2013-2014 Offseason Speculation

[Cbrower91]

Pavelski signed a 5 year deal no sir do like the length, no idea on money im guessing 5.5 per overpayment by a mil per season

 

[Slimpikins]

30 Mil, cap hit of 6 per. Oof, that was more than I wanted but he is versatile. I hope he remembers that 6M guys don't get to disappear for entire series in the playoffs.

 

[RaiderZar]

30 Mil, cap hit of 6 per. Oof, that was more than I wanted but he is versatile. I hope he remembers that 6M guys don't get to disappear for entire series in the playoffs.

After he remembers, he can remind Marleau.

 

[Cbrower91]

30 Mil, cap hit of 6 per. Oof, that was more than I wanted but he is versatile. I hope he remembers that 6M guys don't get to disappear for entire series in the playoffs.

That's the shitty Sam gagner contract coming into effect as well as all the other horrid deals this summer, grossly overpaid for a 3rd line center

 

[Cbrower91]

After he remembers, he can remind Marleau.

Compare the career playoff stats, pavelskis has literally had 6 great playoff games and that was the year they beat the kings in the first round and he went Mia after that

 

[RaiderZar]

Compare the career playoff stats, pavelskis has literally had 6 great playoff games and that was the year they beat the kings in the first round and he went Mia after that

I knew you wouldn't be too far behind Kork. That sounds like a lot of work. I'm just going off memory of all flack Patricia has received throughout the years for disappearing. It may not have been to extent of Little Joe, but then again, he just joined the $6M Club.

 

[Cbrower91]

I knew you wouldn't be too far behind Kork. That sounds like a lot of work. I'm just going off memory of all flack Patricia has received throughout the years for disappearing. It may not have been to extent of Little Joe, but then again, he just joined the $6M Club.

Marleau gets shit unless he's scoring 12 goals per series, it's really fucked up what the zealots put on the guy. The flamingo missed bunny series was bad and there was last year against St. Louis but even that series he was going good away from the puck. Pavelski does good for 3-4 games and is on the golf course, he just checks out and stops driving the lanes or goes to the net and he is typically a defensive liability due to lack of speed and size

 

[Cmon_WTF]

The Score: Thornton-Marleau-Boyle

Interesting article from The Score on the future of Thornton, Marleau, and Boyle with the Sharks.

 

[SJVP408]

The Score: Thornton-Marleau-Boyle

Interesting article from The Score on the future of Thornton, Marleau, and Boyle with the Sharks.

Looks like Doug wants to ride those three into the dirt. It wouldn't be a bad idea if the Sharks had three Couture-like players to build around as Patty, Jumbo, and Boyle become complimentary pieces. Too bad that is not the case. Looks like about 3 more years of finishing as a 5th seed and getting knocked out in round 2. Then when they retire, Doug is getting out of dodge. Shit prospect pool and a long rebuild is not attractive. There will be a team happy to make Doug their GM.

 

[Cbrower91]

Looks like Doug wants to ride those three into the dirt. It wouldn't be a bad idea if the Sharks had three Couture-like players to build around as Patty, Jumbo, and Boyle become complimentary pieces. Too bad that is not the case. Looks like about 3 more years of finishing as a 5th seed and getting knocked out in round 2. Then when they retire, Doug is getting out of dodge. Shit prospect pool and a long rebuild is not attractive. There will be a team happy to make Doug their GM.

I don't mind it because you will be hard pressed to replace any of those guys let alone all 3, and as much as I love Logan he can't carry a team on his own, the team is already in transition to Thornton, Boyle, and to a lesser extent marleau being secondary players and its working well. I'm interested to see how this seasons roster plays out

 

[SJVP408]

I don't mind it because you will be hard pressed to replace any of those guys let alone all 3, and as much as I love Logan he can't carry a team on his own, the team is already in transition to Thornton, Boyle, and to a lesser extent marleau being secondary players and its working well. I'm interested to see how this seasons roster plays out

True, there is no way to make a trade/signing that replaces any one of those three guys. You'd have to acquire future assets and build through the draft. But if those three will be retiring as Sharks, we get nothing when they retire. No draft picks, no prospects. Just a nice 'thanks for everything', then promote from the AHL which is currently lacking in top tier talent.

And I agree with Logan not being able to be 'the man'. Up till this point in his career, Jumbo has been the main factor when opposing coaches game plan against the Sharks. It remains to be seen if Couture can draw the main focus of defenses and still be a factor.

