2024 Season Thread

[Sharkonabicycle]

Can you give me an example of a player in their prime who you think took less than top dollar to play for a contender?

IMO, the only unique situation for an in their prime player is that they either don't want to move or they want to move back home. I don't see teams like the Chiefs or Niners getting FAs on any sort of discount. Not only that but most title contenders have little or not cash for top dollar FAs. Lastly, the NFL is far too topsy turvy for a player to assume that any team not named the Chiefs will be a Super Bowl contender even 2 years from now.

That's not my point flyer. My point is, if faced with playing for a contender (and I named some with good cap room) and they are matching a lower rated team or one in potential rebuild, they're going with the winning team.

If the Vikings/Lions are offering $25M per (again throwing out random numbers) and Seattle is also throwing out $25M.... most players are going with the Vikings/Lions. So, Seattle has to pay more... and SURE, yes, WE AGREE, the player will sign with Seattle at that point (most likely)... but Seattle paid more then the market dictates.

 

[flyerhawk]

Hard to put faith that a QB will be the franchise QB your seeking, that the offense will revolve around, when he's never been that guy.

Tom Brady was never the center of the Michigan offense either. JJ lost one game in college as a starter.

I'm not really for or against JJ. I was just curious to see how far you are willing to go with your "get a franchise QB" belief.

 

[flyerhawk]

That's not my point flyer. My point is, if faced with playing for a contender (and I named some with good cap room) and they are matching a lower rated team or one in potential rebuild, they're going with the winning team.

If the Vikings/Lions are offering $25M per (again throwing out random numbers) and Seattle is also throwing out $25M.... most players are going with the Vikings/Lions. So, Seattle has to pay more... and SURE, yes, WE AGREE, the player will sign with Seattle at that point (most likely)... but Seattle paid more then the market dictates.

But that isn't how it works.

You remember Steve Hutchinson? Part of a great OL for a really good Seahawks team that could have won a Super Bowl? He took a poison pill contract to leave Seattle because he wanted the money.

Sure. If the Chiefs offer a player the exact same terms as we do that player might pick the Chiefs. But even a small increase in the offer is usually enough to get the deal done for the Hawks.

Players care about the money. Largely because they have short careers and need to maximize their earnings but also because they view the money as a measure of respect. .

So if the Vikings/Lions offer 25 million and we offer 26 million they will sign with us. But if the Raiders offer 28 million they will sign with the Raiders. It's pure capitalism.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Tom Brady was never the center of the Michigan offense either. JJ lost one game in college as a starter.

I'm not really for or against JJ. I was just curious to see how far you are willing to go with your "get a franchise QB" belief.

The exception that proves the rule. Besides Brady was drafted in round 6 in part for that reason.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

But that isn't how it works.

You remember Steve Hutchinson? Part of a great OL for a really good Seahawks team that could have won a Super Bowl? He took a poison pill contract to leave Seattle because he wanted the money.

Sure. If the Chiefs offer a player the exact same terms as we do that player might pick the Chiefs. But even a small increase in the offer is usually enough to get the deal done for the Hawks.

Players care about the money. Largely because they have short careers and need to maximize their earnings but also because they view the money as a measure of respect. .

So if the Vikings/Lions offer 25 million and we offer 26 million they will sign with us. But if the Raiders offer 28 million they will sign with the Raiders. It's pure capitalism.

Flyer I really don't know what to say at this point.

The Raiders are a horrible team. You literally just said if the Raiders offered $28M ($3M more than a contender) a player would sign with them. And the REASON the Raiders have to offer $28M is because they suck and will not be relevant.

So again, you prove my point. A competitor and up and coming team will make offers, but lesser teams with deficiencies have to outbid them because they are not a competitive team (or are struggling). A team like all the ones I mentioned is not overpaying because they don't have to. Their team is already good enough to attract attention from agents and their players. The only way crappier teams are attracting attention is with a higher contract value.. which goes to my whole point of overpayment.

I really don't know what else to say at this point.

