3-4

[TwoCents22]

If my understanding of dead money is correct, it comes mostly, if not all, from either a signing bonus(in which a player is cut before all of the years are finished that it is spread) or restructures? Is this right? If so:

2 questions:

1. Would we ever be able to sign any decent free agents by offering signing bonuses at fractions of what every other team offers?

2. Had we not restructured anybody since signing Megatron to his huge deal, would we have been able to sign any of the FA's on our roster who were/are key contributors to our team?(Quinn, Digs, Mathis, Mosley, Tate, Bush, Prater, Jones, even our own Levy)

Just curious

 

[TwoCents22]

Ok, seems I ended this conversation with questions that can't be answered.

Moving on, instead of starting a new thread, I'll bump this one. Seeing as to how the rumors are getting stronger about us switching to a 3-4.

I would like to go on record as saying that would be a mistake. I'm not a fan of the 3-4, but I do think under the right circumstances, it can thrive. The D-line has to be stout, be able to eat up blockers, and not worry about recognition. Jason Jones is perfect for that. He's definitely not a superior 3-4 DE, but he's capable of starting. Other than him, we don't really have another quality DE or NT on our roster. Next, for a 3-4 to be successful, you have to have pass rushing beasts with speed at OLB. Ziggy can fit that profile, maybe. We don't have another guy. I'm sure they will hype up Van Noy, but he didn't give any signs last year. As of our current roster, we would probably be starting George Johnson at OLB with KVN filling in.

Last, your least important positions in the front 7 are ILB's(note: not saying they aren't important), which Levy, our 2nd best defensive player the last 2 years, would now have his value diminished.

I would support the move maybe if both Ziggy and Van Noy were beasts. But they're both still unproven. Let it be known I am not in support of switching.

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

2. Had we not restructured anybody since signing Megatron to his huge deal, would we have been able to sign any of the FA's on our roster who were/are key contributors to our team?(Quinn, Digs, Mathis, Mosley, Tate, Bush, Prater, Jones, even our own Levy)

Suh's re-structures had a big part to do with Quin, Bush and Mathis signings not just CJ's
Ndamukong Suh is gone, but Detroit Lions aren't done paying for him
In 2011, the Lions paid Suh a $17.35-million option bonus that, by rule, was spread equally over five years for cap purposes ($3.47 million per year).

In 2012, the Lions restructured Suh's contract for the first time by converting most of his base salary into a signing bonus in order to help them sign free agents Reggie Bush, Glover Quin and Jason Jones and finalize a contract extension for Calvin Johnson. That move freed up more than $7 million in cap room but pushed an extra $2.4275 million into the final three years of Suh's contract.

A year later, the Lions borrowed against Suh's deal again, converting $11.5 million of base salary into signing bonus, at a cost of $3.84 million to future years.

All told, Suh will count $9,737,500 in "dead" money against this year's cap. That includes the $3.47 million from his option bonus, $2.4275 million from his first contract restructuring and $3.84 million from his second.

BB_72 : BTW, 2cents, great post up top

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

If my understanding of dead money is correct, it comes mostly, if not all, from either a signing bonus(in which a player is cut before all of the years are finished that it is spread) or restructures? Is this right? If so:

Yes. Any bonus that is spread out over several years (no more than 5) will be applied against the teams cap if the player is released prior to those annual amounts being applied. Depending upon when the player is released does offer some options to the team. The team can make a designation on up to two players of a pre-June 1 release. If they do so it lets them spread the amount that has not yet been amortized over two years. So it there is $10m dead they can take it as $5m one year and $5m the next. If that designation is not made then all of it will apply to that year. If the cut comes after that date then only the amount for that year is applied and the entirety of the remainder is applied next year. That is why the release of Houston last year applied $1.3m but will now apply $3.9m.

2 questions:

1. Would we ever be able to sign any decent free agents by offering signing bonuses at fractions of what every other team offers?

