Griffin a top GM?

[msgkings322]

You actually don't know that, but keep being you. and you think they would have been smart to deal the Brooklyn pick for a guy like Jordan, too?

This is the common sense you speak of? Clearly, you just don't like Gilbert and that's cool. Doesn't come across as very likeable. Just own it. Nothing wrong with not liking him. No need to make things up to suit your agenda, though.

We could say the same about you and LeBron. You seem to have an agenda there too.

 

[tlance]

You actually don't know that, but keep being you. and you think they would have been smart to deal the Brooklyn pick for a guy like Jordan, too?

This is the common sense you speak of? Clearly, you just don't like Gilbert and that's cool. Doesn't come across as very likeable. Just own it. Nothing wrong with not liking him. No need to make things up to suit your agenda, though.

Did I say they should have dealt the pick for DeAndre Jordan?

No.

I have made no secret about not liking Gilbert.

But no matter how you try to twist facts, a “future” around Colin Sexton is a lot less likely to lead to a championship than any minute chance they might of had of resigning LeBron.

If it was my team, I would always want them to pursue extending a possible championship window over an almost sure future of mediocrity. That was why I applauded the Wizards hiring Scott Brooks even though I thought he was a lousy coach. It was possible his relationship with KD could have lured KD to DC and made them a contender.

It didn’t come close to working, and of course we are stuck with Scott Brooks (not really, they could fire him) but I respect teams taking bold chances to win.

Cleveland wasn’t willing to do that, and it cost them any real chance of winning another title.

 

[dtgold88]

We could say the same about you and LeBron. You seem to have an agenda there too.

OK. Can you tell me what it is so I'm aware? I've made many positive and negative comments about him. think he's at worst #2 for GOAT and will become #1. Love and appreciate he was largely responsible for the only title I've ever seen by a pro team. Think he's a bit of a narcissist and drama queen. Hoped he'd stay but has the right to go where he wanted.

 

[dtgold88]

Did I say they should have dealt the pick for DeAndre Jordan?

No.

I have made no secret about not liking Gilbert.

But no matter how you try to twist facts, a “future” around Colin Sexton is a lot less likely to lead to a championship than any minute chance they might of had of resigning LeBron.

If it was my team, I would always want them to pursue extending a possible championship window over an almost sure future of mediocrity. That was why I applauded the Wizards hiring Scott Brooks even though I thought he was a lousy coach. It was possible his relationship with KD could have lured KD to DC and made them a contender.

It didn’t come close to working, and of course we are stuck with Scott Brooks (not really, they could fire him) but I respect teams taking bold chances to win.

Cleveland wasn’t willing to do that, and it cost them any real chance of winning another title.

No one is twisting facts. I only question your baseless opinions which really is all you have. Nothing factual to support your agenda.

did they know when they acquired the Brooklyn pick it would drop to 8? was even still top 3 at the deadline if memory serves (maybe 1). Cannot say I saw a guy no one heard of at the time - Dimwiddie - leading them on a 2 week run to drop to 8th. You say they didn't deal the pick to win now but who were they dealing it to in order to beat GS? You claim there were better offers for Kyrie but there are not even any fake deals that were rumored that were much better....other than the one Griff turned down (ironic, huh?).

you've even said "no one was beating Durant led GS" haven't you?

You are all over the place. Should have just stopped at reminding me you hate Gilbert (not that I needed reminding). Might have been the only factual statement you made.

 

[tlance]

No one is twisting facts. I only question your baseless opinions which really is all you have. Nothing factual to support your agenda.

did they know when they acquired the Brooklyn pick it would drop to 8? was even still top 3 at the deadline if memory serves (maybe 1). Cannot say I saw a guy no one heard of at the time - Dimwiddie - leading them on a 2 week run to drop to 8th. You say they didn't deal the pick to win now but who were they dealing it to in order to beat GS? You claim there were better offers for Kyrie but there are not even any fake deals that were rumored that were much better....other than the one Griff turned down (ironic, huh?).

you've even said "no one was beating Durant led GS" haven't you?

You are all over the place. Should have just stopped at reminding me you hate Gilbert (not that I needed reminding). Might have been the only factual statement you made.

I have said multiple times that I am speculating.

You are too.

They weren’t going to beat GS no matter what. But had they done everything they could to maximize their assets to put the best possible players around LeBron, then maybe he stays. And maybe they get another title in ‘19 or ‘20.