 

[flyerhawk]

The exception that proves the rule. Besides Brady was drafted in round 6 in part for that reason.

Brady had a lot less playing time than McCarthy. He was basically a 1 year starter after a national champion team.

My point is that QBs work within their system. JJ was asked to limited things because the Michigan defense was the best in the country. But he was extremely efficient when asked to be...




Don't get me wrong. McCarthy is a lottery ticket. But if you REALLY believe that this team should do whatever it takes to get a potential franchise QB, then going for JJ makes sense.

Assuming that the Vikings are actually interested in trading him. Which they may not be.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

But if you REALLY believe that this team should do whatever it takes to get a potential franchise QB, then going for JJ makes sense.

Not if you feel he’s a game manager type.

 

[flyerhawk]

Flyer I really don't know what to say at this point.

The Raiders are a horrible team. You literally just said if the Raiders offered $28M ($3M more than a contender) a player would sign with them. And the REASON the Raiders have to offer $28M is because they suck and will not be relevant.

So again, you prove my point. A competitor and up and coming team will make offers, but lesser teams with deficiencies have to outbid them because they are not a competitive team (or are struggling). A team like all the ones I mentioned is not overpaying because they don't have to. Their team is already good enough to attract attention from agents and their players. The only way crappier teams are attracting attention is with a higher contract value.. which goes to my whole point of overpayment.

I really don't know what else to say at this point.

FFS. Replace the Raiders with the Chargers or the Redskins. It doesn't matter. My point was that a player will sign for a relatively small increase in value regardless of the team. In my example the Chiefs, the perennial SB team, is offering 25 million. The Raiders, a team that hasn't be a playoff team in forever, can offer a 7% increase in contract to get signed.

Saquon Barkley wanted to resign with the Giants but they low balled him. Had they offered him the same as the Eagles, and probably less, he would have stayed.

 

[flyerhawk]

Not if you feel he’s a game manager type.

So then it's about your view of the QBs themselves rather than taking big swings for a QB.

FTR, I have no idea what the term game manager even means these days.

 

[Screamin12th]

Vikings would be smart to resign Sam and let JJ grow and watch. He isn't "Cheap" but he also isnt costing them a ton as he is on his rookie contract. Best case for them with JJ was ALWAYS to let him sit and learn but they didnt feel they had that option. Now they do.

JJ's contract pays him ( rounded up ) 4mill (2024), 5 mill (2025), 6mill (2026) and 7 mill (2027). They shouldnt have to much problem carrying that. Yes they will have to Give Sam a new contract but if i was them i would start working on it right now. See if Sam is willing to stick around to buy JJ more time to grow and learn. One problem with that is Sams age, he will turn 28 in June so he is still young with 2 more full seasons of under 30 play. It's very common that QB's play well into their 30's now in the NFL so he very well might not take the deal but you should make every attempt to do so.

I feel bad for some of these QB's that get tossed around that have shown flashes of good play. Everyone expects them to be good from day one and thats just not how it works most of the time. Teams have forgotten how to "bring up" a young QB and instead throw them to the wolves from day one and either it works or it breaks the player. Then when they struggle they get labeled when some of these guys just need to LEARN! I feel like Daniel Jones is a QB that should have sat and learned. I Felt the same with Mayfield and Darnold oh and yes i felt that way about Drew lock. Fields was also thrown into action i think before he was ready.

No body really lets a QB learn anymore. 4 years in the fire and then casted off if they struggle lol.

 

[MrS]

Vikings would be smart to resign Sam and let JJ grow and watch. He isn't "Cheap" but he also isnt costing them a ton as he is on his rookie contract. Best case for them with JJ was ALWAYS to let him sit and learn but they didnt feel they had that option. Now they do.

JJ's contract pays him ( rounded up ) 4mill (2024), 5 mill (2025), 6mill (2026) and 7 mill (2027). They shouldnt have to much problem carrying that. Yes they will have to Give Sam a new contract but if i was them i would start working on it right now. See if Sam is willing to stick around to buy JJ more time to grow and learn. One problem with that is Sams age, he will turn 28 in June so he is still young with 2 more full seasons of under 30 play. It's very common that QB's play well into their 30's now in the NFL so he very well might not take the deal but you should make every attempt to do so.

