Andrew Luck for Patrick Willis trade?

[imac_21]

You're right IMAC....when I said those were the three best defenses I ever saw, I was wrong. You're right and I'm wrong, about my own opinion. Thanks for pointing this out.

No problem. Sometimes people make mistakes.

You were brainwashed into believing that the 2011 Niners were better than the 02 Bucs because you're a fan of the Niners.

You were convinced that the Bucs don't belong in the class of the 85 Bears and the 2000 Ravens because of the personalities on those teams.

I guess using some cold, hard logic may have paid off in this analysis. Too bad you're stuck with nothing but your opinion.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

LOL. With anyone else I would have chalked that up to sarcasm.......but of course you are being serious. Almost unbelievable.

 

[MW49ers5]

Did you by chance START the thread at the post you quoted?
space said that the best defenses he's ever seen all have elite MLBs. My contention is that the 2002 Bucs belong in a "greatest ever" discussion that includes the 85 Bears, 2000 Ravens and 2011 49ers based on the fact that they are statistically superior to the 85 Bears, very similar, though slightly behind, the 2000 Ravens, and likely to be superior to the 11 Niners.

Now, the Niners, Ravens and Bears all have/had elite MLBs. The 2002 Bucs didn't. I would consider that to be throwing a pretty major wrench into the theory that an elite MLB is necessary for an elite defense.

Of course, if you read more of the conversation, that would have been remarkably obvious.

Yes, I did, and as a context fanatic you're point is taken. So perhaps Space misspoke; however, I am also operating under the impression that the subtext of these off-shoot arguments is to convince those of us who believe shit-canning Willis to draft Luck is, without injecting some implicit fantasy outcome, ridiculous.

So, enough quarreling over Quarles let's fast forward and say we made the trade, what are your expectations of Luck individually and for the team with Luck and without Willis to justify making that trade?

 

[freaak]

I think iMac created these Willis topics to pick a fight with someone.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

So perhaps Space misspoke

Or perhaps others misread it? Why is everyone trying to tell me what I meant by a particular comment?

 

[Mozart'sGhost]

LOL. With anyone else I would have chalked that up to sarcasm.......but of course you are being serious. Almost unbelievable.

Yep, he is a sarcastic fuck sometimes but he is right; those Raven and Buc defenses were far superior to this year's Niner defense.

 

[MW49ers5]

Or perhaps others misread it? Why is everyone trying to tell me what I meant by a particular comment?

That works just as well, Space. No one (at least not me anyway) is trying to put words in your mouth. I simply took Imac's interpretation that you implied great defenses cannot exist with an elite/great MLB and ran with it. Sorry if I offended.

 

[freaak]

The Ravens and Bucs did a better job of getting after the QB. Outside Aldon Smith, who else can create pressure that isn't coverage-induced?

 

[Mozart'sGhost]

Exactly, (See! Billy Idol gets it! lol!!)

And now you have to define what expectations come with being a franchise QB, because we are on the verge of making Alex Smith a franchise QB...

Jesus, Ghost, how many of these over-hyped college players have you and I had to put up with? "Oooo, he's going to be the next Terry Bradshaw or the next Roger Staubach, or Joe Montana or the next John Elway", when in reality, most of them wind up being the next Alex Smith or Carson Palmer.

Do you remember the hype surrounding Jeff George? This Andrew Luck hype reminds me a lot of that level of hype.

Yep. Remember Heath Schuler and if you want to go real old school how 'bout the great Gary Beban?

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

MW....no offense, obviously, but don't take Imac's word for something when he's on his Smartest Guy in the Room trip. For the record, he's comparing defensive stats from different eras straight up without any adjustments and trying to draw concrete conclusions from such a flawed perspective.

Its like saying Philip Rivers is a better QB than Joe Montana because he has a higher QB rating, with no acknowledgement that offense is easier these days and offensive efficiency is higher. Then you'd have to get into who played who, and when, and where, if you want to use numbers to make objective conclusions about who's better. He knows this of course.

