Active HOFers?

[navamind]

I guess hitting doesn't matter though. Mark Belanger for HOF!

 

[navamind]

Catcher JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

Catcher JAWS Leaders

www.baseball-reference.com

You can see how Molina stacks up to other catchers. He's 21st in WAR and 22nd JAWS. Pudge actually edges him out in defensive WAR, and that's before your get into hitting.

 

[PackJason.]

No, I do care about defense. And there's no question he's one of the greatest defensive catchers of all-time. But even so, there's a lot less uncertainty with defensive metrics than pitching or hitting, especially when it comes to catchers. Just looks at pitch framing. I think it's a skill, but I'm not sure it's as impactful as metrics would suggest, just because I think there's a decent amount of umpire error at play. It's also had to get a good idea of how much value a catchers game calling provides.

It's amazing to me that a baseball fan doesn't care about defense. Especially from the catcher.

 

[PackJason.]

I guess hitting doesn't matter though. Mark Belanger for HOF!

Hitting matters. And Molina is a good hitter ... but his speed sucks. That's his only drawback.

 

[calsnowskier]

Sure, if you care more about hitting out of your catcher. I don't. Molina is a great balance of good hitting and great catching. How many GGs does Posey have? Only one?

How many GGs does Jeter have? Are you saying he was an elite defensive SS?

I agree that defense at the catcher position is more important than at other positions. Likely moreso than for the other elite defensive positions of SS and CF. But Posey is not some Schlub behind the dish. He is also all-time elite defensively. I would argue that he is very comparable to Yaddy.

 

[calsnowskier]

It's amazing to me that a baseball fan doesn't care about defense. Especially from the catcher.

Come on, (straw)man…

 

[navamind]

It's amazing to me that a baseball fan doesn't care about defense. Especially from the catcher.

Not what I said, but okay.

Hitting matters. And Molina is a good hitter ... but his speed sucks. That's his only drawback

Yes, and there are catchers with far superior batting stats. If catcher is a historically weak offensive position, then shouldn't being a good hitter have even more value? Look at Piazza. Yes he was not a good defensive catcher, but he was still able to stick to the position for the majority of this career. And the fact that he was able to do so while hitting like an elite first baseman (something catchers rarely ever do) is awfully valuable if you ask me. I don't think he's the greatest, but I'd probably put him to 5. I think Bench and Carter are the top two.

 

[PackJason.]

How many GGs does Jeter have? Are you saying he was an elite defensive SS?

I agree that defense at the catcher position is more important than at other positions. Likely moreso than for the other elite defensive positions of SS and CF. But Posey is not some Schlub behind the dish. He is also all-time elite defensively. I would argue that he is very comparable to Yaddy.

Jeter had a few GGs and was one of the best hitting SSs of all time. I'm not sure what weird point you're trying to make. Posey doesn't hold a candle to Molina behind the plate. Your homerism is showing.

 

[PackJason.]

Not what I said, but okay.



Yes, and there are catchers with far superior batting stats. If catcher is a historically weak offensive position, then shouldn't being a good hitter have even more value? Look at Piazza. Yes he was not a good defensive catcher, but he was still able to stick to the position for the majority of this career. And the fact that he was able to do so while hitting like an elite first baseman (something catchers rarely ever do) is awfully valuable if you ask me. I don't think he's the greatest, but I'd probably put him to 5. I think Bench and Carter are the top two.

Bench
Berra
Molina

There is no other order.

(This is sure to piss some people off lol)

 

[navamind]

Yes, an award that Palmeiro won while playing 28 games at 1st base is a great barometer for defense.

 

[calsnowskier]

Jeter had a few GGs and was one of the best hitting SSs of all time. I'm not sure what weird point you're trying to make. Posey doesn't hold a candle to Molina behind the plate. Your homerism is showing.

You really need to get off your knees. I am not sure Yaddy appreciates your efforts…

Your ignorance at Posey’s defense is astounding. And his ability to handle a pitching staff.

 

[calsnowskier]

Bench
Berra
Molina

There is no other order.

(This is sure to piss some people off lol)

Have you ever heard of a guy named Carlton Fisk?


(or Josh Gibson?)

 

[PackJason.]

Yes, an award that Palmeiro won while playing 28 games at 1st base is a great barometer for defense.

That's the stupid shit that happens with the DH and the AL.

 

[PackJason.]

Have you ever heard of a guy named Carlton Fisk?

Yep, I'd place him right behind Molina.

 

[calsnowskier]

Yep, I'd place him right behind Molina.

 

[PackJason.]

You really need to get off your knees. I am not sure Yaddy appreciates your efforts…

Your ignorance at Posey’s defense is astounding. And his ability to handle a pitching staff.

You need to stop garggling your homerism. I'm a Brewers fan. Do you think I've enjoyed playing against the best catcher since Bench every year?

 

[msgkings322]

Sure, if you care more about hitting out of your catcher. I don't. Molina is a great balance of good hitting and great catching. How many GGs does Posey have? Only one?

Point is, HOF voters do care a lot

 

[PackJason.]

Only one GG.

 

[PackJason.]

Point is, HOF voters do care a lot

That, I can't argue with.

 

[navamind]

That's the stupid shit that happens with the DH and the AL.

Nah, just looks like lazy award voting. Palmeiro won Gold Gloves in '97 and '98 while playing 1st base the entire seasons. It's almost like it's an award based on reputation...