1996 Bulls and the 2016 GSW

[SJ76]

Don't get me wrong. He's the best ever. That's not light praise. That means he did things that no else ever did. That means he did things that others did but did it better.

I just think the legend of Michael can get carried away a little bit sometimes. Maybe that's not even a bad thing, I don't know.

I think we all expect perfection way too much these days. Sure there were a few games where MJ didn't light it up, but when he didn't Pipp usually did. I have all of those Bulls Finals on DVD too - what game did you watch? I love watching those DVDs.. Marv with the comb-over, the Czar! Hell Marv was beating hookers before he was going on TV to call the game.

And don't forget about Tony Kukoc on that '96 team. It wasn't like Kerr was the only one who could shoot. Not to mention, Jordan was 6-0 in the Finals... The man was an assassin when it came to "big time" or clutch shots.

 

[SJ76]

You probably didn't read the thread. I didn't say a zone against him. I said Zone principles allow for different defensive looks you can throw at him that weren't available back then because of the illegal defense rules.

I spoke on this at length, but the gist of what I said is this:

1) Jordan is unstoppable
2) No more illegal defense means that additional defenders can hedge without committing to a double team.
3) Defense schemes are much more flexible under today's NBA rules.
4) Only way to slow down the greatest player off all time is to throw different looks at him.

At no point did I ever say a Zone Defense could stop Jordan. Zone Principles is completely different in terminology and purpose.

I agree that throwing different looks at teams will confuse even the best players.
I also agree that Jordan was unstoppable.

But really, hardly anyone even plays a zone in today's game. If they did, you would see it against Lebron a lot more.

Interesting tho... what if you play a Box in 1 on Steph/GSW? Put your quickest guy on him?
But it's almost like teams know they can play a zone in the NBA, but don't.. I guess because these are big boy shooters and if you zone any team with shooters, you're gonna get killed.

Plus if you Zone the Bulls, Pippen gets to run the baseline and slash
Plus Rodman has a field day on the boards

 

[SJ76]

Quick ball movement
penetrating gaps and making defenders commit
A slasher in the paint
A pesky big man/rebounder that finds gaps underneath the basket


ALL are zone killers

 

[CitySushi]

I agree that throwing different looks at teams will confuse even the best players.
I also agree that Jordan was unstoppable.

But really, hardly anyone even plays a zone in today's game. If they did, you would see it against Lebron a lot more.

Interesting tho... what if you play a Box in 1 on Steph/GSW? Put your quickest guy on him?
But it's almost like teams know they can play a zone in the NBA, but don't.. I guess because these are big boy shooters and if you zone any team with shooters, you gonna get killed.

Plus if you Zone the Bulls, Pippen gets to run the baseline and slash
Plus Rodman has a field day on the boards

Again, you don't understand the difference between a strictly zone defense and incorporating zone principles.

An example of a zone defense is a 2-3 zone where the defenders are responsible for certain segments of the court and guard the nearest offensive player.

An example of a zone principle is allowing a center to hedge towards the middle of the court. Because there is no illegal defense anymore, a center can effectively double or fake a double team because he only has to be within a few feet of another offensive player and not occupy the paint for more than 3 seconds. In addition the zone principle allows the center to additionally guard a space, while simultaneous be responsible for guarding his individual player.

I'm not talking about the team playing a zone. I'm talking about playing strictly man to man defense, and incorporating zone principles. If you put Jordan in the block, you could have our center hedge towards his side. In Jordan's era, the Center would have to double immediately, otherwise an illegal defense would be called. In today's NBA the center can come over half-way, with the threat of the double, then retreat back.

There is a distinct difference between actually playing a zone, and playing man to man, with some zone principles included.

 

[LAD]

Quick ball movement
penetrating gaps and making defenders commit
A slasher in the paint
A pesky big man/rebounder that finds gaps underneath the basket


ALL are zone killers

I mean those are all the things this Warrior team has been doing. Although I think they could get better with rebounding. If they had a Rodman down low with them other teams could forget it. Not only would they be shooting lights out but they'd also be getting 75% of their rebounds on missed shots?? Goodness.

 

[SJ76]

Again, you don't understand the difference between a strictly zone defense and incorporating zone principles.

An example of a zone defense is a 2-3 zone where the defenders are responsible for certain segments of the court and guard the nearest offensive player.

