Analyzing Jack Z's trades

[blstoker]

The trade should've got everyone in position of power fired on the spot, Jack for doing it, Howard and Chuck for allowing it to happen, any scout who was in Jack's ear saying ya, these guys have potential enough to justify it.

Fister hasn't "blossomed in Detroit" He was fucking blossoming and arguably the Mariners best pitcher over Felix. Not even hindsight, looking strictly at the time what the hell was he thinking? Fister was under team control for a minimum of 4 years. There was not one positive aspect about that trade nor was there anything down the road, unless god reached down and turned Wells and Martinez into all star caliber players, that could made it even a compatible trade.

I'm happy that Furbush went from a horrible reliever to an average reliever, but to say anything positive about that trade means you are Jack Z or someone in the Mariners organization trying to save face.

Not even close to being anyone in the organization, I just don't think it's a sky is falling move. I wish Fister were still here, he would easily have been a better option in our rotation than Harang, Bonderman or Maurer this year (or Millwood, Beaven or Noesi last year). That doesn't mean that the team got nothing. True, Furbush didn't pan out as a starter like the team hoped he would be, but he has been more than solid as the LH out of the pen.

I actually didn't like the trade at the time, and yes, it is clearly a lose when concidering how the players involved have performed, but it isn't like Furbush has been so bad that he shouldn't even be in the big leagues.

Also, if we're talking trades that we don't like, I don't like the Vargas trade. I'm sure to be in the minority with Morales batting .280 and 14 HRs, but with the problems the M's now have in the pitching staff, the offensive moves haven't produced enough to save a pitching staff that is allowing 0.5 more runs a game (the offense is scoring 0.1 more runs per game than last year). I'd much rather have Vargas than Saunders, or at least trade one of the before mentioned RHs for Vargas' LH.

 

[cezero]

Not even close to being anyone in the organization, I just don't think it's a sky is falling move. I wish Fister were still here, he would easily have been a better option in our rotation than Harang, Bonderman or Maurer this year (or Millwood, Beaven or Noesi last year). That doesn't mean that the team got nothing. True, Furbush didn't pan out as a starter like the team hoped he would be, but he has been more than solid as the LH out of the pen.

I actually didn't like the trade at the time, and yes, it is clearly a lose when concidering how the players involved have performed, but it isn't like Furbush has been so bad that he shouldn't even be in the big leagues.

Also, if we're talking trades that we don't like, I don't like the Vargas trade. I'm sure to be in the minority with Morales batting .280 and 14 HRs, but with the problems the M's now have in the pitching staff, the offensive moves haven't produced enough to save a pitching staff that is allowing 0.5 more runs a game (the offense is scoring 0.1 more runs per game than last year). I'd much rather have Vargas than Saunders, or at least trade one of the before mentioned RHs for Vargas' LH.

You are completely lost.

It's as bad as a troll for me. Ignored.

 

[cezero]

The trade should've got everyone in position of power fired on the spot, Jack for doing it, Howard and Chuck for allowing it to happen, any scout who was in Jack's ear saying ya, these guys have potential enough to justify it.

Fister hasn't "blossomed in Detroit" He was fucking blossoming and arguably the Mariners best pitcher over Felix. Not even hindsight, looking strictly at the time what the hell was he thinking? Fister was under team control for a minimum of 4 years. There was not one positive aspect about that trade nor was there anything down the road, unless god reached down and turned Wells and Martinez into all star caliber players, that could made it even a compatible trade.

I'm happy that Furbush went from a horrible reliever to an average reliever, but to say anything positive about that trade means you are Jack Z or someone in the Mariners organization trying to save face.

I agree.

But you're responding to somebody whose argument is that "hey, the bright side is that Furbush is still in the Majors."

The guy's finding absurd silver linings about Charlie Fucking Furbush, but is completely unhappy with the Vargas/Morale trade.

Cuckoo. Cuckoo.

 

[blstoker]

You are completely lost.

It's as bad as a troll for me. Ignored.

Moron.

 

[seahawksfan234]

You are completely lost.

It's as bad as a troll for me. Ignored.

Blstoker has and continues to be an excellent poster on CBS and here on SportsHoopla. I'm not sure what your problem is.

 

[Logicallylethal]

All star weekend needs to end already cause no baseball on tv is driving some of you guys crazy!

Here's how I see it...

Everyone here agrees that the Fister trade was a win for the Tigers and a lose for the Mariners

The one point of disagreement lies in how bad the trade really was. I personally think it was really bad regardless of how solid Furbush is as a reliever. A good starter is always way more valuable than a good reliever.

However, the point that some of you guys are trying to defend is that the trade wasn't an absolute nothing because we did get back a solid reliever after all. It doesn't make up for the trade in any way, but turns it from being a complete F grade to maybe a D or D- for Jack Z. Which once again...is still terrible and completely unacceptable for Jack.

 

[cezero]

Blstoker has and continues to be an excellent poster on CBS and here on SportsHoopla. I'm not sure what your problem is.

No problems anymore since I have it set up to where I can't see his posts anymore.

One of the joys of this board.

Most M's fans on here have been excellent so far, though, so no need to use it very often.

 

[wazzu31]

You are completely lost.

It's as bad as a troll for me. Ignored.

So exactly how do you actually engage in conversations if you ignore everyone who has a different opinion? I think it a retarded stance on finding a silver lining with the Fister deal but against the Vargas deal. But message boards or even in life you need different opinions than yours.

 

[cezero]

So exactly how do you actually engage in conversations if you ignore everyone who has a different opinion? I think it a retarded stance on finding a silver lining with the Fister deal but against the Vargas deal. But message boards or even in life you need different opinions than yours.

Easy. I engage with the 99% of posters on here who have proven that they can make good arguments even if I don't agree with them.