 

[sjrules99]

I don't mind it because you will be hard pressed to replace any of those guys let alone all 3, and as much as I love Logan he can't carry a team on his own, the team is already in transition to Thornton, Boyle, and to a lesser extent marleau being secondary players and its working well. I'm interested to see how this seasons roster plays out

How exactly is this happening? They have added virtually noone to the organization in the last couple years who make these guys anything but the go-to trio. Cooch is good, but not crosby/malkin/toews good. Pavs is solid, but not a top liner. Burns is solid too, but also not an elite player of the jumbo/boyle-in-their-prime level. The farm has next to nothing to replace these guys unless either Hertl becomes the best draft pick in sharks history or someone comes out of absolute nowhere to star, neither of which is likely.

Barring any r*pe trades or ridiculous draft luck, Dougie has only two choices. Ride his trip to death since he has no one even remotely close to take over their level of play without creating another hole (cooch might, but then who becomes cooch?) OR begin the youth movement now by sacrificng vets and taking a big risk of sucking for a couple years.

Personally, I think that if dougie was truly a skilled GM, he'd have gone with option 3: trade the vets for tons of picks/prospects, solid younger roster players, and then use the $$ to buy UFA's, even if overpaying. As I see it, this strategy is the only way to add great young talent into the organization signed well below UFA prices while still remaining competitive and allowing time for those young players to develop. These UFA signings above 33 should be 3 years or less since that should be the time it takes for the acquired picks/prospects/young players to develop (though under 30 can be 5 yrs like pavs).

For example if dougie traded boyle, jumbo, and patty for a package including 3 1st rounders (1 from each) plus several good young roster players or prospects (of the level of coyle, silfverberg, etc.) then the sharks would have the future roster into the system when you also add in the young D, hertl, mueller, nieto and the existing farm. They would also clear up 20.5M which they could use to add stalberg (3M), ribeiro (5.5), fillpula (5M), Ryder (3.5), and maybe boyes or brunner (2M ish). Move burns back to replace boyle on D. Im not sure if ryder, stalberg, fillpula, boyes, and ribeiro would be better than jumbo-patty but at the very least theyd be deaper and likely still competitive.

Then three years later they would suddenly have a wealth of 21-23 year olds with top end talent competing for playing time complimented by the young D in their primes, pavelski, burns, and cooch, as well as the finals couple years of the UFA's now in their early to mid 30's.

I think dougie's absolute avoidance of the UFA market, which makes a good deal of sense when looking at some of the deals but not all, has handcuffed him in a matter that in order to bring in talent today, he always has to sacrifice talent in the future. The the Draft and UFA market are the only ways to bring talent in without hurting the team today or in the future. Dougie has eliminated one of those routes entirely and limited the other with all the picks/prospects that he was dealt in the burns, boyle, rental players moves over the past few years.

 

[Stackem]

The Score: Thornton-Marleau-Boyle

Interesting article from The Score on the future of Thornton, Marleau, and Boyle with the Sharks.

Damn. Seriously bummed to read that. For the past 3 years, I have pretty much been looking forward 2013/14 as the potential start to a new chapter in Sharks history... the post Thornton/Marleau era. Had DW not thrown away draft picks this summer, and he also parlayed the aging trio of thronton / mearleu / boyle for prospects and picks, that would provide the needed foundation and start for the next generation sharks. Tell me how this 'refresh' strategy is gonna look in 3 years when they are all that much older and slower.

Also, agreed with everything rules said.

God I am bummed.

 

[Cbrower91]

How exactly is this happening? They have added virtually noone to the organization in the last couple years who make these guys anything but the go-to trio. Cooch is good, but not crosby/malkin/toews good. Pavs is solid, but not a top liner. Burns is solid too, but also not an elite player of the jumbo/boyle-in-their-prime level. The farm has next to nothing to replace these guys unless either Hertl becomes the best draft pick in sharks history or someone comes out of absolute nowhere to star, neither of which is likely.

Barring any r*pe trades or ridiculous draft luck, Dougie has only two choices. Ride his trip to death since he has no one even remotely close to take over their level of play without creating another hole (cooch might, but then who becomes cooch?) OR begin the youth movement now by sacrificng vets and taking a big risk of sucking for a couple years.

Personally, I think that if dougie was truly a skilled GM, he'd have gone with option 3: trade the vets for tons of picks/prospects, solid younger roster players, and then use the $$ to buy UFA's, even if overpaying. As I see it, this strategy is the only way to add great young talent into the organization signed well below UFA prices while still remaining competitive and allowing time for those young players to develop. These UFA signings above 33 should be 3 years or less since that should be the time it takes for the acquired picks/prospects/young players to develop (though under 30 can be 5 yrs like pavs).

