A.L. Central Smack Talk 2014

[gandydancer]

One reason why hate 752 stats for baseball. You can cherry pick to make a arguement look good or in this case you making Dabums assumption OPS+ for Trout not look as good.

IMO it's awesome both get in conversation together these days. At least good for baseball. I still feel it is Miggy. I also know someday he will pass the torch and most likely to Trout.

That you was Howie I was referring to...

 

[burfboy]

Who u rather have right now.....Miggy......

 

[gandydancer]

I build a offense around Miggy.

 

[Howie115]

But if you're going to say people bringing up suuch stats are "cherry picking," isn't Howie doing the same? RISP stats only account for so many of a player's overall plate appearances.

I absolutely AM cherry picking -- to make a point about how OPS+ (or any one stat) doesn't tell the whole story.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I build a offense around Miggy.

I build a team around Trout.


Good hitting 1B aren't too hard to find, so although you won't find another Miggy, you can still find productive 1B (Encarnacion, Goldschmidtt, Abreu, Rizzo, Freeman, Votto, etc). With a position like CF, after Trout, McCutchen and Gomez, there's a steep dropoff.

 

[BUD]

Tigers up 5-0 now. A. Sanchez putting on a show. The way it should be.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Yeah, I agreed on the "better overall player" for Trout. But there's more to hitting than OPS+ stats. For example, Cabrera has been unbelievably clutch the last few years. Comparing the two in RISP and 2 outs/RISP stats since Trout's first full season:

CABRERA

2012 RISP: .356 BA / .424 OBP / 170 sOPS+
2012 RISP/2 outs: .420 BA / .491 OBP / 239 sOPS+

2013 RISP: .397 BA / .529 OBP / 259 sOPS+
2013 RISP/2-outs: .459 BA / .612 OBP / s348 OPS+

2014 RISP: .394 BA / .440 OBP / s196 OPS+
2014 RISP/2 outs: .391 BA / .500 OBP / s260 OPS+


TROUT

2012 RISP: .324 BA / .393 OBP / 156 sOPS+
2012 RISP/2 outs: .286 BA / .435 OBP / 122 sOPS+

2013 RISP: .324 BA / .457 OBP / 174 sOPS+
2013 RISP/2 outs: .290 BA / .450 OBP / 181 sOPS+

2014 RISP: .316 BA / .403 OBP / 197 sOPS+
2014 RISP/2 outs: .261 BA / .452 OBP / 156 sOPS+

All those numbers you posted are included in OPS+ (which takes into account all plate appearances), so I'm not sure how much of a 'boost' RISP stats give Cabrera when it's not as if Trout stinks in those situations, and RISP situations tend to happen less than a third of a player's plate appearances.

 

[Cleaves2000]

Ill take the MVP and world series champion miggy....until trout wins an MVP or 2 or wins or just makes the playoffs, ill take miggy....,bums already said it....take miggy off the tigers, and their lineup is avg....take trout off the angels and the angels will still miss the playoffs, like they do with him.



Miggy and the martinez boys.....clubbing us to a 4 game lead.....tigers interested in benoit or street? Maybe....

 

[Cleaves2000]

I build a team around Trout.


Good hitting 1B aren't too hard to find, so although you won't find another Miggy, you can still find productive 1B (Encarnacion, Goldschmidtt, Abreu, Rizzo, Freeman, Votto, etc). With a position like CF, after Trout, McCutchen and Gomez, there's a steep dropoff.

What happened to the days when a guy was just better than a guy no matter what position he played....so just because most teams have good 1B, trout is better? Strange....ill take the triple crown winner until he is dethroned...i dont care for all those nerd stats...obviously they must dont tell the whole story since the angels are yet to win with trout and his WAR or OPS+ or his E=MC2...ill take the guy who drives in guys in the clutch...has made multiple playoff runs....but whatever....

 

[broncosmitty]

All those numbers you posted are included in OPS+ (which takes into account all plate appearances), so I'm not sure how much of a 'boost' RISP stats give Cabrera when it's not as if Trout stinks in those situations, and RISP situations tend to happen less than a third of a player's plate appearances.

RISP may be only a third, but the importance of that third is immense. Nothing as a hitter has more value to a team. (Plus sign stats aren't real.)

 

[StanMarsh51]

Ill take the MVP and world series champion miggy....until trout wins an MVP or 2 or wins or just makes the playoffs, ill take miggy....,bums already said it....take miggy off the tigers, and their lineup is avg....take trout off the angels and the angels will still miss the playoffs, like they do with him.



Miggy and the martinez boys.....clubbing us to a 4 game lead.....tigers interested in benoit or street? Maybe....

If you were to use that logic, then there must be a hundred seasons you'd take over Barry Bonds' 2001.

And if you were to stay consistent with your claims above, you should say that Cabrera had no business finishing #2 in MVP voting in 2010 when the Tigers were in 3rd place.

 

[Cleaves2000]

If you were to use that logic, then there must be a hundred seasons you'd take over Barry Bonds' 2001.