An example of a zone principle is allowing a center to hedge towards the middle of the court. Because there is no illegal defense anymore, a center can effectively double or fake a double team because he only has to be within a few feet of another offensive player and not occupy the paint for more than 3 seconds. In addition the zone principle allows the center to additionally guard a space, while simultaneous be responsible for guarding his individual player.

I'm not talking about the team playing a zone. I'm talking about playing strictly man to man defense, and incorporating zone principles. If you put Jordan in the block, you could have our center hedge towards his side. In Jordan's era, the Center would have to double immediately, otherwise an illegal defense would be called. In today's NBA the center can come over half-way, with the threat of the double, then retreat back.

There is a distinct difference between actually playing a zone, and playing man to man, with some zone principles included.

Didn't say anything about your zone principles.. But I get. It's a flex zone.

A "zone principle" defense ain't doing shit against MJ and the Bulls man. Jordan ain't going on the block unless Starks or Curry or someone his size or smaller is on him. He's a pretty smart player. If the center comes over, he's kickin it out or finding the open man.

You are trying to pin him down. Ain't gonna happen unless you have the entire Pistons D hammering him and even that didn't work anymore.

 

[gordontrue]

I think we all expect perfection way too much these days. Sure there were a few games where MJ didn't light it up, but when he didn't Pipp usually did. I have all of those Bulls Finals on DVD too - what game did you watch? I love watching those DVDs.. Marv with the comb-over, the Czar! Hell Marv was beating hookers before he was going on TV to call the game.

And don't forget about Tony Kukoc on that '96 team. It wasn't like Kerr was the only one who could shoot. Not to mention, Jordan was 6-0 in the Finals... The man was an assassin when it came to "big time" or clutch shots.

Haha, yeah. I've watched them all. The shrug game, the flu game, and the final shot over the Jazz are some of my favorites.

The funny thing watching those games is seeing some of the commercials. Some of the games have the commercials edited out, but the ones that don't are fun.

 

[CitySushi]

Didn't say anything about your zone principles.. But I get. It's a flex zone.

A "zone principle" defense ain't doing shit against MJ and the Bulls man. Jordan ain't going on the block unless Starks or Curry or someone his size or smaller is on him. He's a pretty smart player. If the center comes over, he's kickin it out or finding the open man.

You are trying to pin him down. Ain't gonna happen unless you have the entire Pistons D hammering him and even that didn't work anymore.

Ok, nothing working ever against Jordan. Got it.

 

[SJ76]

Ok, nothing working ever against Jordan. Got it.

Dude go back to your earlier quote:

1) Jordan was unstoppable


But the new "Zone principle" D would have been the answer??

 

[SJ76]

Not to mention if Jordan got doubled, which he did...

His fade away was cash money and was also unstoppable. This is what made him unstoppable. You couldn't defend it. See Clyde tryin below

 

[CitySushi]

Dude go back to your earlier quote:

1) Jordan was unstoppable


But the new "Zone principle" D would have been the answer??

I also said in an earlier post that you can't contain the greatest player of all time. All you can do is try to throw different looks at him to challenge him. With no more illegal defense, there's more flexibility to throw different defensive looks at him than there were during his era. This is a fact.

All you've done is just state the equivalent of "Jordan is god, he would dominate." Well ok, but you failing to acknowledge any sheer basketball strategy or implementation of things different in today's NBA shows that no opinion other than an agreement with you would be right to you.

 

[CitySushi]

Also I never said I had a solution for Jordan. Everyone is taking such a hard line on my posts like I'm stating as fact that the Warriors have a defense that could slow him down. That's simply not the case.

I provided a perspective and backed it up with actual strategic implementation and it's been met with nothing but resistance with little regard to any actual basketball knowledge.

 

[SJ76]

I also said in an earlier post that you can't contain the greatest player of all time. All you can do is try to throw different looks at him to challenge him. With no more illegal defense, there's more flexibility to throw different defensive looks at him than there were during his era. This is a fact.

All you've done is just state the equivalent of "Jordan is god, he would dominate." Well ok, but you failing to acknowledge any sheer basketball strategy or implementation of things different in today's NBA shows that no opinion other than an agreement with you would be right to you.

I don't need to "state" how good Jordan was, you just agreed with entire thread that he was unstoppable. You are all over the map. It's not my opinion the man played in a very physical league compared to today's finesse game and was still 6-0 in the Finals.