For example if dougie traded boyle, jumbo, and patty for a package including 3 1st rounders (1 from each) plus several good young roster players or prospects (of the level of coyle, silfverberg, etc.) then the sharks would have the future roster into the system when you also add in the young D, hertl, mueller, nieto and the existing farm. They would also clear up 20.5M which they could use to add stalberg (3M), ribeiro (5.5), fillpula (5M), Ryder (3.5), and maybe boyes or brunner (2M ish). Move burns back to replace boyle on D. Im not sure if ryder, stalberg, fillpula, boyes, and ribeiro would be better than jumbo-patty but at the very least theyd be deaper and likely still competitive.

Then three years later they would suddenly have a wealth of 21-23 year olds with top end talent competing for playing time complimented by the young D in their primes, pavelski, burns, and cooch, as well as the finals couple years of the UFA's now in their early to mid 30's.

I think dougie's absolute avoidance of the UFA market, which makes a good deal of sense when looking at some of the deals but not all, has handcuffed him in a matter that in order to bring in talent today, he always has to sacrifice talent in the future. The the Draft and UFA market are the only ways to bring talent in without hurting the team today or in the future. Dougie has eliminated one of those routes entirely and limited the other with all the picks/prospects that he was dealt in the burns, boyle, rental players moves over the past few years.

You completely missed what i was saying lol, i was referring to the team transitioning from the Boyle,Thornton, Patty Era to the Couture,Pavelski, Burns Era. As in the current big 3 will begin to play a lesser role or atleast more complimentary role as oppossed to just the primary. Not every team gets as lucky as the oilers and pens did in the draft with #1 overall picks, look no further then the islanders prior to Tavares the Panthers, The jets so forth and so on. Chicago literally took 5 to 7 years of constant rebuilding, and that really started with Seabrook maybe 10 years ago.

You seem to think a #1 pick overall is a sure fire thing and its the furthest thing from the truth, its a gamble a huge one for a small market team that needs to draw attendance. The likely hood the sharks are going to get an even remotely decent return in a first round pick for any of those 3 is a shot in the dark. Thats why you stick with them.

As for free agents once again you've got that wrong, Wilson pursued Chara,Redden, and several other UFA's hard, San Jose isnt a preferred destination, because lets face it living in Cali aint cheap and living in the San Jose area is even more expensive. One possible perk is that with the current big 3 finishing out their careers here and staying loyal to the franchise and the franchise staying loyal to them it will help draw more marquee players here, a franchise's reputation is a big part of UFA signings.

Doug Wilson has tried very hard to make San Jose a very attractive destination and part of it as Cmon frequently eludes too has to do with how a franchise treats its players.

 

[sjrules99]

You completely missed what i was saying lol, i was referring to the team transitioning from the Boyle,Thornton, Patty Era to the Couture,Pavelski, Burns Era. As in the current big 3 will begin to play a lesser role or atleast more complimentary role as oppossed to just the primary. Not every team gets as lucky as the oilers and pens did in the draft with #1 overall picks, look no further then the islanders prior to Tavares the Panthers, The jets so forth and so on. Chicago literally took 5 to 7 years of constant rebuilding, and that really started with Seabrook maybe 10 years ago.

You seem to think a #1 pick overall is a sure fire thing and its the furthest thing from the truth, its a gamble a huge one for a small market team that needs to draw attendance. The likely hood the sharks are going to get an even remotely decent return in a first round pick for any of those 3 is a shot in the dark. Thats why you stick with them.

As for free agents once again you've got that wrong, Wilson pursued Chara,Redden, and several other UFA's hard, San Jose isnt a preferred destination, because lets face it living in Cali aint cheap and living in the San Jose area is even more expensive. One possible perk is that with the current big 3 finishing out their careers here and staying loyal to the franchise and the franchise staying loyal to them it will help draw more marquee players here, a franchise's reputation is a big part of UFA signings.

Doug Wilson has tried very hard to make San Jose a very attractive destination and part of it as Cmon frequently eludes too has to do with how a franchise treats its players.

I understood your post, the issue is that right now they have BOTH jumbo-patty-boyle AND cooch-pavelski-burns and its still not nearly enough as they havent really approached a cup with those 6 guys now on the team for two years. Hell they barely even made the PO's with those 6 guys let alone be a top seed and real contender. As the big 3 fade into the background, they need equally potent players coming up, but they just dont have 'em. That's what I was meaning...