2. Had we not restructured anybody since signing Megatron to his huge deal, would we have been able to sign any of the FA's on our roster who were/are key contributors to our team?(Quinn, Digs, Mathis, Mosley, Tate, Bush, Prater, Jones, even our own Levy)

#1 Yes, its actually quite easy. You would simply use an option bonus in the years that follow. For example, is an offer of a $15m signing bonus with salaries of $4m and $6m really a better deal for the player than one of a $5m signing bonus with salaries of $3m and $4m but an $18m option bonus in year two? And depending on how many years the team may choose to spread out the amortization of the smaller signing bonus and the larger option bonus the team may even have smaller cap hits in those first two years. This is where the importance of layering in different player contracts becomes so important

#2 Yes, but perhaps no. We had other options than just restructuring. I had suggested that releasing Shaun Hill was a much better option. A back up QB that at $3.5m who you don't want to play even one single snap was a much more acceptable risk than restructuring. The handling of the other cuts we did could have been different (see above answer), extensions could have been a possible option vs restructuring. Even the player on whom the restructured deals were done could have been different if a combination of all of the above was different.

Lewand simply is not any good at what he does. That should not surprise anyone though. He was wildly unqualified for the position when he was hired and its really that simple. I have been warning everyone about this for years and here you have the consequences I've been speaking of. The only difference now is the coverage from the media who no longer wants to praise him but are bashing him for the Suh situation. He's earned that with years of terrible cap mgmt.

 

[RobBase]

He's reportedly seeking $8+ million per season...

Bears signed him. Great pick up.

 

[RobBase]

Yes. Any bonus that is spread out over several years (no more than 5) will be applied against the teams cap if the player is released prior to those annual amounts being applied. Depending upon when the player is released does offer some options to the team. The team can make a designation on up to two players of a pre-June 1 release. If they do so it lets them spread the amount that has not yet been amortized over two years. So it there is $10m dead they can take it as $5m one year and $5m the next. If that designation is not made then all of it will apply to that year. If the cut comes after that date then only the amount for that year is applied and the entirety of the remainder is applied next year. That is why the release of Houston last year applied $1.3m but will now apply $3.9m.



#1 Yes, its actually quite easy. You would simply use an option bonus in the years that follow. For example, is an offer of a $15m signing bonus with salaries of $4m and $6m really a better deal for the player than one of a $5m signing bonus with salaries of $3m and $4m but an $18m option bonus in year two? And depending on how many years the team may choose to spread out the amortization of the smaller signing bonus and the larger option bonus the team may even have smaller cap hits in those first two years. This is where the importance of layering in different player contracts becomes so important

#2 Yes, but perhaps no. We had other options than just restructuring. I had suggested that releasing Shaun Hill was a much better option. A back up QB that at $3.5m who you don't want to play even one single snap was a much more acceptable risk than restructuring. The handling of the other cuts we did could have been different (see above answer), extensions could have been a possible option vs restructuring. Even the player on whom the restructured deals were done could have been different if a combination of all of the above was different.

Lewand simply is not any good at what he does. That should not surprise anyone though. He was wildly unqualified for the position when he was hired and its really that simple. I have been warning everyone about this for years and here you have the consequences I've been speaking of. The only difference now is the coverage from the media who no longer wants to praise him but are bashing him for the Suh situation. He's earned that with years of terrible cap mgmt.

So go apply for the job. You won't lure anyone here capable of taking the North or winning a SB either.

Window is closed. Only hope is finding another once in a lifetime star w a top 2 pick and our next GM being smart enough to draft well and build a championship team around him during the time said player is in Detroit, and before he leaves via FA.

 

[Quackerjacked]

I think we would look great with Tully and Levy at inside. Van Noy and Ansah at OLB. With Whitehead subbing in when Ansah puts his hand downt. Jones and Taylor are actually built pretty well to be 3-4 defensive ends. The only thing that we're missing is NT. you can find some good space eating NT for moderate money. Possible Wilfork and then someone bargain like Shaun Cody or draft a guy on day 2 or 3.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

I think we would look great with Tully and Levy at inside. Van Noy and Ansah at OLB. With Whitehead subbing in when Ansah puts his hand downt. Jones and Taylor are actually built pretty well to be 3-4 defensive ends. The only thing that we're missing is NT. you can find some good space eating NT for moderate money. Possible Wilfork and then someone bargain like Shaun Cody or draft a guy on day 2 or 3.

I'm now completely on board with this and going to the 3-4. Maybe that was part of the plan all along cause I don't see how we play a 4-3 with no DT's.