He 100% for sure was going to leave after they:

1) Traded Kyrie for a package where the best asset in the package was a future draft pick
2) replaced the GM he liked with an inexperienced one

And my point all along, is that when you are Cleveland, and you have the best player in the world on your roster, you do whatever you can to keep him on your roster. Gilbert did that for 3 years, but not after 2017.

Because once he leaves, you ain’t winning anything again for a really, really long time.

And whether they have Sexton or Garland or Okoro and whoever else is going to be largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of the NBA.

 

[ElPatron1]

I have said multiple times that I am speculating.

You are too.

They weren’t going to beat GS no matter what. But had they done everything they could to maximize their assets to put the best possible players around LeBron, then maybe he stays. And maybe they get another title in ‘19 or ‘20.

He 100% for sure was going to leave after they:

1) Traded Kyrie for a package where the best asset in the package was a future draft pick
2) replaced the GM he liked with an inexperienced one

And my point all along, is that when you are Cleveland, and you have the best player in the world on your roster, you do whatever you can to keep him on your roster. Gilbert did that for 3 years, but not after 2017.

Because once he leaves, you ain’t winning anything again for a really, really long time.

And whether they have Sexton or Garland or Okoro and whoever else is going to be largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of the NBA.

Had Lebon not wanted Kevin Love so bad, and pissed off Kyrie maybe he would have also won more?

A lot of fans forget the NBA is a business. Winning or doing what is best for what the fans thinks is not a consideration by the owner. Some owners could care less about winning. NYC is the most valuable franchise in the NBA and has been terrible for decades. Why should the owner spend more money to win? Maybe making more money is considered a win to that owner?

Dan Gilbert may not care anymore after winning or wanted more control. Maybe like Cuban he is happy with his championship. Who knows?

What the fans want or think means very little...If your owner decides he doesn’t want to win anymore, or wants to pay less in luxury tax, or just get a star for cheap through the draft, the fan is shit out of luck

Do you blame Mickey Airison for not firing Spo and trading Bosh thus losing LeBron? They should have done everything they could to keep him, the same way the Cavs didn’t when they got him back. It’s easy to look back in retrospect, but the Cavs got 4 trips to the finals and a ring, not a bad run at the end of the day.

 

[dtgold88]

I have said multiple times that I am speculating.

You are too.

They weren’t going to beat GS no matter what. But had they done everything they could to maximize their assets to put the best possible players around LeBron, then maybe he stays. And maybe they get another title in ‘19 or ‘20.

He 100% for sure was going to leave after they:

1) Traded Kyrie for a package where the best asset in the package was a future draft pick
2) replaced the GM he liked with an inexperienced one

And my point all along, is that when you are Cleveland, and you have the best player in the world on your roster, you do whatever you can to keep him on your roster. Gilbert did that for 3 years, but not after 2017.

Because once he leaves, you ain’t winning anything again for a really, really long time.

And whether they have Sexton or Garland or Okoro and whoever else is going to be largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of the NBA.

you admit you are speculating then say 100% sure he leaves because they replaced a GM he liked even though you have no idea if he liked him. You also have no idea if there was a better offer for Kyrie. And, once again, if you are going by fake trades, the best one was one Griff turned down.......because Lebron would not commit to stay.

and don't forget if you believe every rumor Lebron wanted Jamal Crawford but they signed Osman instead.....and who signed Osman over Crawford? Griff.

You're all over the place.

 

[dtgold88]

Had Lebon not wanted Kevin Love so bad, and pissed off Kyrie maybe he would have also won more?

A lot of fans forget the NBA is a business. Winning or doing what is best for what the fans thinks is not a consideration by the owner. Some owners could care less about winning. NYC is the most valuable franchise in the NBA and has been terrible for decades. Why should the owner spend more money to win? Maybe making more money is considered a win to that owner?

Dan Gilbert may not care anymore after winning or wanted more control. Maybe like Cuban he is happy with his championship. Who knows?

What the fans want or think means very little...If your owner decides he doesn’t want to win anymore, or wants to pay less in luxury tax, or just get a star for cheap through the draft, the fan is shit out of luck

Do you blame Mickey Airison for not firing Spo and trading Bosh thus losing LeBron? They should have done everything they could to keep him, the same way the Cavs didn’t when they got him back. It’s easy to look back in retrospect, but the Cavs got 4 trips to the finals and a ring, not a bad run at the end of the day.

agree with some of your premise, but Miami traded Bosh? If you believe rumors, Lebron left Miami not just to finish what he started here, but also because Miami would not pay extra to sign guys Lebron wanted to keep.

