Game Thread: Chicago Bears @ Seattle Seahawks

[HaroldSeattle]

It just amazes me how fickle fans can be. This guy was considered one of the best 3 QBs in the game last year. He gets hurt this year and all of the sudden fans want to dump him and roll the dice on..... what?

I don't think that's accurate IMO. It's about where are the Seahawks roster wise and RW age as much as his performance. To quote Branch Rickey trade a player a year early rather then a year late. I feel some are fooling themselves into to thinking a new staff would turn water into wine. Realistically a new staff likely bombs give the holes on the roster, age of some of the better players, lack of draft capitol and cap space.
So for me it's about accepting the need for a rebuild. I don't think Pete wants to go through that at his age , if he was, I think he is better qualified then any new hire, So it may be necessary, but for me it's with reluctance. I'd rather Pete embrace the challenge and do it again. In any case I just don't feel a rebuild meshes with RW age and him winning a few extra games in a season actually is counter productive to a rebuild. A trade would be right for both the Seahawks and RW, as painful as it is......

 

[HaroldSeattle]

A few clarifications here. Drew Brees played until he was 41. Eli was 38. Roehtlisberger is 40 and still playing. Phillip Rivers was 39. Aaron Rodgers is 38 and won an MVP at age 37. Russell Wilson just turned 33. Peyton won an MVP at 37.

Only Rodgers has continued to play at a high level and Peyton for one season but he fell off the cliff the following season. Also all those QBs are pocket passers and like Boogie I don't feel RW is going to age well now that his legs are not what they once were..

 

[flyerhawk]

I don't think that's accurate IMO. It's about where are the Seahawks roster wise and RW age as much as his performance. To quote Branch Rickey trade a player a year early rather then a year late. I feel some are fooling themselves into to thinking a new staff would turn water into wine. Realistically a new staff likely bombs give the holes on the roster, age of some of the better players, lack of draft capitol and cap space.
So for me it's about accepting the need for a rebuild. I don't think Pete wants to go through that at his age , if he was, I think he is better qualified then any new hire, So it may be necessary, but for me it's with reluctance. I'd rather Pete embrace the challenge and do it again. In any case I just don't feel a rebuild meshes with RW age and him winning a few extra games in a season actually is counter productive to a rebuild. A trade would be right for both the Seahawks and RW, as painful as it is......

Russ JUST turned 33. You acted like he's nearing 40.

If we dump Russ then we might as well dump Metcalf and Lockett. And we can resign ourselves to single win seasons for the foreseeable future as we vainly hope to hit the draft jackpot by being perpetually shitty until we get lucky and find a competent QB. I've been watching this go on in New York for the past 5 years and neither team is any closer to be a contender than they were 5 years ago.

I wish that Pete were 61 rather than 71 but he isn't. So I think we have no choice but to move on from him.

 

[MrS]

And then what? Hope that whatever picks we get for Wilson will turn into a great QB while we wallow in mediocrity for the next 3 years?

Maybe we should just go 1-16 next year so we can get the No. 1 pick and hope that whoever the best QB in that draft is will turn into a Hall of Famer. That's worked out so well for the Jags and the Jets and the Giants.

I think some Seahawk fans were spoiled because of the Paul Allen era and don't realize he isn't around anymore.

we are a 5 win team RIGHT NOW, statistically among the worst teams in the league with carroll, schneider, and wilson. its time to move on from all of them, its whats best for the team and for wilson. he isnt winning shit with us he might have a chance on another team.

How do you know it'll be hot garbage with a whole new coaching staff? Just because the FO gets a top 5 pick it's still 50/50 if the QB turns out good. If wrong, you'll be wishing Wilson was here.

we have no cap space we have no draft picks, its going to be essentially the same team with the same people running it. I have no reason to think otherwise.

It'll be much worse if Russ is traded and they draft a Sam Darnold type player. Hello multiple losing seasons and coaching carrousel.

multiple losing seasons are here whether you like it or not.

I don't know how old folks are here. But I remember the 90s and how miserable it was to be a Seahawk fan. I have no desire to go back to that.

