Analyzing Jack Z's trades

[cezero]

Imo it is important to remember that in grading jack it should be just as much about the farm he has built as the trades he has made which brings him up 1 full mark in my eyes

Seager
Franklin

That's all from the farm that Jack has built that has seemed to work out offensively. And Franklin is pretty much where Ackley was at the same points in their first seasons in the majors.

We don't know enough about Miller or Zunino to say they're busts or not, so don't start talking about them positively or negatively yet. Saunders? LOL. Smoak has been doing okay lately, but he's done this several times before going back into the nether regions of sub-mediocrity.

Everything else about the wonders of Z's farm is pie in the sky until we actually see how they perform at the MLB level.

 

[Baseballnut77]

Thats your opinion and you are entitled to it.....................................even if it is wrong

 

[cezero]

Thats your opinion and you are entitled to it.....................................even if it is wrong

They're facts, but you can choose to believe in magic instead.

Ignored.

 

[Baseballnut77]

By all means ignore and keep practicing please till you become perfect
smoak is not a prospect, he is a player brought in by trade and thrown right in and at 26 i believe is well beyond prospect status. And since saunders was drafted in 2004 and jack started in 2009 that means that your facts are in fact WRONG. Thank you have a nice day

 

[wazzu31]

Imo it is important to remember that in grading jack it should be just as much about the farm he has built as the trades he has made which brings him up 1 full mark in my eyes

No, he is not the director of scouting, not the assistant GM, not GM of name a Mariners minor league team. He is the general manager of the Seattle Mariners and his job is to put the best team on the field to win then listen to the people he hired to take of scouting, development etc.

Pat Gillick is considered one of the better GM's of all time and that neglected the farm system in every single one of his stops.

 

[wazzu31]

See I have always thought of the center fielder as a super athlete. Lots of speed, athletic, high avg. and good defense and occasionally you will get the hall of fame types like Griffey or Trout who has all that with the added bonus of power. Defensively I think of the CF'er as a player that, in a pinch, can play all outfield positions but not all corner outfielders can play center.

I guess I need to rephrase my stance, all around offense not just power. Speedsters like Wynn and Damon could get away with having great range and an arm like an old lady because they brought something on offense. Ackley's arm appears to be better than Wynn's, it's not just Griffey/Cameron either. I loved Alex Diaz out there in center as well.

 

[cezero]

If you're responding to me, I can't see it wazzu. Sorry, bro.

Anyway, I'm not in favor of canning Z or Wedge. While I'm skeptical of Z's trades and farm rebuild, I don't blame him for the club's problems, and will definitely give him props if his pieces all do manage to fall into place in the next few years.

The problem with this team is the president, CEO, and majority owner....the constants in the horror of the past decade.

 

[wazzu31]

If you're responding to me, I can't see it wazzu. Sorry, bro.

Anyway, I'm not in favor of canning Z or Wedge. While I'm skeptical of Z's trades and farm rebuild, I don't blame him for the club's problems, and will definitely give him props if his pieces all do manage to fall into place in the next few years.

The problem with this team is the president, CEO, and majority owner....the constants in the horror of the past decade.

I wasn't hence why I didn't quote your post.

Then who do you put the blame on? Howie and Chuck didn't make those moves (outside of Griffey) Who cares if he was given no money to win. Jack was an amazing scout, if anyone should be shielded from being fired it would be Wedge, at least he has tried to evolve the past few years.


Makes zero logical sense that you can dislike the management in charge yet support the people they hire. If you trust the people hire, then you must trust them. You can trust them and think they made a bad hire but not the otherway around. A CEO does not get fired because he made several horrible hires and has no business being CEO or president but his latest one was the savior for the company.

 

[seattlefan75]

I think both Wazzu and cezero are right.

listen Jack Z is no idiot he knows baseball. you can find all these old articles talking about how much potential Justin Smoak, Jesus Montero, and Dustin Ackley had. Smoak getting compared to mark texiera, montero's bat getting compared to Manny ramirez's bat and miguel cabreras also was ranked top 5 prospect when he was with the yankees. Dustin Ackley being scouted to have a bat that could avg 200 hits a season a solid #2 hitter. These were great moves but I put the blame on the coaching staff for not developing these players into the all stars they were suppose to become.

Granted I blame Z for not signing enough veterans on the team and taking away pressure from these young guys, last year it seems like they were just given the keys to the car, they had smoak and montero batting clean up and everything. Having a guy like morse and ibanez hitting hitting 3,4 and seager hitting 5 then letting these young guys hit lower in the order without any pressure would have been a better move. I believe manny machado was hitting like #6 when baltimore brought him up.

But Wazzu is correct in a sense that someone has to get the blame for the lack of success with the mariners. its been 4 years and the only reason where not in last place in the division is because the astros moved here. But both you guys are correct.

its a shame the mariners suck Im just young enough to remember when we won 116 games, I really took those years for granted

 

[wazzu31]

I think both Wazzu and cezero are right.

listen Jack Z is no idiot he knows baseball. you can find all these old articles talking about how much potential Justin Smoak, Jesus Montero, and Dustin Ackley had. Smoak getting compared to mark texiera, montero's bat getting compared to Manny ramirez's bat and miguel cabreras also was ranked top 5 prospect when he was with the yankees. Dustin Ackley being scouted to have a bat that could avg 200 hits a season a solid #2 hitter. These were great moves but I put the blame on the coaching staff for not developing these players into the all stars they were suppose to become.

Granted I blame Z for not signing enough veterans on the team and taking away pressure from these young guys, last year it seems like they were just given the keys to the car, they had smoak and montero batting clean up and everything. Having a guy like morse and ibanez hitting hitting 3,4 and seager hitting 5 then letting these young guys hit lower in the order without any pressure would have been a better move. I believe manny machado was hitting like #6 when baltimore brought him up.

