2021-2022 Mariners offseason/free agency thread

[seahawksfan234]

I have zero knowledge on these international guys outside of what I read, but this Montes kid looks like an animal. He is big and young and I love to see we have finally dipped into the Cuban market for a hitter. I thought Bettencourt scared us off...lol.

Based off those rankings alone it looks like the Mariners did do a good job spreading around money and landing 3 of the top 50 guys.

 

[seahawksfan234]

We need a Tyler LF more than we need a Marco as a #3 SP so I call it a fail, but not a Varitek/Lowe fail by any means. Thebad part is Tyler became the exact player we all hoped he would which cannot be said with the Varitek/Lowe deal.

Fair enough.

Can't really argue with that as I mentioned, I can completely understand any argument against it. Objectively speaking, Tyler O'Neill contributes more value than Marco does, but the fact that the organization is stacked with outfielders + the fact that Marco is a reliable pitcher on a contract pays him substantially less than he contributes makes me feel the trade worked out for us for the most part.

I will say I do see Marco as more than just a #3 SP. I think he's a #3 on an ideal rotation, but I think he's a better pitcher than we all give him credit for. He's not flashy, but for whatever it's worth after he got over his early season struggles, Marco had a 2.83 ERA in his last 15 starts.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Are those your comment below each trade or are they from the article?

The comments below each trade scenario were those of Jim Bowden, the author of the article.

I will choose to view this question as a compliment, as the extent of my sports writing consists of the conversations we have on this board lol.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Number 2 made me laugh really hard. At the trade deadline I think I’d debate maybe Hancock straight up though. I have a feeling Kirby and Hancock both won’t be long term Mariners but I think they both need another at least half season in the minors for them to evaluate on which one.

Yeah no way we trade Julio for Bryan Reynolds. These were fan proposals that were responded to by the Athletic writer Jim Bowden.

The fan who submitted that trade proposal was subsequently eviscerated in the comment section after he said "I thought I'd try" lol.

 

[seahawksfan234]

I thought I was by myself but I agree with you completely. I think what O'Neil showed last year isnt sustainable. If he's a 5+ WAR and 145 WRC+ guy going forward then fine, ill admit im wrong but I dont see that sustaining. Especially given he still strikes out a lot. He just was never gonna work in Seattle with what Dipoto is trying to sell and the players he is bringing in.

We can also say Marco is only a #3 starter but I don't think that's the extent of what he has brought to this team and what he has meant to it. He's essentially hopefully one of the first pieces that produces a turn around for the franchise. He had a very bad first half of the year but rebounded well down the stretch.

I still have no issues with that trade,

It's funny you are the only person who agrees with me and I disagree with your reasoning for agreeing with me. I actually do believe what O'Neil did is sustainable.

The reason I thought the trade worked out for me is more the fact that Marco has pitched well, is cheap and the Mariners have a ton of outfielders already in the organization with a ton of potential.

I do think that Marco is a better pitcher than people give him credit for. I think the reason he gets the "only a #3 starter" label is because I think the narrative is that you have two elite fireball throwing pitchers at the top of the rotation, and the 3rd guy is just a reliable innings eater. There is an argument to be made that Marco fits that stereotype, but I think that neglects to recognize the fact that Marco had a 2.83 ERA his last 15 starts of 2021 - which you mentioned - and at his best is a low 3 ERA pitcher.

I actually see Marco as a realistic #2 in the rotation. That's not to say the Mariners shouldn't look to end another top of the rotation starter, but I really do believe Marco is a better pitcher than people give him credit for.

 

[wazzu31]

It's funny you are the only person who agrees with me and I disagree with your reasoning for agreeing with me. I actually do believe what O'Neil did is sustainable.

The reason I thought the trade worked out for me is more the fact that Marco has pitched well, is cheap and the Mariners have a ton of outfielders already in the organization with a ton of potential.

I do think that Marco is a better pitcher than people give him credit for. I think the reason he gets the "only a #3 starter" label is because I think the narrative is that you have two elite fireball throwing pitchers at the top of the rotation, and the 3rd guy is just a reliable innings eater. There is an argument to be made that Marco fits that stereotype, but I think that neglects to recognize the fact that Marco had a 2.83 ERA his last 15 starts of 2021 - which you mentioned - and at his best is a low 3 ERA pitcher.

I actually see Marco as a realistic #2 in the rotation. That's not to say the Mariners shouldn't look to end another top of the rotation starter, but I really do believe Marco is a better pitcher than people give him credit for.

