2016 NBA Off-Season Thread part 2

[trojanfan12]

we will have to agree to disagree. When your team leader and max player and a guy who sacrificed to help bring 2 titles to your team feels his own recourse is to call out the team in the media- than you have failed. Bosh felt like the team that was supposed to support and work with him was instead working against him. Whether he was justified in that feeling or not- for it to get where it did is the type of bottom line evidence that shows failure of the front office to handle the situation.

How the hell else were they supposed to handle it? Were they supposed tell their team doctors to clear him and risk him dying on the court? So that they could have "We told you so" engraved on his tombstone?

It's not unlike when a kid wants to do something dangerous and their parents tell them no. The kid is mad at the parents and blames them. Are the parents at fault because they wouldn't allow their kid to put themselves in danger? Have they "failed" in their role as parents because the kid is unhappy?

There is only one outcome that would make Bosh happy and that is getting cleared to play. It is also the only outcome that absolutely should not happen for the sake of his health. That is not a failure on the part of the Heat's front office. The failure is on Bosh for refusing to accept reality.

 

[trojanfan12]

A legit question for you, not trolling your Lakers right now. If Shaq didn't leave the Lakers because of Kobe why in Phil's book The Last Season: A Team in Search of a Soul did he talk about the troubles Shaq & Kobe had during their last year together? Just wondering. Of course you follow your Lakers a lot closer than I do.

There's no question that Shaq and Kobe had their issues. No one who was part of the Lakers at that time (including Shaq and Kobe) and no Lakers fans have ever denied that. However, even Shaq says that they likely could have worked things out to chase more titles.

The main issue between them was that you had a young superstar who was starting to come into his own and wanted to step in as team leader and an aging superstar who wasn't quite ready to relinquish that role. Also, Shaq was notoriously lazy and always came into training camp out of shape. We all know what Kobe's work ethic was like, so you can imagine how that irked Kobe. Shaq now says that he wishes he would have listened to Kobe.

Ironically, when Shaq showed up in Miami, the first thing he did (after guaranteeing a title) was to say that it was D-Wades team and he was just there to help. Had he taken a similar approach with Kobe, he may have retired a Laker.

Even with that, the reason Shaq left (according to Shaq himself) was because of money. Dr. Buss simply wasn't going to pay the kind of money that Shaq was demanding for an aging superstar whose skills were declining and who was too lazy to keep himself in shape in the off-season.

Considering how things worked out, Shaq didn't make a terrible decision (he got his money and 1 more title), but the Lakers made the better decision (turned things around pretty quickly and got 2 more titles).

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

There's no question that Shaq and Kobe had their issues. No one who was part of the Lakers at that time (including Shaq and Kobe) and no Lakers fans have ever denied that. However, even Shaq says that they likely could have worked things out to chase more titles.

The main issue between them was that you had a young superstar who was starting to come into his own and wanted to step in as team leader and an aging superstar who wasn't quite ready to relinquish that role. Also, Shaq was notoriously lazy and always came into training camp out of shape. We all know what Kobe's work ethic was like, so you can imagine how that irked Kobe. Shaq now says that he wishes he would have listened to Kobe.

Ironically, when Shaq showed up in Miami, the first thing he did (after guaranteeing a title) was to say that it was D-Wades team and he was just there to help. Had he taken a similar approach with Kobe, he may have retired a Laker.

Even with that, the reason Shaq left (according to Shaq himself) was because of money. Dr. Buss simply wasn't going to pay the kind of money that Shaq was demanding for an aging superstar whose skills were declining and who was too lazy to keep himself in shape in the off-season.

Considering how things worked out, Shaq didn't make a terrible decision (he got his money and 1 more title), but the Lakers made the better decision (turned things around pretty quickly and got 2 more titles).

After 2003, the Lakers were always going to favour Kobe over Shaq. Especially if you were to compare fitness, skill and work commitment.

I was devastated after Shaq was traded but looking back it was the right move.

 

[WiggyRuss]

There's no question that Shaq and Kobe had their issues. No one who was part of the Lakers at that time (including Shaq and Kobe) and no Lakers fans have ever denied that. However, even Shaq says that they likely could have worked things out to chase more titles.