Those are all facts my man. Not sure what else you can compare and your "soft flex zone". Jordan played in a more difficult style of bball and in a NBA that was better top to bottom than today's NBA.

 

[CitySushi]

I don't need to "state" how good Jordan was, you just agreed with entire thread that he was unstoppable. You are all over the map. It's not my opinion the man played in a very physical league compared to today's finesse game and was still 6-0 in the Finals.

Those are all facts my man. Not sure what else you can compare and your "soft flex zone". Jordan played in a more difficult style of bball and in a NBA that was better top to bottom than today's NBA.

Then why even start a thread to debate this? If you weren't even receptive to a response other than Jordan would always win, every time against everyone, ever, why ask for "Thoughts?".

I'm not all over the map. You've obviously picked and chosen what you wanted to read in my posts. I've given a premise that the Warriors could potentially win and laid out why. I didn't say "Jordan sucks".

Get over your fanboy-dom of Jordan. He's the greatest of all time. There's no debating that. You don't need to keep trying to validate that.

 

[SJ76]

Then why even start a thread to debate this? If you weren't even receptive to a response other than Jordan would always win, every time against everyone, ever, why ask for "Thoughts?".

I'm not all over the map. You've obviously picked and chosen what you wanted to read in my posts. I've given a premise that the Warriors could potentially win and laid out why. I didn't say "Jordan sucks".

Get over your fanboy-dom of Jordan. He's the greatest of all time. There's no debating that. You don't need to keep trying to validate that.

I don't have to validate it. I'm just laughing at the broadcaster that said GSW was better. This was a hypothetical for discussion and butthurt.

I'm not butt-hurt

 

[CitySushi]

I don't have to validate it. I'm just laughing at the broadcaster that said GSW was better. This was a hypothetical for discussion and butthurt.

I'm not butt-hurt

Anyone stating that the Warriors could beat the Bulls as fact doesn't know what they're talking about.

The rules changes and dynamics of the game make it hard to judge different eras. Not to mention it's impossible anyways.

I said in one of my original posts if the Warriors and Bulls played, using the Jordan era rules, the Bulls would win easily, likely in 5.

If played by modern rules, I thought it would be interesting, with a possibility of the Warriors being able to win.

That's all.

 

[SJ76]

Anyone stating that the Warriors could beat the Bulls as fact doesn't know what they're talking about.

The rules changes and dynamics of the game make it hard to judge different eras. Not to mention it's impossible anyways.

I said in one of my original posts if the Warriors and Bulls played, using the Jordan era rules, the Bulls would win easily, likely in 5.

If played by modern rules, I thought it would be interesting, with a possibility of the Warriors being able to win.

That's all.

 

[LAD]

Also I never said I had a solution for Jordan. Everyone is taking such a hard line on my posts like I'm stating as fact that the Warriors have a defense that could slow him down. That's simply not the case.

I provided a perspective and backed it up with actual strategic implementation and it's been met with nothing but resistance with little regard to any actual basketball knowledge.

Sounds like what coaches go through every night when trying to figure out how to "slow down" opposing great players.

 

[Shanemansj13]

And I would even go a step further and say with the defense from those days LBJ isn't the stud he is now.

You could say the same thing about most players on offense, especially shooters, like Steph. Defensively, it would actually help Lebron bc of his physicality, especially in his younger days. Lockdown defender. Kawhi Leonard with a hand check would be unfair, it already is pretty unfair.

 

[tlance]

Again, you don't understand the difference between a strictly zone defense and incorporating zone principles.

An example of a zone defense is a 2-3 zone where the defenders are responsible for certain segments of the court and guard the nearest offensive player.

An example of a zone principle is allowing a center to hedge towards the middle of the court. Because there is no illegal defense anymore, a center can effectively double or fake a double team because he only has to be within a few feet of another offensive player and not occupy the paint for more than 3 seconds. In addition the zone principle allows the center to additionally guard a space, while simultaneous be responsible for guarding his individual player.

I'm not talking about the team playing a zone. I'm talking about playing strictly man to man defense, and incorporating zone principles. If you put Jordan in the block, you could have our center hedge towards his side. In Jordan's era, the Center would have to double immediately, otherwise an illegal defense would be called. In today's NBA the center can come over half-way, with the threat of the double, then retreat back.

There is a distinct difference between actually playing a zone, and playing man to man, with some zone principles included.

This guy knows basketball. That is all.