2014 Pirates

[thedddd]

Here you go:
Pirates Notes: First Base, Furcal, Burnett, Trade, Jones: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com

So they are looking at Furcal? Is this to replace Barmes, truly i don't get this with the other needs unless they are dead set on having experience for backup middle infielders?

 

[thedddd]

People don't make moves in anticipation of other moves, or if they try to do that then they will inevitably get burned by it in the long run.

Decker for dickerson is interesting. I'm guessing that the pirates probably initiated the conversation with discussions about the relief pitcher to be perfectly honest. I know dickerson is the highest rated on prospect lists but the pirates never seemed to like him that much. They wouldn't have been playing dickerson in the outfield if they were confident that his bat would play at first. The relief pitcher seems like exactly the type of pitcher neil likes and neil always acquires a few guys like that. I'm guessing neil asked for the pitcher, the padres asked for power, we agreed to move dickerson but the difference in potential was too large so decker was thrown in to even it up. Decker profiles better as a backup OF than dickerson does.

Without a doubt but Decker gives them the option to deal one of the OF's or just let Snider go and hope he never plays another game in Pittsburgh.

Very true about Dickerson I forgot they put him in the OF and let Howard and Lambo play 1B. Matter of fact Dickerson didn't play 1B at all in Altoona.

 

[Illinest]

Tabata is the most likely to have a decent career but he's not likely to ever be a star. He's the kind of guy you pray that you can have as your fourth outfielder or put up with if you're forced to use him as your third.
Snider probably has the highest ceiling if he ever reaches his potential and it wouldn't surprise me at all if one or two years in his career are really good. He could easily pull a Moss.
Decker has one excellent skill that happens to be my favorite skill to have. I love guys who don't make outs. I think that the question with Decker is how he'll respond to pitchers who will force him to make contact. If Decker can protect the plate at the major league level then I don't care if his BA is Pedro-esque and his power is Tabata-esque, just as long as his OBP is Walker-esque at a minimum.

 

[Darkstone42]

Tabata is the most likely to have a decent career but he's not likely to ever be a star. He's the kind of guy you pray that you can have as your fourth outfielder or put up with if you're forced to use him as your third.
Snider probably has the highest ceiling if he ever reaches his potential and it wouldn't surprise me at all if one or two years in his career are really good. He could easily pull a Moss.
Decker has one excellent skill that happens to be my favorite skill to have. I love guys who don't make outs. I think that the question with Decker is how he'll respond to pitchers who will force him to make contact. If Decker can protect the plate at the major league level then I don't care if his BA is Pedro-esque and his power is Tabata-esque, just as long as his OBP is Walker-esque at a minimum.

If only we could combine the three into one player...

Tabata's contact skill, Decker's discipline, and Snider's power.

Get on the gene splicing, Neal!

 

[element1286]

Tabata is the most likely to have a decent career but he's not likely to ever be a star. He's the kind of guy you pray that you can have as your fourth outfielder or put up with if you're forced to use him as your third.
Snider probably has the highest ceiling if he ever reaches his potential and it wouldn't surprise me at all if one or two years in his career are really good. He could easily pull a Moss.
Decker has one excellent skill that happens to be my favorite skill to have. I love guys who don't make outs. I think that the question with Decker is how he'll respond to pitchers who will force him to make contact. If Decker can protect the plate at the major league level then I don't care if his BA is Pedro-esque and his power is Tabata-esque, just as long as his OBP is Walker-esque at a minimum.

Yeah, good point about Tabata, when healthy he's a really good 4th OF/platoon guy. And they have him signed to a reasonable deal for the forseeable future.

I've seen Decker compared to Matt Stairs (262/356/477 career line) as a hitter, which makes sense, although he has to prove he can hit likes Stairs in the majors of course.

 

[Darkstone42]

Yeah, good point about Tabata, when healthy he's a really good 4th OF/platoon guy. And they have him signed to a reasonable deal for the forseeable future.

I've seen Decker compared to Matt Stairs (262/356/477 career line) as a hitter, which makes sense, although he has to prove he can hit likes Stairs in the majors of course.