The reason Marco gets the label number 3, at least for me, is if you are in the World Series you must have 2 better than him. It is the simple question of if you are in an elimination game is he the guy you want, answer for me is heck no, then the next question is would you be confident in game 1 of the next series if you toss your ace in that elimination game, which again is a no for me. It isn’t to slight Marco, he has had flashes and am in no way saying the you automatically chalk a L on the board if he is pitching in either scenario

 

[NWinAZ]

I think I'm with you. Idk why but for some reason when I think of Sonny Gray I think of the 2015 version of him. He has a 4.07 ERA from 2016 through today. Also doesn't help that he's 32.

Agreed.

Agreed again. Off the top of my head I can't think of any guys I'd trade Julio for who are realistically available. Is there anyone you would trade him for? Not a hypothetical, actually a serious question. I'm wondering if there is anyone who is available who we could justify parting ways with for Julio. His potential aside, I can't imagine that the Mariners would part with him because of the fact that if he comes close to meeting his potential, he has huge marketability

Great question. At his age and price (I hate using the word potential so I won't), I am not sure I would. Sometimes you just have to ride or die with a guy and I think he is that type. I would have dealt Kelenic before he came up because I just see more hype than immense talent. I think he has talent, just not what was hoped for. So I guess my answer is no I can't think of anyone I would deal him for.

I'd do the Bassitt deal. Perhaps I'm overlooking DeLoach and I have no strong feelings about him, but I just feel like in order to make a trade happen it makes sense to leverage the second tier of our outfield prospects.

I get DeLoach is replaceable, but I think he will hit. My other deal is I don't have much love for Bassitt. Maybe I am undervaluing him because he isn't a big strikeout pitcher. Now if we could do a mega deal with Bassitt and Chapman or those two and Olson then I am all for it.

If you ever want to read an Athletic article send me a message and I'll copy and paste it to you. This goes for everyone here. I actually highly recommend getting a subscription, it's the only news outlet I pay for because I feel the quality of journalism is that good.

Appreciate that.

 

[NWinAZ]

but the fact that the organization is stacked with outfielders

I guess this is where I jumped off. I read a lot of people saying this, but I can't remember the last young OF we brought up that contributed without some major flaw. Lewis but his flaw are his legs. Kelenic shows flashes, but inconsistent. Everybody else is wishful thinking at this point in my mind.

And Marco has been good, but he to me is a run of the mill 3rd starter. Probably why his price is good.

 

[seahawksfan234]

The reason Marco gets the label number 3, at least for me, is if you are in the World Series you must have 2 better than him. It is the simple question of if you are in an elimination game is he the guy you want, answer for me is heck no, then the next question is would you be confident in game 1 of the next series if you toss your ace in that elimination game, which again is a no for me. It isn’t to slight Marco, he has had flashes and am in no way saying the you automatically chalk a L on the board if he is pitching in either scenario

That's fair. Can't really disagree with that one.

Maybe we can agree that he's a high end #3 and a low end #2? Middle ground, right?

 

[seahawksfan234]

Agreed.


Great question. At his age and price (I hate using the word potential so I won't), I am not sure I would. Sometimes you just have to ride or die with a guy and I think he is that type. I would have dealt Kelenic before he came up because I just see more hype than immense talent. I think he has talent, just not what was hoped for. So I guess my answer is no I can't think of anyone I would deal him for.


I get DeLoach is replaceable, but I think he will hit. My other deal is I don't have much love for Bassitt. Maybe I am undervaluing him because he isn't a big strikeout pitcher. Now if we could do a mega deal with Bassitt and Chapman or those two and Olson then I am all for it.

Appreciate that.

Agreed regarding Julio. Kelenic I think I'm more willing to part with because he looked so overwhelmed at the plate. I know it's "potential" and they're "prospects," but you would expect a guy with Kelenic's acclaim to at a minimum play at a replacement level, but Kelenic was objectively worse than that. To contradict myself a bit, Kelenic's numbers the last month of the year gave reason for hope. I will say one of the things that concerns myself is that Kelenic went nuclear every time he struck out and I think he might be too smart for his own good and overthinks everything.

I get that a strikeout is the most favorable outcome from a pitcher, but in the end I don't think it really matters as long as the pitcher gets outs. Bassitt has an ERA of 3.23 the last 4 years. I don't know where that would rank amongst starting pitchers, but I have to assume it would be pretty high up there. I suppose my biggest reluctance to trading for Bassitt is his age.