Spend everything to try and outbid the Raiders on Knighton and everyone else on Revis. Move up in the draft to get Scherff and another RB in the third round.

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

I believe it was a tell-tale sign for a 3-4 alignment coming when

1.) once it was clear SUH was gone and reports linked AZ NT Dan Williams was on our radar
2.) reports from the combine when both Mayhew/Caldwell stated they had the personnel for a 3-4 and not much changes were needed to employ that.
3.) there's not much left in the market with 3-tech DT's.... Fairley, Langford, Mosley

I also don't think we need to give up draft picks, probably our 1st and 2nd this year, to move up and draft Scherff. If we wait it out, I honestly believe either La'el Collins (LG/RT, he's viewed more as LG than a RT, but you never know with some teams thought process) or Cameron Irving (LG/C). Both of these at #23 should be a MASSIVE UPGRADE at LG, for either of these 2, or for Erving at C, battling it out with Swanson, as the latter would be moved to LG

 

[tpaulus_2]

Multiple fronts man. Call it a hybrid because the "new" defenses can't be pigeon-holed as a 4-3 or a 3-4. We can run what we need to against whatever the opponent has to offer now, be that a 4 man front or a 3 man front...

 

[jdwills126]

The more I think about it the more I think the Lions are going to the 3-4. The Lions have enough pieces to run it but more importantly it gives Mayhew a built in excuse if the Lions defense drops.

It's not the total inability to get pieces to keep the defense at a high level it's it takes time to implement the 3-4.

 

[gandydancer]

The more I think about it the more I think the Lions are going to the 3-4. The Lions have enough pieces to run it but more importantly it gives Mayhew a built in excuse if the Lions defense drops.

It's not the total inability to get pieces to keep the defense at a high level it's it takes time to implement the 3-4.

You may be onto something here. Some people believe anything Mayhew says.

 

[gandydancer]

So you figured out the cake thing LP? Now if you did, please explain

 

[LionsWhyMe]

I can remember a lot of you thinking the Tampa 2 was going to be more than it was. I think someone already said "if it's not broke why fix it?"

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

NO switch to a 3-4 base defense. not happening. I was dead wrong in my quick twitch thinking.

No drastic changes for Lions' defensive scheme

Ngata played the majority of his snaps at nose tackle in Baltimore’s 3-4 scheme, and the Lions have a plethora of versatile defensive ends and linebackers that can rush the quarterback with their hand in the dirt or standing up, but Lions head coach Jim Caldwell wasn’t about to try and fix something that wasn't broken.

It’s not going to look any different than it did last year,” Caldwell said at the NFC coaches breakfast Wednesday at the NFL Annual Meetings in Phoenix.

It wouldn’t have made a lot of sense to change a unit that finished second overall in total defense in 2014 behind only Seattle, just because they lost a great tackle in Suh. Granted, Suh was a dominant defensive tackle, and he made everyone around him better, but it takes 11 to play good defense.

The Lions also think Ngata will have an impact on players around him, much like Suh did.

The Lions defense tied an NFL record by holding opponents to less than 100 rushing yards 14 times last year. Ngata excels at playing the run.
“We were extremely multiple," Caldwell said. "We did a little bit of everything. And I think you’ll see the same thing this fall.”

The Lions will still be a base 4-3 defense with Ngata and Tyrunn Walker, who was signed in free agency, manning the middle of the defensive line. Austin will, however, have the ability to play 3-4 concepts at times and give teams multiple fronts and rush packages based on personnel

 

[RobBase]

Never felt like they were going to a 3-4.

 

[RobBase]

I can remember a lot of you thinking the Tampa 2 was going to be more than it was. I think someone already said "if it's not broke why fix it?"

That's close to the Mayhew theory, which goes something like, "if it's broken, draft another pass catcher."

 

[jdwills126]

It would not surpass me if they went to the 3-4. Mayhew and Lewand said they wee confident a deal with Suh would get done. Until they line up in game 1 I am not sure.

 

[themuzzer]

I'm going with a more soccer style approach.......a 3-4-3-1........Glover Quinn as our goalie.......

 

[LionsWhyMe]

That's close to the Mayhew theory, which goes something like, "if it's broken, draft another pass catcher."

I thought it was to draft what's broken so the brass had excuses for failures