We had an owner that intentionally drove the team into the ground so that he could move it, the idea that the only thing standing between us and a rerun of that is russell wilson is ridiculous sensationalism.

The only way we should keep him is if he takes a 50% pay cut and agrees to be a game manager and stops trying to be the hero and chucking the ball away. thats not his personality though so it likely will not be acceptable to him.

 

[flyerhawk]

Only Rodgers has continued to play at a high level and Peyton for one season but he fell off the cliff the following season. Also all those QBs are pocket passers and like Boogie I don't feel RW is going to age well now that his legs are not what they once were..

Again, you are acting like Russ is the same age at Rodgers. He's 5 years younger.

Trading Russ now makes no sense. He is probably at the LOWEST trade value of his entire career right now. Getting 2 1st round draft picks for him would be suicidal.

 

[flyerhawk]

we are a 5 win team RIGHT NOW, statistically among the worst teams in the league with carroll, schneider, and wilson. its time to move on from all of them, its whats best for the team and for wilson. he isnt winning shit with us he might have a chance on another team.

It's amazing how, no matter where everyone else is, you ALWAYS are pushing for the more extreme option. And when we are 2-14 in 2 years you'll be calling for a new GM and new coach and new QB. And then 2 years after that. And so on and so on.

The good teams don't blow everything up and just hope for the best. The Steelers aren't going to get rid of Big Ben, Tomlin and Colbert this offseason.

we have no cap space we have no draft picks, its going to be essentially the same team with the same people running it. I have no reason to think otherwise.

Our projected cap space for 2022 is 52 million dollars right now. They have 6 draft picks next year. How bout knock off the hyperbole?

multiple losing seasons are here whether you like it or not.

Well blowing it all up, closing our eyes and wishing for the best is gonna guarantee a lot more than a couple of losing seasons.

We had an owner that intentionally drove the team into the ground so that he could move it, the idea that the only thing standing between us and a rerun of that is russell wilson is ridiculous sensationalism.

You have that backwards. The team was terrible for YEARS. Behring didn't start trying to move the team until 95. And he certainly wasn't the reason we drafted Dan McGwire or Rick Mirer or Kelly Stouffer.

The only way we should keep him is if he takes a 50% pay cut and agrees to be a game manager and stops trying to be the hero and chucking the ball away. thats not his personality though so it likely will not be acceptable to him.

Yeah that makes sense. Maybe he should pay the Seahawks for the privilege of playing with them.

Wilson plays within the system that Pete wants him to play in.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Again, you are acting like Russ is the same age at Rodgers. He's 5 years younger.

QBs playing well into their late 30s is the exception and almost always that exception is a pocket passer.

Trading Russ now makes no sense. He is probably at the LOWEST trade value of his entire career right now. Getting 2 1st round draft picks for him would be suicidal.

Well the Seahawks may have waited a year too long, because I agree that his trade value has dropped like a rock. Still it only takes one team willing to make a big offer and is worth exploring.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

If we dump Russ then we might as well dump Metcalf and Lockett. And we can resign ourselves to single win seasons for the foreseeable future as we vainly hope to hit the draft jackpot by being perpetually shitty until we get lucky and find a competent QB. I've been watching this go on in New York for the past 5 years and neither team is any closer to be a contender than they were 5 years ago.

IMO tough times ahead no matter which direction the Seahawks go with the staff and RW and that sucks. At least Pete brought us a golden era that has lasted for some time. Folks want to give the credit to RW but it was Pete. Seahawks won the Super Bowl off the back of a dynamite defense and Lynch hard running, RW was asked to game manage up to that point.
I just don't see how the team can be turned around short term. I just don't. All we can hope for is that a rebuild will be successful and nothing like what has been going on in New York.

 

[flyerhawk]

QBs playing well into their late 30s is the exception and almost always that exception is a pocket passer.

How many QBs that have been to multiple Pro Bowls HAVEN'T played until their late 30s? Manning, Manning, Brees, Rivers, Big Ben, Rodgers, Brady, Marino, Elway, Montana... In fact MOST starting level QBs play into their late 30s unless injuries take them down.