I feel bad for some of these QB's that get tossed around that have shown flashes of good play. Everyone expects them to be good from day one and thats just not how it works most of the time. Teams have forgotten how to "bring up" a young QB and instead throw them to the wolves from day one and either it works or it breaks the player. Then when they struggle they get labeled when some of these guys just need to LEARN! I feel like Daniel Jones is a QB that should have sat and learned. I Felt the same with Mayfield and Darnold oh and yes i felt that way about Drew lock. Fields was also thrown into action i think before he was ready.

No body really lets a QB learn anymore. 4 years in the fire and then casted off if they struggle lol.

I agree, if im the vikings im keeping mccarthy and paying darnold. You never know what might happen, darnold might tear an acl in week 1.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

So then it's about your view of the QBs themselves rather than taking big swings for a QB.

FTR, I have no idea what the term game manager even means these days.

Think teams need a franchise type QB and that doesn't include the Jimmy G and JJ's of the world. QBs at the top of draft (when it's a decent to good QB class) are your best shot at finding one. So if team isn't bad enough for a early pick, then trading up is likely required. Yes that's expensive but it's your best shot at finding a franchise QB, sure in the pass one out of dozens picked later hits but man those are real bad odds.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

I agree, if im the vikings im keeping mccarthy and paying darnold. You never know what might happen, darnold might tear an acl in week 1.

I think the Vikings keep both also.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

FFS. Replace the Raiders with the Chargers or the Redskins. It doesn't matter. My point was that a player will sign for a relatively small increase in value regardless of the team. In my example the Chiefs, the perennial SB team, is offering 25 million. The Raiders, a team that hasn't be a playoff team in forever, can offer a 7% increase in contract to get signed.

Saquon Barkley wanted to resign with the Giants but they low balled him. Had they offered him the same as the Eagles, and probably less, he would have stayed.

I think we're saying the same thing flyer.

A winning organization with a lot of talent on the team that is a SBOWL contender is only willing to pay so much. Because they have a winning team. A team let the Raiders (in your example) has to pay more to get a good player on their roster because the team sucks.

You're talking about the player, I'm talking a bit more about the FO.

 

[jerseyhawksfan79]

Brady had a lot less playing time than McCarthy. He was basically a 1 year starter after a national champion team.

My point is that QBs work within their system. JJ was asked to limited things because the Michigan defense was the best in the country. But he was extremely efficient when asked to be...

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Don't get me wrong. McCarthy is a lottery ticket. But if you REALLY believe that this team should do whatever it takes to get a potential franchise QB, then going for JJ makes sense.

Assuming that the Vikings are actually interested in trading him. Which they may not be.

So what draft pick are you willing to give up for a QB who tore his meniscus plus had to have a second procedure to get the swelling down on that same injured knee?

 

[flyerhawk]

So what draft pick are you willing to give up for a QB who tore his meniscus plus had to have a second procedure to get the swelling down on that same injured knee?

I don't really care about the knee injury. Lots and lots of players, that require their knees to do a lot more, get knee surgery.

Colin Cowherd suggested a 2nd and a 4th for McCarthy. I think if the Seahawks could have offered a 2nd and a 4th for him before the season they would have done it. So I think that would be worth the trade.

Now I doubt that the Vikings would do that trade and I have no idea if the Vikings have interest in trading McCarthy. I would imagine it would require at least a 1st to get McCarthy.

It should be noted that the Vikings a 1 first and 2 5th round picks for next season. So they are in need of some draft capital. So it is possible that they would look to regain some draft capital for that draft and McCarthy would be a good way to get that done. So it is possible that they would prefer something like a 2nd, 4tn and 6th.

Of course there is risk involved in trading for McCarthy but the same is true with any QB prospect.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

I don't really care about the knee injury. Lots and lots of players, that require their knees to do a lot more, get knee surgery.