The main issue between them was that you had a young superstar who was starting to come into his own and wanted to step in as team leader and an aging superstar who wasn't quite ready to relinquish that role. Also, Shaq was notoriously lazy and always came into training camp out of shape. We all know what Kobe's work ethic was like, so you can imagine how that irked Kobe. Shaq now says that he wishes he would have listened to Kobe.

Ironically, when Shaq showed up in Miami, the first thing he did (after guaranteeing a title) was to say that it was D-Wades team and he was just there to help. Had he taken a similar approach with Kobe, he may have retired a Laker.

Even with that, the reason Shaq left (according to Shaq himself) was because of money. Dr. Buss simply wasn't going to pay the kind of money that Shaq was demanding for an aging superstar whose skills were declining and who was too lazy to keep himself in shape in the off-season.

Considering how things worked out, Shaq didn't make a terrible decision (he got his money and 1 more title), but the Lakers made the better decision (turned things around pretty quickly and got 2 more titles).

see thats where i dont agree--- especially considering so many of the myriad of books and articles and everything i have read has expressed the regret of not being able to see Kobe and Shaq play together for a longer sustained period of time and see what happened. Its crazy to think what could have been possible.

I mean- Kobe was a ****-hair away from being dealt because the Lakers failed to find him any help for years. It did work out eventually once Gasol was brought in- but its not like their was some grand plan that was executed upon Shaq leaving.

 

[trojanfan12]

we will have to agree to disagree. When your team leader and max player and a guy who sacrificed to help bring 2 titles to your team feels his own recourse is to call out the team in the media- than you have failed. Bosh felt like the team that was supposed to support and work with him was instead working against him. Whether he was justified in that feeling or not- for it to get where it did is the type of bottom line evidence that shows failure of the front office to handle the situation.

Btw, I do understand the point you are trying to make, I just don't see how it reflects a failure by the Heat FO. Of course having players leave on less than good terms isn't a good look. But that doesn't mean that the FO was the reason for it. Sometimes players have demands that are unrealistic. The fact that the FO wouldn't give in to unreasonable demands doesn't mean they failed. In fact, not giving in to unreasonable demands would seem to be pretty much the exact opposite of failure.

As much as I understand why the Lakers paid Kobe what they did over the last 2 years, I can't help but wonder if their rebuild might be farther along if they had been willing to let him walk, rather than just throw the most money possible at him with no negotiation.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Btw, I do understand the point you are trying to make, I just don't see how it reflects a failure by the Heat FO. Of course having players leave on less than good terms isn't a good look. But that doesn't mean that the FO was the reason for it. Sometimes players have demands that are unrealistic. The fact that the FO wouldn't give in to unreasonable demands doesn't mean they failed. In fact, not giving in to unreasonable demands would seem to be pretty much the exact opposite of failure.

As much as I understand why the Lakers paid Kobe what they did over the last 2 years, I can't help but wonder if their rebuild might be farther along if they had been willing to let him walk, rather than just throw the most money possible at him with no negotiation.

I think to a certain extent the Kobe contract hurt the rebuild because it repelled high level free agents from coming- but as we saw this year- even without Kobe the high level free agents didnt come anyway.

With the Lakers- they took their shot at winning big with Dwight and Nash- and as soon as those 2 guys didnt work out- with all the picks and crap they gave up for those 2 guys- it was always going to be a long rebuild.

I think the Lakers front office should have acted more like the Cavs or Sixers or Thunder--- once they knew it was not gonna happen- trade everything not nailed down- and rent out your cap space for assets. Losing Howard and Gasol for nothing stunted the rebuild. The draft picks given up stunted the rebuild. In my mind- signing guys like Lou Williams and Brandon Bass stunted the rebuild. Id have preffere they save that cap space- and rent it out for assets- like they did with Lin to get the Nance Jr. pick. Why they didnt do that more makes no senses to me.