 

[imac_21]

Yep. Remember Heath Schuler and if you want to go real old school how 'bout the great Gary Beban?

Why would you want to compare to guys from that long ago? Ryan Leaf is irrelevant with how far technology has advanced.

 

[imac_21]

MW....no offense, obviously, but don't take Imac's word for something when he's on his Smartest Guy in the Room trip. For the record, he's comparing defensive stats from different eras straight up without any adjustments and trying to draw concrete conclusions from such a flawed perspective.

Its like saying Philip Rivers is a better QB than Joe Montana because he has a higher QB rating, with no acknowledgement that offense is easier these days and offensive efficiency is higher. Then you'd have to get into who played who, and when, and where, if you want to use numbers to make objective conclusions about who's better. He knows this of course.

Yeah, I'm comparing from different eras. Comparing the 200 Ravens to the 2002 Bucs is crazy. There was a distinct change in era in 2001 with the beginning of the new millenium.

Were rules more offensively friendly in 1985, or 2002?

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

Didn't you just say the Bucs were better because the Niners are on pace to give up more yards? I mean, not just eras....but using yards, one of the few least-important stats there is. I could go on, if I was as fussy as you are.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

I'm not even going to discuss 85 bears vs. 02 Bucs, if you think that's an open-and-shut case you're an even bigger dope than I thought.

 

[Mozart'sGhost]

The Ravens and Bucs did a better job of getting after the QB. Outside Aldon Smith, who else can create pressure that isn't coverage-induced?

And that, in my opinion, is the critical piece to a superior defense. The greatest ones all could put fear in the QBs heart.

 

[Mozart'sGhost]

Why would you want to compare to guys from that long ago? Ryan Leaf is irrelevant with how far technology has advanced.

Its fun for old guys like MW and me.

 

[MW49ers5]

Yep. Remember Heath Schuler and if you want to go real old school how 'bout the great Gary Beban?

You got me on Gary Beban...One of the earliest hypes I remember was for Archie Manning...I recall Beban's name but not the hype.

Yes I do recall Shuler, Mirer and way too many others. Like Hockey said, this poor kid [Luck] is going to be under so much scrutiny from all this hype, he is going to be labeled a bust with his first incompletion

 

[Mozart'sGhost]

You got me on Gary Beban...One of the earliest hypes I remember was for Archie Manning...I recall Beban's name but not the hype.
Yes I do recall Shuler, Mirer and way too many others. Like Hockey said, this poor kid [Luck] is going to be under so much scrutiny from all this hype, he is going to be labeled a bust with his first incompletion

1967 Heisman Trophy winner from UCLA. Played in "the greatest college game ever played". Known as "the Great One". Complete flop in the pros. Here's some info.

Gary Beban - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[MW49ers5]

1967 Heisman Trophy winner from UCLA. Played in "the greatest college game ever played". Known as "the Great One". Complete flop in the pros. Here's some info.

Gary Beban - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Geez, "The Great One"!?!...Yeah, no pressure there...

Interesting story and just more evidence that this hype machine has been around for decades. The only difference between today and 'back then' is the number of media outlets and the mass volume of it.

 

[imac_21]

Didn't you just say the Bucs were better because the Niners are on pace to give up more yards? I mean, not just eras....but using yards, one of the few least-important stats there is. I could go on, if I was as fussy as you are.

Yes, yards were my sole comparison point.

I'm not even going to discuss 85 bears vs. 02 Bucs, if you think that's an open-and-shut case you're an even bigger dope than I thought[/quote\

I don't blame you. If you're going to imply that the Bucs shouldn't be compared to the modern Niners because of how much the era changed in 9 years to benefit the offense, I wouldn't want to compare a team from 16 years earlier when the rules were even more in favour of defense. Particularly if you think I've declared it an "open and shut case."

But how about the Ravens and Bucs? You forgot to mention the different eras there. Those were two teams that were statistically quite similar.

But of course, you by default compared the 85 Bears to all other defenses (and the 11 Niners and 00 Ravens) by stating they are the best 3 defenses you've ever seen.