I know there has been a lot of talk regarding a potential blockbuster trade with the Athletics but I just don't see it happening. I think the talk has just been a result of the Mariners needing a starting pitcher, third baseman and would happily take Matt Olsen. How often does an organization trade 3 high end players for prospects within the division they play in? I feel like we'd have to pay an additional premium to land those guys that I don't think many of us would be happy seeing.

 

[seahawksfan234]

I guess this is where I jumped off. I read a lot of people saying this, but I can't remember the last young OF we brought up that contributed without some major flaw. Lewis but his flaw are his legs. Kelenic shows flashes, but inconsistent. Everybody else is wishful thinking at this point in my mind.

And Marco has been good, but he to me is a run of the mill 3rd starter. Probably why his price is good.

I can't remember the last young player we brought up that contributed without some major flaw, so I see your point. I know how much you love the word potential, so I'll stop there lol.

We'll probably disagree on this, but in the end we're just splitting hairs as we always do, but as I said to @wazzu31 I think it's fair to say that Marco is a high end #3, and a low end #2.

Either way, that aside I do believe the team is better off adding another top of the rotation pitcher, which is something we'll agree on.

 

[SeattleCoug]

That's fair. Can't really disagree with that one.

Maybe we can agree that he's a high end #3 and a low end #2? Middle ground, right?

If Gilbert can take the next step this year, it will push Marco down to a 3 if that’s what matters.

 

[ulmax]

now if the team..spent...all..the money...the team made......the owners would still...be making..48 pct.at the gate.....so the team prob should..(spend all..its money..
cuz who will care...

real arbitrators....may make them...pay...for that lie.........

 

[ulmax]

but kelenic...is tyler Oniel,s..1st 3 year

Season	Team	LG	G	AB	R	H	TB	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	IBB	SO	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	GO/AO
2018	STL	NL	61	130	29	33	65	5	0	9	23	7	0	57	2	0	.254	.303	.500	.803	0.40
2019	STL	NL	60	141	18	37	58	6	0	5	16	10	0	53	1	0	.262	.311	.411	.722	0.59
2020	STL	NL	50	139	20	24	50	5	0	7	19	15	0	43	3	1	.173	.261	.360	.621	0.87

not over..141...at bats......not over...10 HRs...and was dropping..the 3rd year...

kelenics 1st year...........

Career Stats​

Season	Team	LG	G	AB	R	H	TB	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	IBB	SO	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	GO/AO
2021	SEA	AL	93	337	41	61	118	13	1	14	43	36	0	106	6	4	.181	.265	.350	.615	1.06
MLB Career	-	-	93	337	41	61	118	13	1	14	43	36	0	106	6	4	.181	.265	.350	.615	1.06

no..i say...kelenic..is gong to be better...................had 337..ay bats..which he needed...but 14 hrs...yeah..tyler did it in 150...yeah.but it took 3 years

 

[ulmax]

naa just let it be...........on the outfilders..............except if they can sign conforto...............

 

[wazzu31]

That's fair. Can't really disagree with that one.

Maybe we can agree that he's a high end #3 and a low end #2? Middle ground, right?

That is fair. Personally I would be comfortable if they went to a three man rotation and having him in it. Just IMO I don’t want him in any elimination game or opening of a series so that is where I came to the number 3. To his credit he has shown he has stretches of a lower tier number ace. Like I was saying me not liking the deal isn’t to shit on Marco.

 

[wazzu31]

Agreed regarding Julio. Kelenic I think I'm more willing to part with because he looked so overwhelmed at the plate. I know it's "potential" and they're "prospects," but you would expect a guy with Kelenic's acclaim to at a minimum play at a replacement level, but Kelenic was objectively worse than that. To contradict myself a bit, Kelenic's numbers the last month of the year gave reason for hope. I will say one of the things that concerns myself is that Kelenic went nuclear every time he struck out and I think he might be too smart for his own good and overthinks everything.

I get that a strikeout is the most favorable outcome from a pitcher, but in the end I don't think it really matters as long as the pitcher gets outs. Bassitt has an ERA of 3.23 the last 4 years. I don't know where that would rank amongst starting pitchers, but I have to assume it would be pretty high up there. I suppose my biggest reluctance to trading for Bassitt is his age.

