Trading Ja'Marr Chase

[DanBengalfan]

Burrow, Chase, a decent OL, and some other guys.

then sign a decent defense.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Burrow, Chase, a decent OL, and some other guys.

then sign a decent defense.

We just need a 15-20 ranked defense to be competitive and playoff bound. Having maybe one of the worst defenses in NFL history doesn't help Burrow and Co.

 

[BigKen]

Over the last 10 years, the Bengals have drafted 3 Pro Bowl players that were taken outside of the top 10 of the draft (so, not including Burrow or Chase). They are Mixon, Bates, and Eifert. All of those picks in 10 years and you end up with 3 Pro Bowl worthy players.

Pro-Bowl does not equal Super Bowl.

That's all flash and no cash.

Patriots already have $139M to spend in free agency when the gates open in March 2025. Higgins is a target.

No way in hell that the Patriots would trade the #2,#34 in this draft and their first and third in 2026 for Chase. Sorry, he ain't worth it.

WRs rarely are as good with the second team as they were with their first. ie: Jerry Rice, Davante Adams.

 

[cincygrad]

Pro-Bowl does not equal Super Bowl.

That's all flash and no cash.

Patriots already have $139M to spend in free agency when the gates open in March 2025. Higgins is a target.

No way in hell that the Patriots would trade the #2,#34 in this draft and their first and third in 2026 for Chase. Sorry, he ain't worth it.

WRs rarely are as good with the second team as they were with their first. ie: Jerry Rice, Davante Adams.

We're not trading Chase. My point was that the Bengals don't draft well enough to justify it even if they were given a huge haul of picks. That said, I think your point about receivers not being as good on second teams is not strong.... I mean, Rice was pretty damn old by the time he changed teams and he was still terrific. Adams went to the dessert to play with Carr and some bad teams. Chase is 24 years old - He's only a year or two older than the top draft picks will be. He's not going anywhere, but if he did, he'd still be a stud. AJ Brown of Philly is doing fine on his second team. Better than he was in TN. Until an injury this year, Tyreek Hill was putting up video game numbers on his second team.

 

[Cincyfan78]

As I said before - You don't trade top 3 WR's...KC did, and they got away with it because 1 - they had a top 1 TE, and Mahomes, and a SHIT ton of luck...and a decent enough defense.

Bengals have a top tier #2 WR in Higgins, but no other way to replace that production - and the defense is...well...awful is being kind.

 

[cincygrad]

As I said before - You don't trade top 3 WR's...KC did, and they got away with it because 1 - they had a top 1 TE, and Mahomes, and a SHIT ton of luck...and a decent enough defense.

Bengals have a top tier #2 WR in Higgins, but no other way to replace that production - and the defense is...well...awful is being kind.

I used to be i the camp of letting Tee walk. But, we haven't developed a true number 2 receiver and I agree that Tee's presence on the field changes the way the defense has to play Chase. At this point, given our inconsistency with selecting draft picks and free agents, I would do what I can to keep Tee. You would go into battle with two good offensive tackles, two great receivers, a true weapon at running back, and hopefully a new guard or two. You don't have a defense..... But given all the draft capital that we spent there, I'd be willing to see what a new staff can do to make them at least competitive. They don't need a top 10 or even top 15 unit. They can't be bottom 5.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I used to be i the camp of letting Tee walk. But, we haven't developed a true number 2 receiver and I agree that Tee's presence on the field changes the way the defense has to play Chase. At this point, given our inconsistency with selecting draft picks and free agents, I would do what I can to keep Tee. You would go into battle with two good offensive tackles, two great receivers, a true weapon at running back, and hopefully a new guard or two. You don't have a defense..... But given all the draft capital that we spent there, I'd be willing to see what a new staff can do to make them at least competitive. They don't need a top 10 or even top 15 unit. They can't be bottom 5.

I am in agreement.

IF - Chase is willing to take a bit less (or maybe Burrow restructures to free up the needed money) - I'm down with going for broke on getting both guys back. Regardless, someone is going to have to blink in the money war, and honestly it can't be the Bengals. You can't pay both guys to be #1 type WR. Tee has to be OK with being the top #2, Chase may have to be OK with not being the #1 paid WR, and Burrow will have to be OK with a restructure that frees up some cash.

