Andrew Luck for Patrick Willis trade?

[imac_21]

This response doesnt make sense. I agree with another poster that he said he finds it funny that people are absolute certain about college prospects and how that many highly rated prospects have failed in the past. He goes on to say how difficult it is to predict and how professionals have a hard time evaluating, let alone people on a message board.

And you say "Not really at all?"

Ah yeah, I do find it funny how people can be 100% sure about a college prospect when history has shown nothing is for sure. And I do find it true that its hard to predict how somone will do in the pros.

Well, you said it's very very true that it's difficult for pro scouts to predict success. That's not true at all.

 

[Mozart'sGhost]

That's fair enough....I understand your point.

I was just thinking a little while back about how now the three best defenses I've seen have all been led by a dominant LB - Singletary, Ray Lewis and now Willis. As much praise as these guys get, I think their true, awesome contribution may even be a bit underrated.

And how that relates to the point in the other thread......maybe Justin Smith is more irreplaceable than Willis, but that's more a question of the Niners' depth and personnel than their respective talent. Willis will go to the pro bowl every year of his career, and there's a good chance he's still going to improve for the next 4 - 5 years....he's the driving force behind the D IMO.

You must be either very, very young or just a complete homer if you believe that this 49er defense is one of the top three you've ever seen.

 

[imac_21]

W/O Ray Lewis, the Ravens may have not won the Super Bowl. Ray Lewis is a culture changer, he impacts both on and off the field for that team, specifically the defense.

Ray Lewis' leadership made that defense into one of the top units ever. Peyton did the same for the Colts via offense but took awhile for him to reach the super bowl. Both are excellent leaders and players, but I'm not if they would move Ray Lewis, pending on the direction of the franchise.

You're right. Without Ray Lewis Baltimore MIGHT not have won a Super Bowl. How successful would Indy have been over the last 10 years without Peyton?

 

[imac_21]

If you could tell me Luck becomes as good a QB as Willis is a LB, then I would do it without thinking twice. Look what an elite QB does for a team... puts you in contention every single season. But for an unproven guy, nope. I believe Luck will be great, but not willing to give up the best player on our team and the face of the franchise for hoping.

So you fall into the category of "don't trust your scouting department."

 

[coffeeman]

Would you do this trade with no strings attached no extra picks just straight up.

Yes. I would pack his bags for him, drive him to the airport and grab him a ticket for the Indy 500.

I would then sign Grant to an extension and go pour myself a Pliny the Elder and wait. I understand the argument to keep Willis, and there are some very good arguments in doing so, but I believe that Luck is going to a franchise QB for years to come.

 

[h0ckeysk83r]

Theres a lot of pressure for Luck to live up too already. Well see if he can handle it. Shall be an interesting ride.

 

[imac_21]

They have both given there teams 1 superbowl win and a few AFC title games. Manning career is based on stats, Ray Lewis career is based on how he rallied other players around him to play great. I think they both have done equal but Manning has made his team more competetive each year because he was the QB.

Indy has actually played in two Super Bowls.

Baltimore has made the playoffs 7 times since 1999. That's 7 of a possible 12 times. They made the Super Bowl once. They failed to win 10 games 6 times.

In that same 12 year span Indy made the playoffs 11 times. They made the Super Bowl twice. Once in that 12 year span did Indy win less than 10 games.

 

[imac_21]

That's fair enough....I understand your point.

I was just thinking a little while back about how now the three best defenses I've seen have all been led by a dominant LB - Singletary, Ray Lewis and now Willis. As much praise as these guys get, I think their true, awesome contribution may even be a bit underrated.

And how that relates to the point in the other thread......maybe Justin Smith is more irreplaceable than Willis, but that's more a question of the Niners' depth and personnel than their respective talent. Willis will go to the pro bowl every year of his career, and there's a good chance he's still going to improve for the next 4 - 5 years....he's the driving force behind the D IMO.

What about players like Brian Urlacher and London Fletcher? Is it possible that some great MLB get overlooked because they don't play for great defenses?

Is Willis significantly better this year than he was for the last 4 years? Was Lewis only an elite LB in 2000? The Ravens have only ranked as the top defense one other year.

Who was the MLB on the great Niner defenses of the 80s and early 90s?

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

You must be either very, very young or just a complete homer if you believe that this 49er defense is one of the top three you've ever seen.

I'm neither.....who's better? I'd accept the Steel Curtain and the Parcells Giants as acceptable alternatives......though as you surely know, even in this relatively offensive era the Niners have better numbers than both those teams.

 

[coffeeman]

I'm neither.....who's better? I'd accept the Steel Curtain and the Parcells Giants as acceptable alternatives......though as you surely know, even in this relatively offensive era the Niners have better numbers than both those teams.

This team has not allowed a rushing TD all season which is mind numbing when you think about it.
I am not ready to put them into the "all time" great category yet but they are sure working towards it. I want to see how they perform in the post season when things get real intense.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

Who was the MLB on the great Niner defenses of the 80s and early 90s

Obviously that role was played by Lott, who obviously isn't an MLB......but while great I wouldn't say those D's were historic, record-setters like this one.