Not sure why you keep talking about pocket passers in this context. Wilson is as much of a pocket passer as Rodgers or Elway. And it's not like his career has been injury riddled.

Well the Seahawks may have waited a year too long, because I agree that his trade value has dropped like a rock. Still it only takes one team willing to make a big offer and is worth exploring.

I think you guys have a grass is greener view of things and think all we need is a couple of bad seasons and we'll be right back at it. That just isn't very likely.

 

[flyerhawk]

IMO tough times ahead no matter which direction the Seahawks go with the staff and RW and that sucks. At least Pete brought us a golden era that has lasted for some time. Folks want to give the credit to RW but it was Pete. Seahawks won the Super Bowl off the back of a dynamite defense and Lynch hard running, RW was asked to game manage up to that point.
I just don't see how the team can be turned around short term. I just don't. All we can hope for is that a rebuild will be successful and nothing like what has been going on in New York.

Amazing how Russ goes from top 3 QB to game manager among fans so quickly. Prior to this season it was Russ carrying the team and overcoming poor coaching and drafts. Now he's just a game manager that was lucky to have Pete?

The recency bias here is just incredible.

Teams turn around all the time in very short order. The Bills were a perennial doormat. Then they got a competent QB and coach and now they are a top team. And I disagree that this team is bereft of talent. They have a +/- of -1. The same as the Ravens who are 8-7. The Falcons are 7-8 and have a -11 scoring differential. The truth of the matter is that this team has looked for ways to lose. But it has some pretty good talent. And if we were to bring in a new coach/GM that had a plan on how to maximize it, this team could easily be a playoff team. Hell if Russ didn't get hurt this year, does anyone really doubt that we would have a winning record right now?

 

[HaroldSeattle]

How many QBs that have been to multiple Pro Bowls HAVEN'T played until their late 30s? Manning, Manning, Brees, Rivers, Big Ben, Rodgers, Brady, Marino, Elway, Montana... In fact MOST starting level QBs play into their late 30s unless injuries take them down.

Not sure why you keep talking about pocket passers in this context. Wilson is as much of a pocket passer as Rodgers or Elway. And it's not like his career has been injury riddled.

I contend that almost all of them had their level of play fall off drastically as they aged. Also LOL at going way back to Montana era for examples.

As for RW being a pocket passer, he isn't really. He tends to focus on a single player, then lower his eyes to the pass rush, then break the pocket. His ability to extend plays with his legs while looking downfield and finding a open player was incredible effective way to play QB while he was able to do that, because no defense can stick like glue to receivers for a extended time. However those days are behind us now and RW ability to extend plays came at the cost of honing his skills in the pocket.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Amazing how Russ goes from top 3 QB to game manager among fans so quickly. Prior to this season it was Russ carrying the team and overcoming poor coaching and drafts. Now he's just a game manager that was lucky to have Pete?

He was a game manger the year the Seahawks won the Superbowl. He developed into a top notch QB after that. My point really was Pete rebuilt the Seahawks from the ground up and was the one to build a SuperBowl Champion and didn't need prime RW to do it. That doesn't mean I think RW is a career game manager that would be moronic.

Teams turn around all the time in very short order. The Bills were a perennial doormat. Then they got a competent QB and coach and now they are a top team. And I disagree that this team is bereft of talent. They have a +/- of -1. The same as the Ravens who are 8-7. The Falcons are 7-8 and have a -11 scoring differential. The truth of the matter is that this team has looked for ways to lose. But it has some pretty good talent. And if we were to bring in a new coach/GM that had a plan on how to maximize it, this team could easily be a playoff team. Hell if Russ didn't get hurt this year, does anyone really doubt that we would have a winning record right now?

Any thing is possible. I admire your optimism. The Bills went through a slate of coaches and QBs before they finally hit and they had a string of years with good draft position to stock the roster also. It really didn't happen in short order but took years of things falling into place to make it possible. We all know that the NFL by design makes it extremely difficult to maintain success.

 

[flyerhawk]

I contend that almost all of them had their level of play fall off drastically as they aged. Also LOL at going way back to Montana era for examples.

I listed 12 players. How many more would you like?