But Wazzu is correct in a sense that someone has to get the blame for the lack of success with the mariners. its been 4 years and the only reason where not in last place in the division is because the astros moved here. But both you guys are correct.

its a shame the mariners suck Im just young enough to remember when we won 116 games, I really took those years for granted

I'm not saying Jack should be fired (though I do want him to be) I just think it is an idiotic stance of him keeping his job because he rebuilt the farm system. I do not like Howard or Chuck either and if that's the reason they hired Jack was to rebuild the farm system then they are even more ass clowns than I thought.

I can't figure it out and can't be all on Wedge or Jack, it's not the fences or the marine layer but it seems (outside of the last couple) highly touted prospects come up they don't do squat for the M's. But once they go somewhere else they shine. Which is why the Bedard deal (hindsight blows) I was not against it. What about Adam Jones gave any fan a glimpse of hope with his time with the M's? His base stealing his range? He tore the cover off the ball in Tacoma but got to the bigs, was a barely average hitter and a horrible outfielder.

 

[SeattleCoug]

Its almost comical how bad he has done on most of his trades.

Even a trade that was supposed to be a nothing for nothing (Thames for Delebar) has been disastrous. Although I guess who could have seen Delebar being on the All Star team.

 

[DunceKaep]

Bust?

Seager
Franklin

That's all from the farm that Jack has built that has seemed to work out offensively. And Franklin is pretty much where Ackley was at the same points in their first seasons in the majors.

We don't know enough about Miller or Zunino to say they're busts or not, so don't start talking about them positively or negatively yet. Saunders? LOL. Smoak has been doing okay lately, but he's done this several times before going back into the nether regions of sub-mediocrity.

Everything else about the wonders of Z's farm is pie in the sky until we actually see how they perform at the MLB level.

The problem with this quote is this part "We don't know enough about Miller or Zunino to says they're busts or not" Really. How about if they're STARS or not. What exactly have Miller and Zunino done to even suggest they might be "busts?" Positive or negative, sure, we don't know, but BUST?

 

[Baseballnut77]

thats the thing. jack has been here since 2009 so most of the players that people complain about have nothing to do with jack his farm has just begun to come up and the results will be told over the next couple of years. Trades are trades. You win some you lose some over time. But when you are a low or mid market team the farm tells your story. jacks story will be told then not now

 

[Tapey]

in another trade that turned out well for the M's, Eric Thames isnt even on the team anymore, and Steve Delabar is an All Star.

 

[Baseballnut77]

the reality here is this is a frustrated fanbase and thats where the knee-jerk reactions come from.Over the last 2 or 3 years over many outlets i have listened to these fans say what they think should be done. 40% have said we need to spend a ton of money on free agents, look back at our trips down those paths brings back memories of beltre figgins and bradley. another 40% have said trade the farm for top players. Problem is you are usually trading for players in the 28 to 32 range and at least half of all of those players go into steep decline..The final 20% are the fans that have patience and realize that building through the farm is the way to go. Is it full-proof? of course not but a quick look aroung the mlb gives you stories of the pirates the royals the rays and the indians who are rising or are already at the top. Anyone believing we can do things as the yankees angles and dodgers do things is smoking something pretty darn good . The way we are going is the way it needs to be done here. Get a grasp on that and things start to look alot better, heck even the beer starts to taste better lol

 

[cezero]

in another trade that turned out well for the M's, Eric Thames isnt even on the team anymore, and Steve Delabar is an All Star.

LOL

We got Ty Kelly for Thames.

In 46 PA, Kelly is batting .400 with 2 home runs.

In 46 PA is the key part.

Ty Kelly Minor League Statistics & History - Baseball-Reference.com

 

[wazzu31]

thats the thing. jack has been here since 2009 so most of the players that people complain about have nothing to do with jack his farm has just begun to come up and the results will be told over the next couple of years. Trades are trades. You win some you lose some over time. But when you are a low or mid market team the farm tells your story. jacks story will be told then not now

Just saying a low to mid market team just makes me cringe. The Seattle Mariners are nowhere near a small market team. The 12th largest market in the US with one of the wealthiest ownership groups in the big 3 sports does not make a franchise a low market team.

 

[Baseballnut77]

i agree with you wazzu but at the same time we have a payroll of around 80 million and sorry but this team will never have a 200 million let alone a 150 million dollar team which in itself makes it a mid to low market team. having said that it doesnt mean we cant knock off the big boys and i believe we will and soon

 

[cezero]

The problem with this quote is this part "We don't know enough about Miller or Zunino to says they're busts or not" Really. How about if they're STARS or not. What exactly have Miller and Zunino done to even suggest they might be "busts?" Positive or negative, sure, we don't know, but BUST?

We don't know enough about Miller or Zunino to say they're busts or not, so don't start talking about them positively or negatively yet.

Nothing I said here is a "problem." It's a fact.

 

[Logicallylethal]

If you could redo the Pineda and Montero trade...would you?

Not sure how Pineda's shoulder problems will affect his career moving forward...but this kid was so electric while he was with us. Imagine having a healthy Pineda in that rotation with Felix and Iwak and eventually Walker or Hultzen or Erasmo filling out the rest of the rotation

I do still have faith in Montero...I think Smoak is a good example of why we shouldn't give up on a player too early...Montero is still young...but what's more valuable...a dominant starting pitcher or a hitter that's most likely going to dh? I think when Montero came here as a catcher his value at that position was high but as a dh...I'd favor a healthy Pineda over Montero