Is it possible there were moves that could have been made to keep him? I guess. But if the guy would not even commit to stay with a deal for PG (if you believe the rumors) it seems likely he was gone no matter what they did. And that's fine. It's his right to go.

I could even agree it's possible Gilbert was fine with the one title and didn't really care if Lebron walked as having him around is no picnic for a FO.

as for your first comment? Love was a part of why they won a title. Probably have more if he played in 2015 or the cap explosion was not timed perfectly for GS to bring in Durant. Not sure it's a lock they win 1 and play for 3 others if they don't bring him in. Not sure how he pisses off Kyrie less other than not being great and Kyrie taking a back seat to an obviously better player.

 

[tlance]

you admit you are speculating then say 100% sure he leaves because they replaced a GM he liked even though you have no idea if he liked him. You also have no idea if there was a better offer for Kyrie. And, once again, if you are going by fake trades, the best one was one Griff turned down.......because Lebron would not commit to stay.

and don't forget if you believe every rumor Lebron wanted Jamal Crawford but they signed Osman instead.....and who signed Osman over Crawford? Griff.

You're all over the place.

Yes. Common sense man. The Cavs could have traded the Nets pick if nothing else. They didn’t.

Teams tend to value lottery picks. That is 100% certain.

 

[dtgold88]

Yes. Common sense man. The Cavs could have traded the Nets pick if nothing else. They didn’t.

Teams tend to value lottery picks. That is 100% certain.

Ok, but you don't know what they could have gotten for it. and let's not forget they were way over the cap. You seem to love rumors of fake deals but the big one then was for Jordan. That would have been horrific. and if they deal the pick, don't beat GS and Lebron still walks you would ripping them for trading the pick. and you'd have been right.

when you said it's no secret you don't like Gilbert should have just ended it there. You are entitled to that opinion (and cannot say I care for the guy) but no need to make things up to further your agenda.

 

[tlance]

Ok, but you don't know what they could have gotten for it. and let's not forget they were way over the cap. You seem to love rumors of fake deals but the big one then was for Jordan. That would have been horrific. and if they deal the pick, don't beat GS and Lebron still walks you would ripping them for trading the pick. and you'd have been right.

when you said it's no secret you don't like Gilbert should have just ended it there. You are entitled to that opinion (and cannot say I care for the guy) but no need to make things up to further your agenda.

It doesn’t matter.

They could have gotten something for it. They chose not to. I am not going to speculate about specific deals.

It was a very clear change in direction from 2017 and before when they were all in to win and put pieces around LeBron. Keeping the pick was a very clear message to LeBron that Gilbert was done catering to him.

And when you stop going all in to win with LeBron, he leaves.

Pretty easy to understand. Even Cleveland fans understand the change in MO by the Cav organization and that is a big part of why nobody was mad when he left the second time. That and the title.

And no, I would not have ripped them for trading the pick in an effort to keep LeBron.

 

[dtgold88]

It doesn’t matter.

They could have gotten something for it. They chose not to. I am not going to speculate about specific deals.

It was a very clear change in direction from 2017 and before when they were all in to win and put pieces around LeBron. Keeping the pick was a very clear message to LeBron that Gilbert was done catering to him.

And when you stop going all in to win with LeBron, he leaves.

Pretty easy to understand. Even Cleveland fans understand the change in MO by the Cav organization and that is a big part of why nobody was mad when he left the second time. That and the title.

And no, I would not have ripped them for trading the pick in an effort to keep LeBron.

Oh the humanity. You are ripping them for fake deals or nondeals, baseless rumors, etc. but if they traded the pick for, say Jordan, came up short and guys they could have had were flourishing elsewhere while Lebron is winning in LA you would not rip them for it?

OK. whatever you say.

 

[tlance]

Oh the humanity. You are ripping them for fake deals or nondeals, baseless rumors, etc. but if they traded the pick for, say Jordan, came up short and guys they could have had were flourishing elsewhere while Lebron is winning in LA you would not rip them for it?

OK. whatever you say.

I am ripping them for not trying to keep LeBron. And you know full well they didn’t.

 

[dtgold88]

I am ripping them for not trying to keep LeBron. And you know full well they didn’t.

Ok....but I don't know this. and neither do you. Being sure Lebron would commit before making a deal is far from not trying to keep Lebron.

But give me a minute.....I'm still laughing at your "I wouldn't blame Gilbert if he traded the Brooklyn pick (even if it got them nowhere)" comment. and, no, not out of context. You said it.