Kobe and his contact definitely didnt help the rebuild- but as we saw- even without him they didnt sign high level FA's. The other stuff is in my mind much more important and relevant as to why this Lakers rebuild is entering its 4th season and is likely going to last at least 2-3 more seasons before they are able to field a team that has a chance to win a playoff series.

 

[trojanfan12]

see thats where i dont agree--- especially considering so many of the myriad of books and articles and everything i have read has expressed the regret of not being able to see Kobe and Shaq play together for a longer sustained period of time and see what happened. Its crazy to think what could have been possible.

I mean- Kobe was a ****-hair away from being dealt because the Lakers failed to find him any help for years. It did work out eventually once Gasol was brought in- but its not like their was some grand plan that was executed upon Shaq leaving.

Considering what I posted came from Shaq himself, as well as Kobe and the Lakers FO. I'm going to go with that rather than your "myriad articles" written by folks who are/were speculating.

Kobe was never as close to being traded as was reported. The Lakers didn't fail to find him help "for years." The Lakers were out of the playoffs for exactly one year after Shaq left. Then they had 2 seasons of first round exits before returning to the finals. Kobe made some snarky tweets about Bynum in the off-season, but then he stfu when the season started and he saw how well Bynum was playing.

People forget that when the Gasol trade happened, Andrew Bynum was playing at an all-star level, but suffered his first knee injury. The Lakers were actually one of the better teams in the league when Bynum went down. They were fortunate to get Pau who fit in seamlessly.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Considering what I posted came from Shaq himself, as well as Kobe and the Lakers FO. I'm going to go with that rather than your "myriad articles" written by folks who are/were speculating.

Kobe was never as close to being traded as was reported. The Lakers didn't fail to find him help "for years." The Lakers were out of the playoffs for exactly one year after Shaq left. Then they had 2 seasons of first round exits before returning to the finals. Kobe made some snarky tweets about Bynum in the off-season, but then he stfu when the season started and he saw how well Bynum was playing.

People forget that when the Gasol trade happened, Andrew Bynum was playing at an all-star level, but suffered his first knee injury. The Lakers were actually one of the better teams in the league when Bynum went down. They were fortunate to get Pau who fit in seamlessly.

well just to be factual- Shaq left after the '03-0'4 season. The lakers missed the playoffs in '04-'05 when they won 34 games after winning 56 games with Shaq the year before. In '05-'06 they were the 7th seed with 45 wins and lost in the first round. In '06-'07 they won 42 games and- like you said- lost in the first round.

what i was saying- is that in retrospect- Shaq leaving took the Lakers from being a championship contender- to winning 0 playoffs series during three years of Kobe Bryant- a top 10 player of all time- prime- which is why he was almost dealt.

Imagine if like the Cavs dealt Kyrie ( i know a bad comp because of age) because he was disgruntled and didnt make the playoffs for 3 straight years right smack dab in the middle of Bron's prime. LeBron would be apocalyptic.

 

[trojanfan12]

I think to a certain extent the Kobe contract hurt the rebuild because it repelled high level free agents from coming- but as we saw this year- even without Kobe the high level free agents didnt come anyway.

With the Lakers- they took their shot at winning big with Dwight and Nash- and as soon as those 2 guys didnt work out- with all the picks and crap they gave up for those 2 guys- it was always going to be a long rebuild.

I think the Lakers front office should have acted more like the Cavs or Sixers or Thunder--- once they knew it was not gonna happen- trade everything not nailed down- and rent out your cap space for assets. Losing Howard and Gasol for nothing stunted the rebuild. The draft picks given up stunted the rebuild. In my mind- signing guys like Lou Williams and Brandon Bass stunted the rebuild. Id have preffere they save that cap space- and rent it out for assets- like they did with Lin to get the Nance Jr. pick. Why they didnt do that more makes no senses to me.

Kobe and his contact definitely didnt help the rebuild- but as we saw- even without him they didnt sign high level FA's. The other stuff is in my mind much more important and relevant as to why this Lakers rebuild is entering its 4th season and is likely going to last at least 2-3 more seasons before they are able to field a team that has a chance to win a playoff series.

