21-22 Season - Jekyll or Hyde ?

[FlyerFinFan]

The Ellis/Myers/Patrick trade was simple hockey. Myers is clearly the biggest question mark of the trade, is he at a wall or is there more? We already know Ellis can play, question is his healthiness so there's that if factor, makes it a pretty fair exchange, both teams taking a risk. Patrick wanted out and he got his wish and I'm sure Nashville dealt him before the original deal was done. He obviously felt he shouldn't be held accountable for his poor play IMO.

Yes exactly but if Patrick had no value then why did Vegas give up a 1st round player in Glass then? Everyone knows that they still have potential and in some cases a new environment can bring out the best in players. Ellis was the surest thing in this trade which the Flyers desperately needed so I applaud the move. Proves a point that you can't be too young or too old in this league so hopefully Ellis fills that void.

I do agree that they are not done yet as they could still use another solid dman. If they keep Ghost I think we all can agree that he needs to be sheltered on the 3rd pairing and receive PP time. If that is done he can be effective but someone else needs to be on the 2nd pairing with Sanheim. Also where does York fit in next year?

 

[lasgop8]

The Ellis/Myers/Patrick trade was simple hockey. Myers is clearly the biggest question mark of the trade, is he at a wall or is there more? We already know Ellis can play, question is his healthiness so there's that if factor, makes it a pretty fair exchange, both teams taking a risk. Patrick wanted out and he got his wish and I'm sure Nashville dealt him before the original deal was done. He obviously felt he shouldn't be held accountable for his poor play IMO.

I have been trying to get this message across for the last hour. Excellent breakdown

 

[Chris p Bacon]

Yes exactly but if Patrick had no value then why did Vegas give up a 1st round player in Glass then? Everyone knows that they still have potential and in some cases a new environment can bring out the best in players. Ellis was the surest thing in this trade which the Flyers desperately needed so I applaud the move. Proves a point that you can't be too young or too old in this league so hopefully Ellis fills that void.

I do agree that they are not done yet as they could still use another solid dman. If they keep Ghost I think we all can agree that he needs to be sheltered on the 3rd pairing and receive PP time. If that is done he can be effective but someone else needs to be on the 2nd pairing with Sanheim. Also where does York fit in next year?

I never said Patrick had no value, just that he wanted out of Philly. Obviously Vegas sees some potential in him or maybe they needed a cheap 3c? I'm sure Nashville got what they wanted also.

 

[lasgop8]

Yes exactly but if Patrick had no value then why did Vegas give up a 1st round player in Glass then? Everyone knows that they still have potential and in some cases a new environment can bring out the best in players. Ellis was the surest thing in this trade which the Flyers desperately needed so I applaud the move. Proves a point that you can't be too young or too old in this league so hopefully Ellis fills that void.

I do agree that they are not done yet as they could still use another solid dman. If they keep Ghost I think we all can agree that he needs to be sheltered on the 3rd pairing and receive PP time. If that is done he can be effective but someone else needs to be on the 2nd pairing with Sanheim. Also where does York fit in next year?

I really hope were not done that would be terrible. I have to believe Fletcher at this time who says we aren't done but its very hard to make trades when players values are so low.

 

[awaz]

Yes exactly but if Patrick had no value then why did Vegas give up a 1st round player in Glass then? Everyone knows that they still have potential and in some cases a new environment can bring out the best in players. Ellis was the surest thing in this trade which the Flyers desperately needed so I applaud the move. Proves a point that you can't be too young or too old in this league so hopefully Ellis fills that void.

I do agree that they are not done yet as they could still use another solid dman. If they keep Ghost I think we all can agree that he needs to be sheltered on the 3rd pairing and receive PP time. If that is done he can be effective but someone else needs to be on the 2nd pairing with Sanheim. Also where does York fit in next year?

Yep. Slice it any way you want, you don't get a top pair dman for two guys with limited/no value. They had a bad year. Patrick has had two of them if you count the injury as bad. Nashville (and Vegas) saw value in both players and traded a legitimate top pair dman for them. Every team values different things. Nashville valued the potential of Myers and Glass, the Flyers got today's best player, and Vegas got a C with a high ceiling in Patrick.

I'm sure Fletcher thinks the mix is still wrong on defense. You could slide Ghost or Sanheim to the right side to make room for York, but you either end up with a Sanheim/Ghost pair, or a York/Ghost pair. And I don't think that's what he wants to go with. IMO, Ghost is the first guy he'll look to move to create cap space (and a roster opening for York). Followed by Voracek. Personally, I doubt he tries to move JvR, though he may be the easier one to move. He's still productive and his contract is only for 2 more years. Plus all the news a week or so ago about telling Voracek moving him is a possibility this summer.

 

[FlyerFinFan]

Yep. Slice it any way you want, you don't get a top pair dman for two guys with limited/no value. They had a bad year. Patrick has had two of them if you count the injury as bad. Nashville (and Vegas) saw value in both players and traded a legitimate top pair dman for them. Every team values different things. Nashville valued the potential of Myers and Glass, the Flyers got today's best player, and Vegas got a C with a high ceiling in Patrick.