Colin Cowherd suggested a 2nd and a 4th for McCarthy. I think if the Seahawks could have offered a 2nd and a 4th for him before the season they would have done it. So I think that would be worth the trade.

Now I doubt that the Vikings would do that trade and I have no idea if the Vikings have interest in trading McCarthy. I would imagine it would require at least a 1st to get McCarthy.

It should be noted that the Vikings a 1 first and 2 5th round picks for next season. So they are in need of some draft capital. So it is possible that they would look to regain some draft capital for that draft and McCarthy would be a good way to get that done. So it is possible that they would prefer something like a 2nd, 4tn and 6th.

Of course there is risk involved in trading for McCarthy but the same is true with any QB prospect.

I'd be perfectly fine trading a 2nd and 4th for McCarthy. I thought he was a 2nd round prospect to begin with. That said, he needed to a) bulk up anyway - he was young as hell, and b) he was probably the most pro ready because he played for an NFL coach who had a pro style system in Michigan.

I can't imagine the Vikings will let him go for that, but if they are and going to resign Darnold, we should take that offer immediately and move on from Geno. If Mac gets his defense operational, you need a QB that wont turn the ball over and make sure to get the first down. McCarthy is the epitome of that. He'll prob. never be a 30+ TD QB, but he wont be a 10+ INT one either.

We're also projected to get 3 compensatory picks so that will help. I'd rather have McCarthy than Milroe (who walterfootball mocked to us in the 2nd round). Milroe is a complete bust/boom prospect, McCarthy should be serviceable and is a young replacement for Geno. Mind you I did NOT want McCarthy in the 1st round... he reminded me of Ponder 2.0. But for a 2nd rounder and a compensatory 4th, it's worth taking a chance.

 

[flyerhawk]

I'd be perfectly fine trading a 2nd and 4th for McCarthy. I thought he was a 2nd round prospect to begin with. That said, he needed to a) bulk up anyway - he was young as hell, and b) he was probably the most pro ready because he played for an NFL coach who had a pro style system in Michigan.

I can't imagine the Vikings will let him go for that, but if they are and going to resign Darnold, we should take that offer immediately and move on from Geno. If Mac gets his defense operational, you need a QB that wont turn the ball over and make sure to get the first down. McCarthy is the epitome of that. He'll prob. never be a 30+ TD QB, but he wont be a 10+ INT one either.

We're also projected to get 3 compensatory picks so that will help. I'd rather have McCarthy than Milroe (who walterfootball mocked to us in the 2nd round). Milroe is a complete bust/boom prospect, McCarthy should be serviceable and is a young replacement for Geno. Mind you I did NOT want McCarthy in the 1st round... he reminded me of Ponder 2.0. But for a 2nd rounder and a compensatory 4th, it's worth taking a chance.

I would imagine that Macdonald would have a pretty good feel for whether McCarthy is worth making a move for given he was at Michigan when McCarthy was.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

I would imagine that Macdonald would have a pretty good feel for whether McCarthy is worth making a move for given he was at Michigan when McCarthy was.

Agreed. That was the only attractive thing to me about McCarthy, was Mac knew him well.

Now that said, maybe Seattle couldn't negotiate a trade (course we traded for Howell) but the fact we didn't makes me think Mac doesn't want him. Or maybe Schneider just said "Nope. We're keeping Geno and trading for Howell." That obviously appeared to backfire lol.

 

[flyerhawk]

Agreed. That was the only attractive thing to me about McCarthy, was Mac knew him well.

Now that said, maybe Seattle couldn't negotiate a trade (course we traded for Howell) but the fact we didn't makes me think Mac doesn't want him. Or maybe Schneider just said "Nope. We're keeping Geno and trading for Howell." That obviously appeared to backfire lol.

It was a weird draft class. It was possible that McCarthy could have gone as high as 6 or fallen to them at 16. So where do you trade to?

Of course it is also possible that Mac and JS had no interest in any of the 2nd tier QBs. I do think they would have made a move for one of the top 3 if they could have.