You are dead right about the risk regarding top picks. They definitely dont always work. Where's wishart? Petrecki? Bernier? Kaspar? and several other 1st rounders that just didnt pan out. I agree that it's no guarantee of success even with those deals, but it's a bit of a numbers game. The more good picks you have, the more likely to land a solid farm. And, the only way to get lots of solid picks, other than sucking for years, is astute deals. Look at the Hawks this offseason... They traded several very good players who had higher salaries to land a bevy of picks. Why? because they know they are victim of thier own success and will quickly fade if they dont keep the farm going. It remains to be seen if that strategy pays off, but it is the only way good teams remain good (other than superstar drafting in the mid-late rounds like dats and zetts, but that's tough to hope for.

that's why I would rather take some risk on the picks for the chance of a cup a couple years down the line and pray that some UFA's could work out to keep the team competitive while the cupbaord is restocked.

BTW, I have also heard of all the UFA's dougie failed to land. BUT, I also hear the perennial rant against UFA's that dougie makes about how that is when the biggest mistakes are made, so personally, I dont think its an issue of players not wanting to come (aside from select situations like neidermeyer with his bro) but instead that dougie really doesnt philosophically believe in signing brand name free agents. He has never signed a single one that wasnt already in the organization (I think). You look at other top teams and they often have (Hossa campbell this year, scuderi, Mitchell for LA). The sharks have added only crappy guys like zues and burish for horribly inflated deals that have clearly not worked. I guess Nemo could be said to be good, but obviously dougie only looks for 4th line role depth, so I dont buy the notion that dougie is a real bidder and simply loses. I think he avoids the table...

 

[23sharks]

You completely missed what i was saying lol, i was referring to the team transitioning from the Boyle,Thornton, Patty Era to the Couture,Pavelski, Burns Era. As in the current big 3 will begin to play a lesser role or atleast more complimentary role as oppossed to just the primary. Not every team gets as lucky as the oilers and pens did in the draft with #1 overall picks, look no further then the islanders prior to Tavares the Panthers, The jets so forth and so on. Chicago literally took 5 to 7 years of constant rebuilding, and that really started with Seabrook maybe 10 years ago.

You seem to think a #1 pick overall is a sure fire thing and its the furthest thing from the truth, its a gamble a huge one for a small market team that needs to draw attendance. The likely hood the sharks are going to get an even remotely decent return in a first round pick for any of those 3 is a shot in the dark. Thats why you stick with them.

As for free agents once again you've got that wrong, Wilson pursued Chara,Redden, and several other UFA's hard, San Jose isnt a preferred destination, because lets face it living in Cali aint cheap and living in the San Jose area is even more expensive. One possible perk is that with the current big 3 finishing out their careers here and staying loyal to the franchise and the franchise staying loyal to them it will help draw more marquee players here, a franchise's reputation is a big part of UFA signings.

Doug Wilson has tried very hard to make San Jose a very attractive destination and part of it as Cmon frequently eludes too has to do with how a franchise treats its players.

Totally agree with all this.
The Sharks are still one of the top teams in the West. If Torres doesn't get suspended, I think they beat LA in that series, so then they are in the West Conf Finals vs Chicago.
If they get the same performance from the D and Niemi as they did last season, they will be in great shape. Not sure what the hell happened to their offense last season, but it needs to be better. Very interested to see how Hertl does, because that would give them a legit good 3 lines. Now I'm going to dream here for a min, and assume Havlat does come back half way thru the season, and here is what you can see:

Hertl-Joe-Burns
Raffi-Logan-Patty
Havlat-Pavs-Kennedy
Sheppard-Desi-Wingels

You can mix and match the top 9, but that would definitely be a very good top 9.

I don't mind the contract for Pavs either, because the cap is going to go up, and that is going to end up looking like a good deal.

If they do re-up Joe-Patty-Boyle, I bet Wilson will get a bit of a discount from them too, and I doubt he signs them to crazy lengths.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

Doug adds guys like Handzus at inflated prices because he has to pay a premium to get anyone to come to San Jose. The reason Wilson rants against free agency so much is because he knows he'd have to majorly over pay a player to even consider coming. There have been a number of players who have said San Jose has offered equal or more money but they chose somewhere else because San Jose was not a desirable destination for one reason or another. Vrbata, Jagr, Chara, Neidermayer, Redden, and Campbell just to name a few.