 

[trojanfan12]

but if they traded the pick for, say Jordan, came up short and guys they could have had were flourishing elsewhere while Lebron is winning in LA you would not rip them for it?

Not sure I follow your logic here. Why would someone rip a team for trying to keep their championship window open by appeasing the best player in the game?

 

[dtgold88]

Not sure I follow your logic here. Why would someone rip a team for trying to keep their championship window open by appeasing the best player in the game?

Because they'd have dealt arguably the top asset in the league for a regressing, overpaid player who would not have gotten them any further than they went? And possible someone used that asset on an exceptional young talent (assuming they picked SGA or Sexton) and set their rebuild back a couple years?

Keep in mind, the person we are talking about rips them for not making fake trades or because of baseless, made up rumors.

 

[trojanfan12]

Because they'd have dealt arguably the top asset in the league for a regressing, overpaid player who would not have gotten them any further than they went? And possible someone used that asset on an exceptional young talent (assuming they picked SGA or Sexton) and set their rebuild back a couple years?

Maybe. But I honestly don't see where anyone would rip Gilbert or the Cavs for trying to keep their championship window open. Seeing how things turned out, maybe the Raptors title goes to the Cavs if they made a trade and it enticed Lebron to stay?

And if Lebron still left, they could start moving players for picks/expiring contracts to rebuild. Then Gilbert could easily shift any blame to Lebron by simply saying, "I did everything I could to get him to stay".

Maybe it sets your rebuild back a season or 2, but it may also have resulted in at least 1 more deep playoff run.

 

[dtgold88]

Maybe. But I honestly don't see where anyone would rip Gilbert or the Cavs for trying to keep their championship window open. Seeing how things turned out, maybe the Raptors title goes to the Cavs if they made a trade and it enticed Lebron to stay?

And if Lebron still left, they could start moving players for picks/expiring contracts to rebuild. Then Gilbert could easily shift any blame to Lebron by simply saying, "I did everything I could to get him to stay".

Maybe it sets your rebuild back a season or 2, but it may also have resulted in at least 1 more deep playoff run.

Pretty sure most know he'd do anything he could to get him to stay. You really think Lebron didn't know he was going to LA no matter what? Had a deal to bring in PG if one believes Griff and Lebron still would not commit to stay.

Went to the Finals AND had a lottery pick, and he chose to go to a team that hadn't made the playoffs in 5 seasons at the time? Not exactly sure what level of confidence LA could have provided he couldn't get here. Nice area, has a huge home there. Not crazy to think it's just where he and his family wanted to live.

 

[trojanfan12]

Pretty sure most know he'd do anything he could to get him to stay. You really think Lebron didn't know he was going to LA no matter what? Had a deal to bring in PG if one believes Griff and Lebron still would not commit to stay.

And I'd say I'm pretty sure that most know that if Lebron was handed what he thought was a legit title opportunity, he'd stay.

Optically at least, it looks like Gilbert didn't do everything he could. If the PG deal was really there, he should have done it, imo. If Lebron left, then maybe he could pivot to another star player or, as I suggested earlier...start moving players for picks and expiring contracts.

End of the day, unless one comes out and says "Okay, this is what really happened..." and the other signs off on it, we're never going to know exactly what, if anything could have enticed Lebron to stay or if Gilbert really just wanted his franchise back and told Lebron "go have fun in L.A.".

 

[dtgold88]

And I'd say I'm pretty sure that most know that if Lebron was handed what he thought was a legit title opportunity, he'd stay.

Optically at least, it looks like Gilbert didn't do everything he could. If the PG deal was really there, he should have done it, imo. If Lebron left, then maybe he could pivot to another star player or, as I suggested earlier...start moving players for picks and expiring contracts.

End of the day, unless one comes out and says "Okay, this is what really happened..." and the other signs off on it, we're never going to know exactly what, if anything could have enticed Lebron to stay or if Gilbert really just wanted his franchise back and told Lebron "go have fun in L.A.".

Latter certainly possible, but he chose a team that hadn't exactly shown they were all that smart the prior half decade which is why I don't think he even cared what the Cavs did. and, yeah, possible Lebron was going to LA regardless AND was more than happy to leave Gilbert again.

FYI, reason I don't disagree with your comments (and did others in the thread) is you have not presented baseless rumors or opinions as fact. As for the PG deal, per Griffin, himself, he was the one who turned it down. Sure, Gilbert could overruled him but then he gets blamed for not letting his GM do his job. Guy cannot win with some.