As far as Fletcher, et al......its always going to be difficult to portion out credit/blame between system/coaching/personnel on any given NFL unit, I don't think there's any objective basis to say yes or no.....but in my perspective he's not in that group, nor were any of his defensive units among the all-time elite. Urlacher much closer, that D with a better claim to greatness....just IMO he's not quite it. All opinions.

As far as Lewis and the Ravens......they've been an elite D for well over a decade, regardless of where exactly they ranked from year to year. Obviously team performance can rise and fall based on the quality of personnel - of course even HOFers can't do it alone. But my point only point was like I said, all the best ones I've watched were led by LBs - take it for what its worth, no grand conclusion being made.

 

[MW49ers5]

Obviously that role was played by Lott, who obviously isn't an MLB......but while great I wouldn't say those D's were historic, record-setters like this one.

As far as Fletcher, et al......its always going to be difficult to portion out credit/blame between system/coaching/personnel on any given NFL unit, I don't think there's any objective basis to say yes or no.....but in my perspective he's not in that group, nor were any of his defensive units among the all-time elite. Urlacher much closer, that D with a better claim to greatness....just IMO he's not quite it. All opinions.

As far as Lewis and the Ravens......they've been an elite D for well over a decade, regardless of where exactly they ranked from year to year. Obviously team performance can rise and fall based on the quality of personnel - of course even HOFers can't do it alone. But my point only point was like I said, all the best ones I've watched were led by LBs - take it for what its worth, no grand conclusion being made.

Actually, Space it was Hacksaw, Ellison, Fahnhorst, Walter et at. But I understand the point you're trying to make.

 

[imac_21]

Obviously that role was played by Lott, who obviously isn't an MLB......but while great I wouldn't say those D's were historic, record-setters like this one.

As far as Fletcher, et al......its always going to be difficult to portion out credit/blame between system/coaching/personnel on any given NFL unit, I don't think there's any objective basis to say yes or no.....but in my perspective he's not in that group. Urlacher much closer, that D with a better claim to greatness....just IMO he's not quite it. All opinions.

As far as Lewis and the Ravens......they've been an elite D for well over a decade, regardless of where exactly they ranked from year to year. Obviously team performance can rise and fall based on the quality of personnel - of course even HOFers can't do it alone. But my point only point was like I said, all the best ones I've watched were led by LBs - take it for what its worth, no grand conclusion being made.

So if the great Niner defenses were great without a great MLB, is it possible that the great MLB is not necessary?

If you switch Urlacher and Lewis, is the Chicago defense one of the all time greats and Baltimore just a very good D with a claim to greatness?

How about the 2002 Bucs? They had Shelton Quarles at MLB.

 

[Mozart'sGhost]

Yes. I would pack his bags for him, drive him to the airport and grab him a ticket for the Indy 500.

I would then sign Grant to an extension and go pour myself a Pliny the Elder and wait. I understand the argument to keep Willis, and there are some very good arguments in doing so, but I believe that Luck is going to a franchise QB for years to come.

As clyde said; that's what it comes down to. If you believe he will be a franchise-type QB then you make the trade. QB is too important a position to pass up. I am not convinced about Luck so I'll keep Willis.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

So if the great Niner defenses were great without a great MLB, is it possible that the great MLB is not necessary?

Are you imagining that I was making some Grand Theory of Great Defenses, or voicing a little observation I made a while back? Was only referring to my three top defenses, take it or leave it. Man......

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

Actually, Space it was Hacksaw, Ellison, Fahnhorst, Walter et at. But I understand the point you're trying to make.

Lott was the "Ray Lewis" of that defense, no doubt.....figuratively, not literally, is what I meant.

 

[Mozart'sGhost]

I'm neither.....who's better? I'd accept the Steel Curtain and the Parcells Giants as acceptable alternatives......though as you surely know, even in this relatively offensive era the Niners have better numbers than both those teams.

Those are two, the great Eagles defenses of Jerome Brown, Clyde Simmons and Reggie White come to mind, the Dallas Doomsday Defenses, The Rams defenses of Deacon Jones, Merlin Olsen and Rosey Grier, the Purple People Eaters in Minnesota. This is not even the best 49er defense. Remember the '94 team or how 'bout the 1970 and 71 teams?

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

The 94 team that gave up 40 points in one game to the Eagles....a home game at that? Not even close. Deion was absurdly good at the time, plenty of playmakers on that team, but that unit had holes.

The 70s stuff you'll have to judge on your own......I'm definitely too young for that. But I have a hard time comparing anything from those days to anything these days, the game is just too different.

 

[imac_21]

Are you imagining that I was making some Grand Theory of Great Defenses, or voicing a little observation I made a while back? Was only referring to my three top defenses, take it or leave it. Man......

In a thread about trading a great ILB for a potential franchise QB you bring up that the three greatest defenses you've ever seen all had elite MLBs. . .

And it was intended to be just a little observation with no consequence to the thread?

Really?

 

[Mozart'sGhost]

The 94 team that gave up 40 points in one game to the Eagles....a home game at that? Not even close. Deion was absurdly good at the time, plenty of playmakers on that team, but that unit had holes.

The 70s stuff you'll have to judge on your own......I'm definitely too young for that. But I have a hard time comparing anything from those days to anything these days, the game is just too different.

Fair enough.