I think if all 3 go into a "meeting" of the minds of sorts - and they all do this - then they are likely to get it done. If one is going to hold to their guns (i.e. Chase #1 paid WR) I think it throws a kink into the plan - and I'm not willing to trade Tee for Chase. While I agree they haven't developed a solid #2 behind Chase to replace Higgins, they certainly can't "hope" to land another top 3 (top 1?) WR in Chase. Chances are you can find ways to replace the 2nd WR much, much easier than to replace what Chase brings. That doesn't even touch on Higgins injury history....

I like quite a few pieces on defense...I agree that a new face, and a fresh perspective may just get things done. They still have some needs...another rush DE, another DT (I think Rankins gets cut), and likely another LB, or two...as they need to get way quicker here, IMO. Secondary has a lot of faces, but the scheme, coaching, and other factors make it really tough to really decide/know just how good some of these guys can, or can't, be.

 

[BKBroiler9000]

Ja'Marr Chase is the best receiver in football this year. Likely the best in franchise history. And could go down as an all time great.

Get. Him. Paid.

As for the defense. Who do yall think is a realistic DC candidate? We all know Robert Saleh isn’t coming here. The Cowboys likely clean house in a few weeks. Maybe Mike Zimmer wants to come back to fix this mess?

 

[cincygrad]

Ja'Marr Chase is the best receiver in football this year. Likely the best in franchise history. And could go down as an all time great.

Get. Him. Paid.

As for the defense. Who do yall think is a realistic DC candidate? We all know Robert Saleh isn’t coming here. The Cowboys likely clean house in a few weeks. Maybe Mike Zimmer wants to come back to fix this mess?

Dennis Allen? I don't think he'll have as many opportunities as Saleh and he was a serious candidate for Taylor's first staff. He's had his ups and downs, but as a coordinator he has been pretty good.

 

[cincygrad]

And I should say that I wouldn't be shocked by Zimmer. I'm sure he would find it appealing as I believe he still owns property in Kentucky. He certainly would find better ways to apply pressure.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

I am in agreement.

IF - Chase is willing to take a bit less (or maybe Burrow restructures to free up the needed money) - I'm down with going for broke on getting both guys back. Regardless, someone is going to have to blink in the money war, and honestly it can't be the Bengals. You can't pay both guys to be #1 type WR. Tee has to be OK with being the top #2, Chase may have to be OK with not being the #1 paid WR, and Burrow will have to be OK with a restructure that frees up some cash.

I think if all 3 go into a "meeting" of the minds of sorts - and they all do this - then they are likely to get it done. If one is going to hold to their guns (i.e. Chase #1 paid WR) I think it throws a kink into the plan - and I'm not willing to trade Tee for Chase. While I agree they haven't developed a solid #2 behind Chase to replace Higgins, they certainly can't "hope" to land another top 3 (top 1?) WR in Chase. Chances are you can find ways to replace the 2nd WR much, much easier than to replace what Chase brings. That doesn't even touch on Higgins injury history....

I like quite a few pieces on defense...I agree that a new face, and a fresh perspective may just get things done. They still have some needs...another rush DE, another DT (I think Rankins gets cut), and likely another LB, or two...as they need to get way quicker here, IMO. Secondary has a lot of faces, but the scheme, coaching, and other factors make it really tough to really decide/know just how good some of these guys can, or can't, be.

NOW everyone is on board, but when I was mentioning this I am a dumbass. hahaha

 

[Cincyfan78]

NOW everyone is on board, but when I was mentioning this I am a dumbass. hahaha

No, IIRC, the original was Tee had to be signed at all cost....

I think we went around, and if everyone is on board - sure. It works. That's always been a thing even before Burrow got paid there was talk of him taking less because they knew about Higgins and then Chase.

Then Burrow got PAID. The Chase stated he wanted #1 WR money...meaning, highest paid. And, Higgins got the tag. Suddenly - ships were all pulling in different directions.

I've said all along, I think Tee should stay. I think he's a top Three #2 WR, but he's not a true #1. If he chases the money - good for him, but I think his overall impact, and potentially late career earnings, will take a dip. It follows the path of many #2 WR's who go on to take the $$$, be a #1, and end up getting exposed to the point where their prime years are wasted not putting up numbers, and end up with very little in terms of after-prime contracts.

But - If I was against any of that....then I am an idiot - which wouldn't be the first time, nor will it be the last...LOL

 

[CrashDavisSports]

No, IIRC, the original was Tee had to be signed at all cost....

I think we went around, and if everyone is on board - sure. It works. That's always been a thing even before Burrow got paid there was talk of him taking less because they knew about Higgins and then Chase.

Then Burrow got PAID. The Chase stated he wanted #1 WR money...meaning, highest paid. And, Higgins got the tag. Suddenly - ships were all pulling in different directions.