I know there has been a lot of talk regarding a potential blockbuster trade with the Athletics but I just don't see it happening. I think the talk has just been a result of the Mariners needing a starting pitcher, third baseman and would happily take Matt Olsen. How often does an organization trade 3 high end players for prospects within the division they play in? I feel like we'd have to pay an additional premium to land those guys that I don't think many of us would be happy seeing.

Kelenic needs a vet like a Nelson Cruz or another guy who got mentored. This is why I wanted him to either break camp last year with them or get called up later in the year. He did need substantial amount of time learning to be a professional. I fully expect him to go full pre Ciara Russell Wilson with his off-season to improve his stance and going the other way. From reports Evan White is dismissing the launch angle crap so hopefully Kelenic follows suits.

 

[ulmax]

and yes..they need him..and as much..as they need story..or frazier as well...why...cuz that is what it takes..not that many players like conforto..
LHH...
lewis..is a bit like him...as far as from the plate...and CF..that is why...lewis was rookie of the year.....that is why..conforto..is an all star.....

if the line up went...

crawford....L/L...ss
story...or an other......2B/ss
frazier....DH.....L/L..or/2b../utility
4 france....1B
5haniger........RF...after a double..rhh...conforto...not to maney..LHHers..fit...the 6 hole...or 7 hole...conforto..and lewis both do...
6conforto......Lf./RF/DH
7lewis..........CF...lewis at 7,8..or 9 is all good....if ya want him in the run game...ya put him at #9...but his bat..fits at 6 or 7
8murphy.......catch
9toro.......3b

with kelenic off the bench...they may need ne more LHH...maybe...but then ya have to count on...cal..at catcher..and torrens..for RHH off the bench...
late in the game......none of those guys...have shown.....yet..torrens..has a bit...

RISP...is the deal..with any guys really....like..this..

and we can worrie about 3B..and catcher.....for me..catcher..more....
and they have guys on the way....as well......

 

[ulmax]

while we dont have a big sample size...hedid have his best year ...so far...

David Sheaffer #17​

Arkansas Travelers
Double-A Affiliate

• C
• B/T: R/R
• 6' 2"/170
• Age: 26

Season	Team	LG	Level	G	AB	R	H	TB	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	IBB	SO	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	GO/AO
2018	MAR	AZL	ROK	37	134	19	27	48	5	2	4	17	10	0	29	3	0	.201	.259	.358	.617	0.63
2019	4 teams	-	Minors	57	197	28	54	89	14	0	7	26	16	0	55	1	0	.274	.330	.452	.782	0.23
2021	3 teams	-	Minors	48	168	21	41	59	10	1	2	24	14	0	42	1	0	.244	.299	.351	.650	0.89
2021	EVE	NWL	A+	20	80	9	19	27	6	1	0	12	3	0	21	1	0	.238	.259	.338	.597	1.00
2021	ARK	TEX	AA	24	72	11	20	29	3	0	2	12	11	0	17	0	0	.278	.372	.403	.775	0.68
2021	TAC	PCL	AAA	4	16	1	2	3	1	0	0	0	0	0	4	0	0	.125	.125	.188	.313	1.50
Minors Career	-	-	Minors	142	499	68	122	196	29	3	13	67	40	0	126	5	0	.244	.301	.393	.694	0.57

ETA...some time...this year....if he can keep it going..........

 

[ulmax]

Josh Morgan #4​

Arkansas Travelers
Double-A Affiliate

• C
• B/T: R/R
• 5' 11"/185
• Age: 26

SummaryStatsAwards

• Joshua Brandon Morgan
• Status: Active
• Born: 11/16/1995 in Corona, CA
• Draft: 2014, Texas Rangers, Round: 3, Overall Pick: 95
• High School: Orange Lutheran, Orange, CA

while he did not have a huge year...either...i do think...he made improvment.....and if he keeps it going could be at tacoma...as welll...sometime this year

Charlie Welch #38​

ACL Mariners
Rookie Affiliate

• C
• B/T: R/R
• 6' 0"/205
• Age: 21

SummaryStats

• Charlton James Welch
• Status: Active
• Born: 2/08/2000 in Shawnee Mission, KS
• Draft: 2021, Seattle Mariners, Round: 19, Overall Pick: 564
• College: Arkansas

• Season	Team	LG	Level	G	AB	R	H	TB	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	IBB	SO	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	GO/AO
  2021	MRN	ACL	ROK	20	46	9	16	27	2	0	3	13	10	0	15	1	1	.348	.466	.587	1.053	0.14

they loved him at arkansas...mariners are going to love him as well....should be with ty duval..at modesto..