As for RW being a pocket passer, he isn't really. He tends to focus on a single player, then lower his eyes to the pass rush, then break the pocket. His ability to extend plays with his legs while looking downfield and finding a open player was incredible effective way to play QB while he was able to do that, because no defense can stick like glue to receivers for a extended time. However those days are behind us now and RW ability to extend plays came at the cost of honing his skills in the pocket.

And you think Aaron Rodgers is a pocket passer?

 

[flyerhawk]

He was a game manger the year the Seahawks won the Superbowl. He developed into a top notch QB after that. My point really was Pete rebuilt the Seahawks from the ground up and was the one to build a SuperBowl Champion and didn't need prime RW to do it. That doesn't mean I think RW is a career game manager that would be moronic.

And if the Seahawks didn't step in doo doo and draft Russell Wilson in the 3rd round in 2012, Pete Carroll probably isn't the Seahawks head coach in 2015. Let's remember that he put his hopes in Matt Flynn.

Any thing is possible. I admire your optimism. The Bills went through a slate of coaches and QBs before they finally hit and they had a string of years with good draft position to stock the roster also. It really didn't happen in short order but took years of things falling into place to make it possible. We all know that the NFL by design makes it extremely difficult to maintain success.

It's not really about optimism. It is about what is the path that gets us the best chance of success in the next 1-5 years. Beyond that, is too far to plan.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

I listed 12 players. How many more would you like?

Almost all had their level of play drop off with age and that would hold for as many as you want to list.

And you think Aaron Rodgers is a pocket passer?

Much more so then RW. His footwork in the pocket is incredible and RW footwork pales in comparison. RW ability to look downfield while running and throw accurately on the run is what made him special. Rodgers is capable of doing that also which is what you want to hone in on, but Rodger doesn't mine staying in the pocket, his footwork takes advantage of moving so even if a OL was getting beat he keep them between him and the rusher.

 

[returnofjakedog]

I don't think that we will move on from Russ this offseason. I do think there is a much bigger chance that PC and JS get moved, but even that is not a given.

I could see a scenerio where we trade DK. They don't use him as they should, with Lockett being RW's clear #1 option, and he can obviously be an issue with his attitude (and I can't really blame him). WRs can be replaced. Even a physical freak like DK isn't irreplaceable, while, as Seahawk's history has proven, a franchise QB is.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

And if the Seahawks didn't step in doo doo and draft Russell Wilson in the 3rd round in 2012, Pete Carroll probably isn't the Seahawks head coach in 2015. Let's remember that he put his hopes in Matt Flynn.

Well they did draft him and were very excited with his abilities and they didn't pin there hopes on Flynn per say, they had Tavaris Jackson in a trade, drafted RW and signed Flynn as a free agent. Not easy hitting on a QB and they explored every avenue. If Pete wasn't so set at winning every game , maybe they could of drafted Luck ( as it turns out RW was the better QB, but just saying....)

 

[flyerhawk]

Almost all had their level of play drop off with age and that would hold for as many as you want to list.

Well of course. I don't think anyone expects Russ to be a MVP candidate in his late 30s. But RIGHT NOW he's still in his prime.

Much more so then RW. His footwork in the pocket is incredible and RW footwork pales in comparison. RW ability to look downfield while running and throw accurately on the run is what made him special. Rodgers is capable of doing that also which is what you want to hone in on, but Rodger doesn't mine staying in the pocket, his footwork takes advantage of moving so even if a OL was getting beat he keep them between him and the rusher.

And Rodgers might be the greatest QB to ever play.

Russ is a unicorn in that he's a mobile QB that rarely gets hurt and was always a pass first QB. His body hasn't taken the beating that a lot of mobile QBs has because he was always smart about the hits he took.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

I don't think that we will move on from Russ this offseason. I do think there is a much bigger chance that PC and JS get moved, but even that is not a given.

It won't shock me if the Seahawks stood pat TBH.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Well of course. I don't think anyone expects Russ to be a MVP candidate in his late 30s. But RIGHT NOW he's still in his prime.

No he's not in his prime anymore because his strongest ability ( break the pocket and extend plays) is gone and I doubt it's coming back.