I'm sure Fletcher thinks the mix is still wrong on defense. You could slide Ghost or Sanheim to the right side to make room for York, but you either end up with a Sanheim/Ghost pair, or a York/Ghost pair. And I don't think that's what he wants to go with. IMO, Ghost is the first guy he'll look to move to create cap space (and a roster opening for York). Followed by Voracek. Personally, I doubt he tries to move JvR, though he may be the easier one to move. He's still productive and his contract is only for 2 more years. Plus all the news a week or so ago about telling Voracek moving him is a possibility this summer.

Agreed something has to give as I don't believe that they think Sanheim/Braun is a good option either. Unless they think York is ready for top 4 minutes with Sanheim? Then you'd have Ghost/Braun which wouldn't be horrible if Ghost can keep things on the rails.

 

[FlyerFinFan]

I really hope were not done that would be terrible. I have to believe Fletcher at this time who says we aren't done but its very hard to make trades when players values are so low.

There are always moves to make you just don't want to get ripped off in the process. He did a great job with Ellis so there is hope. They just may have to take back another teams ? to make it happen.

 

[awaz]

Agreed something has to give as I don't believe that they think Sanheim/Braun is a good option either. Unless they think York is ready for top 4 minutes with Sanheim? Then you'd have Ghost/Braun which wouldn't be horrible if Ghost can keep things on the rails.

A lot to ask of York, but that could be OK. Doesn't seem to be Fletcher's preferred solution, but Sanheim/York and Ghost/Braun could work. Still need to find room for a real backup goalie somehow too though.

I think he finds a way to move Voracek to make room for a dman and a backup goalie. Go in to the season with Laughton/Frost as your 3C contenders.

 

[chy1127]

Yep. Slice it any way you want, you don't get a top pair dman for two guys with limited/no value. They had a bad year. Patrick has had two of them if you count the injury as bad. Nashville (and Vegas) saw value in both players and traded a legitimate top pair dman for them. Every team values different things. Nashville valued the potential of Myers and Glass, the Flyers got today's best player, and Vegas got a C with a high ceiling in Patrick.

I'm sure Fletcher thinks the mix is still wrong on defense. You could slide Ghost or Sanheim to the right side to make room for York, but you either end up with a Sanheim/Ghost pair, or a York/Ghost pair. And I don't think that's what he wants to go with. IMO, Ghost is the first guy he'll look to move to create cap space (and a roster opening for York). Followed by Voracek. Personally, I doubt he tries to move JvR, though he may be the easier one to move. He's still productive and his contract is only for 2 more years. Plus all the news a week or so ago about telling Voracek moving him is a possibility this summer.

At this point getting some cap space is more significant than the return for Ghost or Jake. York should be on the roster to start the year which leaves Ghost or Hagg out. The UFA market is almost barren for a 2RD. At least we have a legitimate 1RD. Fletcher is going to have to be very creative.

 

[awaz]

At this point getting some cap space is more significant than the return for Ghost or Jake. York should be on the roster to start the year which leaves Ghost or Hagg out. The UFA market is almost barren for a 2RD. At least we have a legitimate 1RD. Fletcher is going to have to be very creative.

I bet there's a team out there with overpaid guys in different roles than Voracek's role with the Flyers; that would rather have an overpaid Voracek than those guys. It's not like Voracek is a total sink on the team, he's been on a 66 pt pace the past two years. He's just overpaid. And changing the mix of where that 'overpaid' comes from, can make a huge difference.

It's guys like Duchene who has 8M x 5 years left and was on a 30 point pace last season that are real problems to move.

With how many teams looking to remake their rosters, and all the activity out there, I'm really not concerned about Fletcher being able to move salary around. The guys they end up with may not be a home-run in terms of value/contract, but they can definitely improve. I'm still leery of Fletcher, but that Ellis trade on paper was a fantastic deal.

 

[mall3013]

At this point getting some cap space is more significant than the return for Ghost or Jake. York should be on the roster to start the year which leaves Ghost or Hagg out. The UFA market is almost barren for a 2RD. At least we have a legitimate 1RD. Fletcher is going to have to be very creative.

He should be calling Eagles GM Howie Roseman on being creative and finding loopholes in the salary cap. He's been doing it for years.

 

[chy1127]

I bet there's a team out there with overpaid guys in different roles than Voracek's role with the Flyers; that would rather have an overpaid Voracek than those guys. It's not like Voracek is a total sink on the team, he's been on a 66 pt pace the past two years. He's just overpaid. And changing the mix of where that 'overpaid' comes from, can make a huge difference.

It's guys like Duchene who has 8M x 5 years left and was on a 30 point pace last season that are real problems to move.

I still Jake is a very good player. The problem is that we need more. A decent 2RD makes the defense that much better as Braun can have a lesser role. Still need a 2G. Once Sanheim and Hart sign, we may have $1.5 mill for 2 spots. I think Ghost and Jake makes the most sense to create some space.

 

[awaz]

I still Jake is a very good player. The problem is that we need more. A decent 2RD makes the defense that much better as Braun can have a lesser role. Still need a 2G. Once Sanheim and Hart sign, we may have $1.5 mill for 2 spots. I think Ghost and Jake makes the most sense to create some space.