Yes and no. I don't think it was the idea of playing with Kobe that turned off top FA's. The Lakers had enough cap space to add another top level guy. I think it was the uncertainty of his health and the fact that they wouldn't have the cap space to add more complimentary pieces to help if Kobe couldn't stay healthy (which we saw that he couldn't).

As for not getting FA's this past off-season, I think that had to do with the fact that while they do have some intriguing young talent, they aren't ready to win right now. It seems that today's top players are looking for "win now" situations. In a way, they are in a similar situation to what your Cavs were in for a couple of seasons before Lebron came back. Intriguing young talent, fun to watch, but not ready to win. Plus, a couple of coaching hires didn't help either.

If Russell, Ingram, etc. can show improvement over the next couple of seasons and Luke shows he can coach, then I think the Lakers will become much more attractive to top FA's.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Yes and no. I don't think it was the idea of playing with Kobe that turned off top FA's. The Lakers had enough cap space to add another top level guy. I think it was the uncertainty of his health and the fact that they wouldn't have the cap space to add more complimentary pieces to help if Kobe couldn't stay healthy (which we saw that he couldn't).

As for not getting FA's this past off-season, I think that had to do with the fact that while they do have some intriguing young talent, they aren't ready to win right now. It seems that today's top players are looking for "win now" situations. In a way, they are in a similar situation to what your Cavs were in for a couple of seasons before Lebron came back. Intriguing young talent, fun to watch, but not ready to win. Plus, a couple of coaching hires didn't help either.

If Russell, Ingram, etc. can show improvement over the next couple of seasons and Luke shows he can coach, then I think the Lakers will become much more attractive to top FA's.

getting Walton and Ingram is huge.

if they signed a retread head coach- and got unlucky in the lotto and had to give up their pick- id feel like they were in some deep deep shit and the light at the end of the tunnel would still be a long way away.

Getting Walton and Ingram- hopefully your coach and star of the future- now gives you the base to build from. I still hate that you owe 1st rounders to the Sixers and Magic- and have Deng and Mozgov eating up about 35M a year in cap space- but the two most important pieces of the puzzle are probably in place with Ingram and Walton.

 

[trojanfan12]

what i was saying- is that in retrospect- Shaq leaving took the Lakers from being a championship contender- to winning 0 playoffs series during three years of Kobe Bryant- a top 10 player of all time- prime- which is why he was almost dealt.

Again, he was never that close to being dealt. According to Mitch Kupchak the Lakers listened to offers. They always listen to all offers. However, there was never an offer made that came very close to enticing them to actually pull the trigger.

Plus, at that point, Dr. Buss was more likely to let Kobe go in FA and start a complete re-build than he was to take on a bunch role players who wouldn't be with the team in a couple of years like he did in trading Shaq.

 

[trojanfan12]

if they signed a retread head coach- and got unlucky in the lotto and had to give up their pick- id feel like they were in some deep deep shit and the light at the end of the tunnel would still be a long way away.

Oh, there'd still be light at the end of the tunnel. Problem is, it would be a train. lol

Getting Walton and Ingram- hopefully your coach and star of the future- now gives you the base to build from. I still hate that you owe 1st rounders to the Sixers and Magic- and have Deng and Mozgov eating up about 35M a year in cap space- but the two most important pieces of the puzzle are probably in place with Ingram and Walton.

Agree. I don't mind the Mozgov/Deng deals that much (although I wish there were team options on at least the final year of those deals). I think they are quality guys who, at the very least, should be able to teach the kids about being professional, preparing the right way, etc. Sometimes, a rebuilding team has to overpay some 2nd tier type FA's to show they are headed in the right direction.

Assuming the young guys keep developing, the Lakers should be set at PG, SG (?) and SF (as well as head coach) for the foreseeable future. I put the question mark at SG because I think that as good as Clarkson has become, he is the most likely to be moved if the Lakers can land a top level guy.

I think Randle will be a solid PF, but I'm not sure he'll be all star level. I do think he can be the starting PF on a championship caliber team (sort of a Rambis/AC Green type), but not a guy you look to lead a team to a title. I'm not buying into the Zubac hype just yet. I love the way he played in the summer league, but it's the summer league.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Again, he was never that close to being dealt. According to Mitch Kupchak the Lakers listened to offers. They always listen to all offers. However, there was never an offer made that came very close to enticing them to actually pull the trigger.

