out of the HOF?

he was a DH, didnt hit 500 HRs or 3,000 hits. never won a title.

 

[navamind]

same thing, suspicion.

Deadspin didn't write it, they quoted Murray Chass.

 

[navamind]

he was a DH, didnt hit 500 HRs or 3,000 hits. never won a title.

All completely arbitrary things.

 

[Rock Strongo]

Deadspin didn't write it, they quoted Murray Chass.

the headline
you
quoted

 

[Rock Strongo]

All completely arbitrary things.

tell yourself that.

it helps.

 

[navamind]

tell yourself that.

it helps.

It does. Because I realize they are terrible measures.

 

[Rock Strongo]

i liked edgar as a player, but a guy hitting 20-24 HR's a year as a DH on average isnt ground breaking.

he was a heck of a hitter, but led the league in RBI...once. 2 batting titles.

from 27-the end of his career (when he was a starter lets say) he averaged .313/20 HR/82 RBI

nice numbers, but ortiz had years he did that by the AS break.

 

[navamind]

the headline
you
quoted

Did you even click it? The Deadspin article is mostly an excerpt from Murray Chass's blog.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

he was a DH, didnt hit 500 HRs or 3,000 hits. never won a title.

How would you rank these four issues in terms of importance regarding what is keeping Edgar Martinez out of the HOF?

 

[Rock Strongo]

Did you even click it? The Deadspin article is mostly an excerpt from Murray Chass's blog.

yup

i clicked it in 2009 too

same deadspin link and headline

 

[Rock Strongo]

How would you rank these four issues in terms of importance regarding what is keeping Edgar Martinez out of the HOF?

500 HR's
3,000 hits
no titles
DH

 

[navamind]

i liked edgar as a player, but a guy hitting 20-24 HR's a year as a DH on average isnt ground breaking.

he was a heck of a hitter, but led the league in RBI...once. 2 batting titles.

from 27-the end of his career (when he was a starter lets say) he averaged .313/20 HR/82 RBI

nice numbers, but ortiz had years he did that by the AS break.

Nice cherry picking. There's more to hitting than home runs.

Edgar's career stats: .312/.418/.515, 147 OPS+, .405 wOBA
Ortiz: .284/.378/.545, 139 OPS+, .389 wOBA

Ortiz was unquestionably the better power hitter, but Edgar had a 40 point career advantage in OBP. That's very significant, and Edgar has the 20th best OBP of all-time. I'll take 40 points of OBP over 30 points of slugging any time. Not only that, but Edgar played in a tougher ballpark.

 

[navamind]

500 HR's
3,000 hits
no titles
DH

Those things really kept Jim Rice and Andre Dawson out of the HOF!

(Granted, it's a joke Rice is in.)

 

[Rock Strongo]

Nice cherry picking.

Edgar's career stats: .312/.418/.515, 147 OPS+, .405 wOBA
Ortiz: .284/.378/.545, 139 OPS+, .389 wOBA

Ortiz was unquestionably the better power hitter, but Edgar had a 40 point career advantage in OBP. That's very significant, and Edgar has the 20th best OBP of all-time. I'll take 40 points of OBP over 30 points of slugging any time. Not only that, but Edgar played in a tougher ballpark.

thats not cherry picking, thats age 27-retirement (when he was a full time player)

numbers dont lie

20/82

1990-2004 SEA 1963 8394 6967 1193 2181 500 13 307 1231 47 29 1260 1164 .313 .421 .521 .941 149 3628 187 85 7 73 112
Average 131 560 464 80 145 33 1 20 82 3 2 84 78 242 12 6 0 5 7
per 162 games 163 697 579 100 182 42 2 26 103 4 3 105 97 302 16 8 1 7 1

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

David Ortiz's steroid use notwithstanding, given the issues Edgar Martinez is having trying to reach the hall, Ortiz should be bracing himself for disappointment.

Edgar Martinez hasn't even gotten 40% of HOF votes and he's been at it for a while. Here's their career slash lines:

DO: .284/.378/.545/.922/139
EM: .312/.418/.515/.933/147

What's keeping Martinez out? The fact that he was a DH, and he DHed 68% of his games compared to Ortiz's 84% with a bullet.

As I said before, things could change. Writers could have a change of heart regarding DHs' eligibility to the HOF. Writers could have a change of heart regarding suspected PED usage. Right now, though, Ortiz's chances aren't looking good.

Good Stuff, and like you said, PED's aside

Ortiz' major edge IMO is his postseason resume....Im not sure of many/if any, players in history that are as responsible for 3 titles, as much as Ortiz....Id argue the Sox are still in their 100 year drought if not for Papi

 

[Rock Strongo]

Those things really kept Jim Rice out of the HOF!

(Granted, it's a joke he's in.)

rice was given the belated puckett treatment.

 

[navamind]

thats not cherry p icking, thats age 27-retirement (when he was a full time player)

numbers dont lie

20/82

1990-2004 SEA 1963 8394 6967 1193 2181 500 13 307 1231 47 29 1260 1164 .313 .421 .521 .941 149 3628 187 85 7 73 112
Average 131 560 464 80 145 33 1 20 82 3 2 84 78 242 12 6 0 5 7
per 162 games 163 697 579 100 182 42 2 26 103 4 3 105 97 302 16 8 1 7 1

Seeing as you think counting stats are a valid measure? Yes, it is. RBIs are worthless.

 

[Rock Strongo]

Seeing as you think counting stats are valid measure? Yes, it is.

lmfao

ok, then what IS a valid measure if it isnt statistics?

"he was nice"