And if you were to stay consistent with your claims above, you should say that Cabrera had no business finishing #2 in MVP voting in 2010 when the Tigers were in 3rd place.

Why he didnt win, he came in 2nd....MVP WINNER should at least make the post season...last i remember barry bonds had been to the post season in his career in 2001.....trout ZERO times....

 

[StanMarsh51]

What happened to the days when a guy was just better than a guy no matter what position he played....so just because most teams have good 1B, trout is better? Strange....ill take the triple crown winner until he is dethroned...i dont care for all those nerd stats...obviously they must dont tell the whole story since the angels are yet to win with trout and his WAR or OPS+ or his E=MC2...ill take the guy who drives in guys in the clutch...has made multiple playoff runs....but whatever....

Do you really not understand the concept of scarcity value? You must certainly think that a catcher who hits .300 with 30 HR is clearly inferior to a 1st baseman who hits .305 with 32 HR...because after all, why does position matter?

 

[StanMarsh51]

Why he didnt win, he came in 2nd....MVP WINNER should at least make the post season...last i remember barry bonds had been to the post season in his career in 2001.....trout ZERO times....

What does Barry Bonds' career prior to 2001 have to do with the 2001 MVP? Do you honestly think voters voted for Bonds because he made the playoffs in prior years, which has no effect on what happened in the 2001 season?

Come on Cleaves, I know you're not stupid. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[Cleaves2000]

Do you really not understand the concept of scarcity value?

Nope....and dont care......prolly a nerd stat......all i know is i think miggy is better....until trout takes the belt from him....make a postseason first....win a post season series next....be a champion....win a few MVP's....it isnt like miggy is washed up hitting .240......hell if were just going of stats after 75 games this year vmart is the man....but miggy IS the best baseball player in the world...i know thats hard for you since you got a woody for trout....just wondering....do u ever get tired of coming into an al central smack talk board and continually use nerd stats against every detroit tiger argument in here....if were talking pitching, you post nerd stats to tell us how bad detroit is....or something about the lineup, but yet they just keep on winning.....its like the detroit tigers trainrailed your mom or sumthin....

 

[Cleaves2000]

Do you really not understand the concept of scarcity value? You must certainly think that a catcher who hits .300 with 30 HR is clearly inferior to a 1st baseman who hits .305 with 32 HR...because after all, why does position matter?

Sure....but miggy hitting .302 is a bad year....usually more around .332.....did miggy only bat .05 better than trout?

 

[Cleaves2000]

What does Barry Bonds' career prior to 2001 have to do with the 2001 MVP? Do you honestly think voters voted for Bonds because he made the playoffs in prior years, which has no effect on what happened in the 2001 season?

Come on Cleaves, I know you're not stupid. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

You brought up bonds of 01.....i dont think u can claim best ballplayer when you have NEVER tasted the postseason......bonds was the best player of his time....MVP....winner....just never won the big one...trout will NEVER put up bonds numbers....NEVER!!!!

 

[StanMarsh51]

Sure....but miggy hitting .302 is a bad year....usually more around .332.....did miggy only bat .05 better than trout?

Since 2012 Cabrera's hitting 13 points better than Trout.

Is that a huge difference in your world, especially when the AL West since that period has been a better pitching division?

 

[Cleaves2000]

If you were to use that logic, then there must be a hundred seasons you'd take over Barry Bonds' 2001.

And if you were to stay consistent with your claims above, you should say that Cabrera had no business finishing #2 in MVP voting in 2010 when the Tigers were in 3rd place.

Im still not understanding your point...i said take miggy off and theyre avg...prolly miss playoffs....that shows how good miggy is.....same with bonds....take trout off and the angels are still bad...why would i take a hundred seasons over bonds??? If i took bonds off the giants??? Then what?? Im not understanding. They would be better without bonds???? Lost

 

[StanMarsh51]

Nope....and dont care......prolly a nerd stat......all i know is i think miggy is better....until trout takes the belt from him....make a postseason first....win a post season series next....be a champion....win a few MVP's....it isnt like miggy is washed up hitting .240......hell if were just going of stats after 75 games this year vmart is the man....but miggy IS the best baseball player in the world...i know thats hard for you since you got a woody for trout....just wondering....do u ever get tired of coming into an al central smack talk board and continually use nerd stats against every detroit tiger argument in here....if were talking pitching, you post nerd stats to tell us how bad detroit is....or something about the lineup, but yet they just keep on winning.....its like the detroit tigers trainrailed your mom or sumthin....

It's economics 101 (which probably says you've never taken basic economics).

If good housing is scarce and many want the good housing, the value increases.
If good jewelry is scarce and many want the good jewelry, the value increases.
If good players at a position is scarce and many teams want good players at that position, the value increases.

You don't even need the Econ101 class to know that...it's common sense. Why do you think the likes of Ripken, Jeff Kent, Pudge, Rollins, Larkin, Pedroia etc can win MVPs despite not having the best numbers? Because they play positions where high production is scarce, thus making them valuable.


It's common sense, man.