Plus, at that point, Dr. Buss was more likely to let Kobe go in FA and start a complete re-build than he was to take on a bunch role players who wouldn't be with the team in a couple of years like he did in trading Shaq.

i am notsure what you are talking about- but i am sure that their were significant talks with Chicago on Bryant- and it was reported the deal was DONE except Kobe didnt want Deng included because the Bulls would not have been competitive if they dealt him and the rest of the assets fo r Bryant. Kobe himseslf said that he vetoed a trade to the Pistons for Rip and Tayshuan. that is a gross mis-charecterization that Kobe was "not close" to being traded.

 

[trojanfan12]

i am notsure what you are talking about- but i am sure that their were significant talks with Chicago on Bryant- and it was reported the deal was DONE except Kobe didnt want Deng included because the Bulls would not have been competitive if they dealt him and the rest of the assets fo r Bryant. Kobe himseslf said that he vetoed a trade to the Pistons for Rip and Tayshuan. that is a gross mis-charecterization that Kobe was "not close" to being traded.

Again, I'm quoting those who were actually involved, not some article. Kobe was never as close to being traded as has been reported.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Again, I'm quoting those who were actually involved, not some article. Kobe was never as close to being traded as has been reported.

dude-- KOBE HIMSELF said he vetoed a trade to the Pistons that was done for Tayshaun and Rip.

 

[trojanfan12]

dude-- KOBE HIMSELF said he vetoed a trade to the Pistons that was done for Tayshaun and Rip.

And Mitch Kupchak and Dr. Buss both said he was never that close to being traded.

 

[WiggyRuss]

And Mitch Kupchak and Dr. Buss both said he was never that close to being traded.

The Lakers had a done deal sending Kobe Bryant to the Pistons- and Kobe vetoed the deal.

Do you dispute that?

 

[trojanfan12]

The Lakers had a done deal sending Kobe Bryant to the Pistons- and Kobe vetoed the deal.

Do you dispute that?

As I said, both Mitch and Dr. Buss said he was never that close to being traded. If that's not good enough for you, I don't know what else to tell you. It may well be that they told him of the offer and he said he didn't want to go. But according to them, there was never an offer that they would have agreed to.

 

[WiggyRuss]

As I said, both Mitch and Dr. Buss said he was never that close to being traded. If that's not good enough for you, I don't know what else to tell you. It may well be that they told him of the offer and he said he didn't want to go. But according to them, there was never an offer that they would have agreed to.

I am just saying exactly what Kobe Bryant himself said. That he vetoed a deal to the Pistons that was for Tayshaun and Rip Hamilton- mostly because if he got traded he wanted it to be to Chicago. That there was also a deal with Chicago that Kobe backed out of because he thought the team he would join would have been gutted with all the assets going to the Lakers from the Bulls.

if you want to say that was "never close to being traded" that is without a doubt your right to think so. I am more than content to let the facts speak for themselves.

 

[trojanfan12]

I am just saying exactly what Kobe Bryant himself said. That he vetoed a deal to the Pistons that was for Tayshaun and Rip Hamilton- mostly because if he got traded he wanted it to be to Chicago. That there was also a deal with Chicago that Kobe backed out of because he thought the team he would join would have been gutted with all the assets going to the Lakers from the Bulls.

if you want to say that was "never close to being traded" that is without a doubt your right to think so. I am more than content to let the facts speak for themselves.

We're probably getting hooked up on semantics.

For Kobe to formally veto a trade, there would have to be an actual acceptance of the trade on the Lakers part. According to Mitch and Dr. Buss, that never happened.

My guess is that the Pistons offer was the closest that anyone came to something that the Lakers would have considered, they told Kobe about the offer and he said no. Had he said okay, then the Lakers could have moved ahead and tried to get more.

If Kobe wants to call that vetoing the trade, that's fine. But according to Mitch and Dr. Buss there was never a true acceptance of any offer which is the only way to truly veto a trade.