Move along. This should be a non-issue from now on. All fixed.

 

[Baseballnut77]

as you are learning quickly wazzu, cezero is just a troll who is all aboard the slam the mariners train.
he has nothing much to offer so dont even bother. just a head bobber

 

[broncosmitty]

Fister is fourth on his team in strikeouts, and has an ERA over 4. He's also 9 games UNDER .500 for his career. I don't get how certain posters on here only see a bad deal. But those posters also won't see those stats I just listed, so, oh well...

 

[blstoker]

Fister is fourth on his team in strikeouts, and has an ERA over 4. He's also 9 games UNDER .500 for his career. I don't get how certain posters on here only see a bad deal. But those posters also won't see those stats I just listed, so, oh well...

One of the issues is that he had a 3.33 ERA when traded in 2011. His record (3-12 I believe) was more from a lack of run support. If I remember correctly, his run support was the worst in the league at that point. I always felt that Casper Wells was really who the M's were targeting, since the 3rd outfield position was just absolutely dreadful. Wells never really panned out, but the front office was trying to do something to get some offense, especially since all 5 starters that year were pitching exceptionally. If they had traded someone else it wouldn't have been as big a deal to some, Maybe if it had been Blake Beavan for Casper Wells straight up (or some cash). I just don't think the deal get's done if it anyone but Fister, and the FO was feeling heat for an absolutely dreadful offense.

 

[blstoker]

So exactly how do you actually engage in conversations if you ignore everyone who has a different opinion? I think it a retarded stance on finding a silver lining with the Fister deal but against the Vargas deal. But message boards or even in life you need different opinions than yours.

I know my Vargas deal opinion is not the norm, so I also understand that it's not a popular stance. It's actually the first I've ever written about it.

The thing I don't understand about the atmosphere on SportsHoopla is the need for people to have trolls to even exist. The Seahawks board has had more troll conversations and accusations at times than actual sports talk.

I consider myself a very polite contributor, and even feel horrible if my comments come off wrong and someone takes it in a way that I didn't intend, yet my profile is visited more by moderators than anyone else, which I only assume means that I have had my posts reported (though I am not sure of that). It just seems at times that differing opinions is seen as trolling, and there is no way to have intelligent conversation when insist that differing opinions are retarded.

 

[cezero]

Fister is fourth on his team in strikeouts, and has an ERA over 4. He's also 9 games UNDER .500 for his career. I don't get how certain posters on here only see a bad deal. But those posters also won't see those stats I just listed, so, oh well...

Mikenbig, the reason his career record is low is because he was in Seattle, oftentimes giving up 2 runs or less in quality outings, and still get the L because he was pitching behind one of the worst offenses in history. It's happened there, too, but to a much lower extent. It's why real fans rank W/L records VERY low when talking about a pitcher.

In his first 16 of his first 21 starts in 2011, the Mariners scored 2 runs or less for him, resulting in a lot of losses. Even with that, his WAR was still near 3.

People who see a bad deal are people who understand baseball. It was a bad deal for Seattle. Nobody disputes it except for trolls from others teams and garden variety know-nothing fans.

It would be fun to see just how much, in addition to Furbush and Ruffiin, the Tigers would expect Seattle to part with for Fister.

Done dealing with mikenbig.

 

[cezero]

And which fans on here see the Fister deal as anything other than a bad deal?

Honestly. Mikenbig tried saying it was only "certain posters," so I'm curious who the other posters are on here who see it as anything but a bad deal.

 

[dude82]

You have to give up something to get something. The M's have needed offense, particularly in the outfield, for the longest time and have had an abundance of good pitching for several years now. Obviously this trade in particular wasn't a trade that anybody liked, but with the Mariners' shortage of good hitters and abundance of good pitchers, I think people would have been angrier if there had been no trade at all and Zduriencik had just sat on his hands instead of at least trying to improve the offense.

 

[wazzu31]

You have to give up something to get something. The M's have needed offense, particularly in the outfield, for the longest time and have had an abundance of good pitching for several years now. Obviously this trade in particular wasn't a trade that anybody liked, but with the Mariners' shortage of good hitters and abundance of good pitchers, I think people would have been angrier if there had been no trade at all and Zduriencik had just sat on his hands instead of at least trying to improve the offense.

I would've been fine with trading another starter, heck even Vargas. Fister was under team control and (regardless of record) was pitching great. Along with Jack keep preaching about patience and a youth movement, Foster was making less than Vargas. I'm fine with hearing opinions on the deal but until someone can actually make any rational sense on why it was Foster traded I will curse Jack for it.

 

[cezero]

Yep.

You'll find that most people were fine with the Vargas trade. He had a year left. So did Morales. The deal worked out well for both sides. This wasn't a controversial trade for people who know anything about baseball, and it still isn't.

The Fister trade was bad for Seattle. Period. It's not difficult to understand.

I'm glad for Fister, seriously. I felt badly for him going out over and over again knowing that giving up more than 0 runs was going to result in a ND or L for him. He was a trooper. So was Vargas for that matter. Nothing but well wishes for both.

 

[NWinAZ]

Fister trade was bad from the minute they announced it.

Vargas trade was good for M's from the start since in theory it should be easier to sign a SP free agent than a free agent hitter so replacing Vargas, again in theory, should have been the move to make while adding a legit MLB hitter in Morales.

 

[dude82]

I think with Fister it was a "strike while the iron is hot" type of thing. He was pitching really well, the Mariners had a ton of pitching set to come up over the next few years and maybe they thought that, as good as he was before he was traded was as good as he was ever going to get, so they better trade him while he still had that much value. I don't know. I also don't know why they wouldn't trade Vargas at that time either. Maybe what I'm saying is a bunch of crap, but I'm just trying to look at it from their POV to figure out why they would make that trade at that time.