I've said all along, I think Tee should stay. I think he's a top Three #2 WR, but he's not a true #1. If he chases the money - good for him, but I think his overall impact, and potentially late career earnings, will take a dip. It follows the path of many #2 WR's who go on to take the $$$, be a #1, and end up getting exposed to the point where their prime years are wasted not putting up numbers, and end up with very little in terms of after-prime contracts.

But - If I was against any of that....then I am an idiot - which wouldn't be the first time, nor will it be the last...LOL

Oh I knew the Bengals couldn't afford $110 million a year for 3 players.

Maybe Burrow signed his contract because he didn't want to let all these other QB's down when resetting the market. BUt now that the market has been reset and guys are getting around $55 million, he still has his guarantees, he can lower his value, while keeping the market at $55 million for QB's and give some back to the team for Tee. I don't think Burrow is going to drop his pay to $30 million to cover Tee, and I don't think Ja'Marr is going to avoid being the richest WR in NFL history. However, I think he can do t he same thing as Burrow, get the contract this year with the guarantees, and then next year renegotiate to lower his price tag while keeping guarantees in place.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Oh I knew the Bengals couldn't afford $110 million a year for 3 players.

Maybe Burrow signed his contract because he didn't want to let all these other QB's down when resetting the market. BUt now that the market has been reset and guys are getting around $55 million, he still has his guarantees, he can lower his value, while keeping the market at $55 million for QB's and give some back to the team for Tee. I don't think Burrow is going to drop his pay to $30 million to cover Tee, and I don't think Ja'Marr is going to avoid being the richest WR in NFL history. However, I think he can do t he same thing as Burrow, get the contract this year with the guarantees, and then next year renegotiate to lower his price tag while keeping guarantees in place.

Right. You can do one of 2 things:

Convert salary to bonus and pay it up front, allowing it to be spread over more years - freeing up the cap.

You can do the above and ADD years, which adds to the amount of time you can spread the hit lowing the cap even further.


I'm sure there are a few more areas they could work, but I think these are the 2 likely options to make this work.

 

[DJ Fieri]

I guess we won't have an issue signing Chase, and.....

MSN

Still doesn't fix the defense.

And you need help on the OL to protect Burrow so he isn't hurt.

 

[DJ Fieri]

Dennis Allen? I don't think he'll have as many opportunities as Saleh and he was a serious candidate for Taylor's first staff. He's had his ups and downs, but as a coordinator he has been pretty good.

Allen can't be a HC but he is a good DC....that would be a solid addition.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Still doesn't fix the defense.

And you need help on the OL to protect Burrow so he isn't hurt.

The interior OL is a mess. LG/RG specifically. I think C should be OK, but they have a guy they drafted this past year that looks like he could be pretty good, so I really think the focus should be on LG/RG.

Currently, at LT they are down to their 4th OT. Brown (IR), Brown Jr (injuried), Ford (illness)...but when healthy, Brown Jr and Mims make a nice bookend, and I think they could have done a lot worse than Cochran at LT yesterday (and the other guy who was likely a backup OT was lost in pre-season, I think...so 5th OT yesterday at LT).

Defense still sucks. They made the plays when the ball was woefully off target, but they couldn't stop much from happening when the Titans didn't shoot themselves in the foot. Missed tackles. Guys out of place. Guys looking super slow. Just - I think there are some good pieces...but I think the scheme is just really bad, and has been bad for a long time. In '21 and '22, they had an insane amount of turnovers to cover a lot of issues. That isn't sustainable year over year.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

The interior OL is a mess. LG/RG specifically. I think C should be OK, but they have a guy they drafted this past year that looks like he could be pretty good, so I really think the focus should be on LG/RG.

Currently, at LT they are down to their 4th OT. Brown (IR), Brown Jr (injuried), Ford (illness)...but when healthy, Brown Jr and Mims make a nice bookend, and I think they could have done a lot worse than Cochran at LT yesterday (and the other guy who was likely a backup OT was lost in pre-season, I think...so 5th OT yesterday at LT).

Defense still sucks. They made the plays when the ball was woefully off target, but they couldn't stop much from happening when the Titans didn't shoot themselves in the foot. Missed tackles. Guys out of place. Guys looking super slow. Just - I think there are some good pieces...but I think the scheme is just really bad, and has been bad for a long time. In '21 and '22, they had an insane amount of turnovers to cover a lot of issues. That isn't sustainable year over year.