I wouldn't mind another Matt Stairs in the lineup. He was a solid hitter, and the more solid hitters we have in our lineup, the better.

 

[Illinest]

All the same we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves with Decker. There's a reason he was traded. He's a more interesting topic than talking about nothing but he's just another warm body in a big logjam of bench players. I'd trade every one of them for a single solid starter. We still need a real solution, particularly now that Neil has suggested that the Pirates "won't be able" to pay market price for a starting pitcher.

 

[element1286]

All the same we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves with Decker. There's a reason he was traded. He's a more interesting topic than talking about nothing but he's just another warm body in a big logjam of bench players. I'd trade every one of them for a single solid starter. We still need a real solution, particularly now that Neil has suggested that the Pirates "won't be able" to pay market price for a starting pitcher.

Yeah, this feels like a conversation from the dark days, when arguing over Moss, Milledge, Presley, Steve Pearce, Delwyn Young, etc.

 

[element1286]

The Jaff Decker, Travis Snider, Andrew Lambo, Gaby Sanchez, Jerry Sands and Jose Tabata Solution | FanGraphs Fantasy Baseball

 

[thedddd]

Hey look an ex-Pirate cast off traded for another ex-Pirate cast off.

Phillies Acquire Brad Lincoln: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com

This might be the most action so far with association to the Pirates all off season!

 

[thedddd]

Well with the most recent signings of Kuroda (1y 16 mil ) and Feldman ( 3y 30 mil) signings, not tendering Burnett is looking dumber all the time. They truly need to stop the lingering and get a deadline in place because if they don't move on when the time comes they will be out some additional SP's.

I guess in reality starting 2014 is way better than what they had starting last year but still addtional arms can only help.

 

[sychmd]

Well with the most recent signings of Kuroda (1y 16 mil ) and Feldman ( 3y 30 mil) signings, not tendering Burnett is looking dumber all the time. They truly need to stop the lingering and get a deadline in place because if they don't move on when the time comes they will be out some additional SP's.

I guess in reality starting 2014 is way better than what they had starting last year but still addtional arms can only help.

for the most part, we really didn't want any of the other ones for 2/3 the price they signed let alone 100%.
you have to take burnett at his word. retire or pirate.
he had the money and couldn't handle the pressure in NY.

make the sound deals not impulse buying for over-inflated non producers.

 

[Illinest]

So i hear napoli is going back to boston, and for a shorter term and many fewer dollars than i expected. This offseason...

 

[thedddd]

So i hear napoli is going back to boston, and for a shorter term and many fewer dollars than i expected. This offseason...

Yeah that was a shocker for the price. I bet though his demands anywhere else were way higher.

This offseason has been crazy with the activity well before the winter meetings.

 

[thedddd]

for the most part, we really didn't want any of the other ones for 2/3 the price they signed let alone 100%.
you have to take burnett at his word. retire or pirate.
he had the money and couldn't handle the pressure in NY.

make the sound deals not impulse buying for over-inflated non producers.

Never did I mention that they should sign those two for that price....That is the just the latest two examples of the super high crazy price tag this offseason.

So are you ok with the Pirates letting Burnett linger out there when any talent that is remaining could be gone before he decides. Not a good model for a front office to let a player dictate their moves and so far this offseason there is nothing the Pirates have done that is to prove that otherwise.

 

[TheBurgh88]

Looks like GI Jones is headed to Miami. Good guy but not worth that much at this point.

Ex-Pirate Jones close to signing with Marlins | TribLIVE

 

[thecrow124]

Never did I mention that they should sign those two for that price....That is the just the latest two examples of the super high crazy price tag this offseason.

So are you ok with the Pirates letting Burnett linger out there when any talent that is remaining could be gone before he decides. Not a good model for a front office to let a player dictate their moves and so far this offseason there is nothing the Pirates have done that is to prove that otherwise.