Yep, agreed. But I think it can be done. I look at someone like Holtby in Vancouver. They're committed to Demko as a starter, 4.3M is a lot to spend on a backup goalie. Vancouver was 25th in goals scored last year and 29th in CF%. Voracek is a 66pt guy and consistently puts in CF% around 60% at year's end. Yes, he's overpaid, but he could really help Vancouver on the ice. And at the same time, they move a contract they don't like.

Flyers get a backup goalie and 4M in cap space (plus 4.3M more next summer because Holtby only has 1 year left). Vancouver gets a 1RW that drives play better than anyone on their team last year.

There's some risk because Holtby hasn't been good the past couple years, but he's got a pedigree and the Flyers hopefully just need a decent backup.

Backup goalie solved, 4M to spend on a 2RD.

And that's just one example. I'm sure there are others that can make it work.

 

[awaz]

All speculation of course. But I think deals are out there for Fletcher if he's really motivated to move cap around.

 

[FlyerFinFan]

A lot to ask of York, but that could be OK. Doesn't seem to be Fletcher's preferred solution, but Sanheim/York and Ghost/Braun could work. Still need to find room for a real backup goalie somehow too though.

I think he finds a way to move Voracek to make room for a dman and a backup goalie. Go in to the season with Laughton/Frost as your 3C contenders.

Yep but who knows maybe York is ready I've seen it before? Either way I'd prefer a vet in there to help Sanheim thrive but it can be done as you mention with a Jake trade. They just need to take back a problem from someone else and there are lots of them around the league that the Flyers could make the best of. I don't mind the Holtby option as he can mentor Hart.

I'm also cool with Laughton/Frost as 3C that's the least of my worries. I just hope Frost pans out.

 

[mall3013]

All speculation of course. But I think deals are out there for Fletcher if he's really motivated to move cap around.

correct me if I'm wrong here, but teams are not allowed as of now to make deals unless it's with the Kracken, is this correct? And that will end tomorrow? I'm not sure if I read that correctly?

 

[FlyerFinFan]

correct me if I'm wrong here, but teams are not allowed as of now to make deals unless it's with the Kracken, is this correct? And that will end tomorrow? I'm not sure if I read that correctly?

I think so and its quite possible that the kraken or someone else may come sniffing around for guys like Jake but maybe at a reduced cap. Its a big chess game right now. They're plucking cheap guys knowing that they can also snag a few better players later at a discount. We'll see if it works for them.

 

[awaz]

I think so and its quite possible that the kraken or someone else may come sniffing around for guys like Jake but maybe at a reduced cap. Its a big chess game right now. They're plucking cheap guys knowing that they can also snag a few better players later at a discount. We'll see if it works for them.

Yep, til 1pm tomorrow the only deals allowed are with the Kraken.

And I agree with your 2nd point. I bet the Kraken make a handful of deals in the next week or so to take on bigger contracts from teams. They chose not to select them in the entry draft because they think they can get them with salary retained and/or other assets. Why take Jake now when you can get the Flyers to give up a 2nd round pick and retain 15% of his salary later. So the theory goes.

If I were Francis, I would not have gone quite to the extent he did to take advantage of that extra cap space. A little of that sure, but not every team is going to eat salary and give up assets like that. But who knows, maybe he played it right. Lots of teams desperate to make changes this summer.

 

[awaz]

Yep but who knows maybe York is ready I've seen it before? Either way I'd prefer a vet in there to help Sanheim thrive but it can be done as you mention with a Jake trade. They just need to take back a problem from someone else and there are lots of them around the league that the Flyers could make the best of. I don't mind the Holtby option as he can mentor Hart.

I'm also cool with Laughton/Frost as 3C that's the least of my worries. I just hope Frost pans out.

For sure. It'd be amazing if York just does pan out right away and can play top 4 minutes. And I definitely won't rule that out.

Laughton/Frost for 3C, same thing. I've been hoping for Frost for 3 years now it seems like! I'd like to add more to the forward group, but like you said, least of the worries ATM.

On Holtby, I think the mentoring Hart could actually be the fly in the ointment if he still wants a shot at a starter role. He's got a NMC and in Philly he'd be coming in as the backup for sure. But if he's open to it, I'd love to add his attitude and cup ring to the locker room.

 

[FlyerFinFan]

For sure. It'd be amazing if York just does pan out right away and can play top 4 minutes. And I definitely won't rule that out.

Laughton/Frost for 3C, same thing. I've been hoping for Frost for 3 years now it seems like! I'd like to add more to the forward group, but like you said, least of the worries ATM.

On Holtby, I think the mentoring Hart could actually be the fly in the ointment if he still wants a shot at a starter role. He's got a NMC and in Philly he'd be coming in as the backup for sure. But if he's open to it, I'd love to add his attitude and cup ring to the locker room.

Laughton can handle 3C but hopefully Frost pushes him either way they can spell one another as Laughton is flexible. I'm glad they kept him.

Holtby would be a good option if he's ok with it as you said. He could use this role to set up for another shot down the road. He's basically a backup in Van anyway. Will be interesting.