The question is, we lost both Dax Hill and DJ Turner early in the season and they were our #1, #3 CB at the time, with Cam Taylor-Britt being #2. Britt has been terrible this year, but Turner looked like he was starting to turn into a solid #2. With that said, if we are able to get a solid CB in FA or high draft pick, top 20 pick, I think we might lose Hilton, but while I don't think Newton is as good of a tackler, blitzer as Hilton, I think he can do as well if not better than Hilton in coverage. Can our CB be better with just health and an addition. We still need a good quality safety.

Then of course we have to get Wilson back and add another piece to the LB room.

Ossai was looking pretty dang good yesterday with the pressure. Murphy really needs to take that next step forward, but we should be aiming for another DE in FA/draft anyways.

We need to replace Rankins. I think we need more of a body eater in the middle versus a pass rush. Those guys in the middle need to occupy blockers and fill lanes, as the two DE's and a CB, LB or S blitz is performed. If they can keep the pocket from separating into run lanes for the QB while the DE's pin their hair back and go full bore, we will get more pressure on the QB I think. If we want a pass rushing DT that is going to be available in FA, I would go with Milton Williams from the Eagles. He is a backup that gets starter type of snaps and has produced. Because he is a backup, his price tag may also not be as high and his stats may blow up with him only being 25-26 years old. Kinda like a Trey Hendrickson did. Leki Fotu is another younger guy going to hit free agency whose best football may be ahead of him as more of a run defender.

I think our defense can be adjusted without spending a fortune to make it serviceable and still reasonably aged.

 

[Cincyfan78]

The question is, we lost both Dax Hill and DJ Turner early in the season and they were our #1, #3 CB at the time, with Cam Taylor-Britt being #2. Britt has been terrible this year, but Turner looked like he was starting to turn into a solid #2. With that said, if we are able to get a solid CB in FA or high draft pick, top 20 pick, I think we might lose Hilton, but while I don't think Newton is as good of a tackler, blitzer as Hilton, I think he can do as well if not better than Hilton in coverage. Can our CB be better with just health and an addition. We still need a good quality safety.

Then of course we have to get Wilson back and add another piece to the LB room.

Ossai was looking pretty dang good yesterday with the pressure. Murphy really needs to take that next step forward, but we should be aiming for another DE in FA/draft anyways.

We need to replace Rankins. I think we need more of a body eater in the middle versus a pass rush. Those guys in the middle need to occupy blockers and fill lanes, as the two DE's and a CB, LB or S blitz is performed. If they can keep the pocket from separating into run lanes for the QB while the DE's pin their hair back and go full bore, we will get more pressure on the QB I think. If we want a pass rushing DT that is going to be available in FA, I would go with Milton Williams from the Eagles. He is a backup that gets starter type of snaps and has produced. Because he is a backup, his price tag may also not be as high and his stats may blow up with him only being 25-26 years old. Kinda like a Trey Hendrickson did. Leki Fotu is another younger guy going to hit free agency whose best football may be ahead of him as more of a run defender.

I think our defense can be adjusted without spending a fortune to make it serviceable and still reasonably aged.

Agreed.

In PFF early mocks - the A&M DE is there at 10...I take him.

Round 2 there are still some really good DE's...and I possibly double up on DE because you need to replace Hubbard, you need more behind at depth, AND you still need to help rotate Hendrickson...so, in a rare instance early on - I would be good doubling up at DE early with the right guys.

Round 3 becomes a OG/DT/WR/CB/S (best available).

Point being - I do agree - I think with the right tweaks and moves, you have some really good and young pieces. Despite his gaff yesterday, Battle has looked better, and had a really good rookie year. I think you could see CTB move to Safety where his hitting and open ball hawking could be valuable rather than lining up in man at CB a lot where he struggles. You have Hill and Turner returning. Newsome has also looked good.

Replace Hill and Rankins. Jenkins/McKinnley will get better and Jenkins has flashed, but needs another true DT next to him.

Also need to replace Pratt. I realize he's set a new high for tackles, but 90% of them seem to be 8 yards down field, and his pass coverage has been....wooof. At the end yesterday, Tenn isolated Tajea Spears on Pratt - who made 2 or 3 just absolutely poor plays that showed just how slow he's gotten. Spears dusted him despite Pratt having all the angles and being able to come up on Spears. Didn't matter. That's not even counting the multitude of missed tackles....

 

[Cincyfan78]

Adding a point on OT play - Mims yesterday 0 pressures allowed. 38 passing sets.

I'll take that from a rookie.