I am not so sure that Burnett is dictating any of the front offices moves to this point in the offseason. They were in on Johnson and he went to SD, because that is where he wanted to go. They were in on Napoli but not at what Huntington thought it would take sign him. Burnett was probably option 3-6 in their offseason plan, and now they are getting to the point where they are having serious discussions with him. I am not sure he will come back, but I am also not sure he is ready to retire.

As for the talent remaining, the ones I would really want are not in our price range, and the ones that are currently in our price range I don't necessarily want. So maybe our big move this offseason is signing James Loney, while not the move most of us want, it may be what we get.

 

[thedddd]

I am not so sure that Burnett is dictating any of the front offices moves to this point in the offseason. They were in on Johnson and he went to SD, because that is where he wanted to go. They were in on Napoli but not at what Huntington thought it would take sign him. Burnett was probably option 3-6 in their offseason plan, and now they are getting to the point where they are having serious discussions with him. I am not sure he will come back, but I am also not sure he is ready to retire.

As for the talent remaining, the ones I would really want are not in our price range, and the ones that are currently in our price range I don't necessarily want. So maybe our big move this offseason is signing James Loney, while not the move most of us want, it may be what we get.

Doubt Burnett would dictate a Johnson or Napoli signing those would have occurred no matter what. But the lack of a decision with a team notorious for not willing to spend seems to be stopping them from moving on. From all I read so far NH seems content going into the season with that they got, which is fine and better than the start of last year but not by much.

 

[sychmd]

burnett isn't holding up our movements.
as crow said, we were active for pitchers and for position players.

he has probably asked around for others, but doesn't want to give up the prospects teams are initially asking for so it is the negotiating game to see who gives in first.

he cut bait with some people (jones) but kept snider (didn't like this move but minimal downside as he is cheap and seems to be a good attitude on the team).

going into next year, we are way better than last year as we can look forward to:
cole a whole year
morton a whole year
liriano a whole year
wandy a whole year (was pretty durable before last year)
better 1B with sanchez and whoever (looney) they get.
better RF with tabata/lambo/snider and then polanco and the best of the 3 moving to 4th OF.
marte a whole year and a bit wiser with less pressure.
mercer the whole year and i like him in the 2 hole, unless we get enough pop and oloanco adjusts quickly to put polanco 2 or tabata or looney
better backup for martin
alvarez finally settling in after a more relaxed year, better production, and great postseason against great pitching.
cutch having a better year run production wise as he didn't do it consistently enough last year driving in runs.
walker is walker

last year, against RHP, we had barnes, snider, and jones for about half the year and it was 3 holes in our lineup with intermittent production from martin.
now we have much better lineup.

i am satisfied with our upgraded starters, relievers, position players, and bench.
my only concern is grilli's age and who closes if he falters as you hate to give up games you worked hard in for 8 innings and give it away in 3 pitches.
melancon looked a bit shocked in the 8th vs 9th, black is gone, wilson is great but occasionally he loses command (you usually know it in one batter for him as he is binary in performance).
not sure about welker as closer or watson or closer by committee,
but grilli is my only real concern and not sure if we have a real replacement for him.

 

[thedddd]

^
Corner bat the Pirates' focus as Winter Meetings approach | pirates.com: News

From the sounds of this quote below from NH (link above) it does seem as if Burnett is keeping their options to a minimun (I won't use holding them up since yeah that would be stupid on the pirates part!):

"People have written Jeff Locke off; we don't buy that. We feel he's going to be a very capable Major League starter next year. Wandy Rodriguez will be back. We have some depth there, with Taillon and Kingham on the horizon. The cupboard is not bare. But if we lose A..J, it will give us the opportunity to continue to explore the free-agent market."

Yeah you can read that last comment either way meaning they will continue but as we all know they are told to stay within a very specific budget with the other needs. Not knowing what Burnett plans are could come across as stopping them from moving on.

And as we both stated and agree upon they will be better vs the start of last season. I think their holes in the bullpen are bigger than they come across with Grilli's health and Melancon was exposed some late in the year. Another point of issue that doesn't seem to be brought up too often is the middle infield. Yeah Mercer and Walker are fine but who is going to back them up and fill-in long term due to chances of an injury or major slump?