This is the reason the Sharks must get young NHL players back if they trade Thornton, Marleau, or Boyle because they won't get any help via free agency. The confirmed offer Toronto made for Thornton, which was Kadri or Gardiner, 1st in 2014, and a prospect (Believed to be Joe Colborne) is really the type of deal they need to look at if they go this direction.

 

[SJVP408]

Doug adds guys like Handzus at inflated prices because he has to pay a premium to get anyone to come to San Jose. The reason Wilson rants against free agency so much is because he knows he'd have to majorly over pay a player to even consider coming. There have been a number of players who have said San Jose has offered equal or more money but they chose somewhere else because San Jose was not a desirable destination for one reason or another. Vrbata, Jagr, Chara, Neidermayer, Redden, and Campbell just to name a few.

This is the reason the Sharks must get young NHL players back if they trade Thornton, Marleau, or Boyle because they won't get any help via free agency. The confirmed offer Toronto made for Thornton, which was Kadri or Gardiner, 1st in 2014, and a prospect (Believed to be Joe Colborne) is really the type of deal they need to look at if they go this direction.

Just to add to the difficulty of signing any notable UFAs, I think the last big name UFA to sign to the 'west coast' was Dan Hamhuis. It just so happens he comes from VAN so even then there was an underlying reason why the guy went west. I'm not sure how the behind the scenes aspect to drafting is, but Doug should take all the money that would be spent overpaying UFAs and dedicate it to the scouting department. Maybe hire Cmon onto the team. It's time to invest there so that they are prepared for the retiring of the senior trio.

I hope that Doug has plans to stay with the team for the long term. As stated in my previous post, I fear that Doug may now be in it for the short term. Ride the senior trio until they are no more, then leave town when Hertl, Nieto, and whoever else they draft are expected to take on prominent roles.

We've talked about it before, but the option 3 that rules was talking about is a very dangerous one with regards to the general fanbase. There are many Sharks fans that do not care about the future of the club, just what is going on now. These same fans were mad that Murray and Clowe were traded away for draft picks because "omg they hit people and are so tough". Imagine what would happen if any of the senior trio was traded. The trade better work or people will be upset and ticket sales would suffer. The 49ers resurgence and them coming to town (Santa Clara) means people may be spending their disposable income elsewhere since football and hockey season are at the same time. And don't forget the GSWarriors are young and trending up as well.

Personally, if the package mentioned by Cmon was a real possibility, I would consider it. If the Sharks can't do it with 2 elite forwards, then I'll take the approach of a solid top 9 with no superstar forwards (like BOS).

 

[23sharks]

Doug adds guys like Handzus at inflated prices because he has to pay a premium to get anyone to come to San Jose. The reason Wilson rants against free agency so much is because he knows he'd have to majorly over pay a player to even consider coming. There have been a number of players who have said San Jose has offered equal or more money but they chose somewhere else because San Jose was not a desirable destination for one reason or another. Vrbata, Jagr, Chara, Neidermayer, Redden, and Campbell just to name a few.

This is the reason the Sharks must get young NHL players back if they trade Thornton, Marleau, or Boyle because they won't get any help via free agency. The confirmed offer Toronto made for Thornton, which was Kadri or Gardiner, 1st in 2014, and a prospect (Believed to be Joe Colborne) is really the type of deal they need to look at if they go this direction.

And the thing is that when they do a get a guy here, they absolutely love it and don't want to leave, so you would hope that news would have made it's rounds to the other players.

 

[Cbrower91]

Doug adds guys like Handzus at inflated prices because he has to pay a premium to get anyone to come to San Jose. The reason Wilson rants against free agency so much is because he knows he'd have to majorly over pay a player to even consider coming. There have been a number of players who have said San Jose has offered equal or more money but they chose somewhere else because San Jose was not a desirable destination for one reason or another. Vrbata, Jagr, Chara, Neidermayer, Redden, and Campbell just to name a few.

This is the reason the Sharks must get young NHL players back if they trade Thornton, Marleau, or Boyle because they won't get any help via free agency. The confirmed offer Toronto made for Thornton, which was Kadri or Gardiner, 1st in 2014, and a prospect (Believed to be Joe Colborne) is really the type of deal they need to look at if they go this direction.

I know for a fact Vrbata, Neidermeyer, and Chara all publicly said the sharks offered them over what they signed for.

I dont know how i feel about that for an aging Thornton, I cant see the need for Gardiner, Colborne to much of a crap shoo(admittedly i know little nothing about him other then he is tall). Kadri seems like Steve Bernier maple leafs style for everything ive read about him. But your right its atleast worth kicking the tires over.